Veteran Patton 16" 126v 2220wh

[Bustapalapno]

On 3/13/2023 at 9:52 AM, jimjam.nyc said:

Now, i am not one to chase voltage or speed.. I am probably not even perceptive enough to REALLY know the difference when riding. (i say probably because i never rode anything above 100V). 

I don't think more than 100V is necessary to make a great wheel. However, if you have ever done a pull coming out of a red light to 25 mph you can instantly tell the difference. I've done this side-by-side with a Begode Hero (100v) vs Master, S22, Sherman-S, Commander Pro, and others. The higher voltage wheels feel and are faster off the line which can be nice when trying to get ahead of traffic, a common occurrence in dense urban areas. 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Cobaltsaber said:

Actually its the opposite. Theoretically a higher voltage system would draw less current for the equal amount of power. If you are riding the same speed across all wheels, the higher voltage wheel would be more efficient. Someone did a range test on an EX30, commander pro and sherman-s and the 134v wheels beat the 100v sherman-s in range with similar average speeds.

Higher voltages give you a higher top speed and slightly better efficiency, but that efficiency is moot if it causes the rider to simply ride faster. One benefit is that higher voltages charge way faster. Both charging the same amperage, the 134v battery charges ~30% faster than a 100v battery. It also pulls more wattage however, so blowing outlets on grouprides become more of an issue the higher voltages climb

The only downside I see to going with higher voltages is that your components need to be built better to handle the higher voltage. Which means manufacturers moving onto a new higher voltage may encounter issues. Given the entire EUC market and first batch reputation, I dont think its a problem because of the voltage specifically, but just something to note. Also with the same capacity battery, only difference being a higher voltage, you lose some cells in parallel. This means you get less redundancy and more voltage sag running a higher voltage configuration.

If the pattan had a choice of 100v or 126v, unless you needed your old 100v chargers to be compatible with your new wheel, I would pick the higher voltage. The upsides outweigh the downsides

Waa?? How can something that uses more volts. Be more efficient? What kind of dark sorcery is this!!!!

If both wheels have same amount of cells in the battery pack. 100v vs 126v. 100v should have bigger pack. 126v should have smaller pack. (Safer would be 100v one right? Sag, redundancy, so on.. - 126v.) Cells in parallel..

End result? They both have about same range, if 126v is more efficient.  But 100v is safer. (My point stay's the same. I'll take 100v over 126v.)

Edited March 14, 2023 by Funky

[CrabChampion]

14 minutes ago, Funky said:

Waa?? How can something that uses more volts. Be more efficient? What kind of dark sorcery is this!!!!

If both wheels have same amount of cells in the battery pack. 100v vs 126v. 100v should have bigger pack. 126v should have smaller pack. (Safer would be 100v one right? Sag, redundancy, so on.. - 126v.) Cells in parallel..

End result? They both have about same range, if 126v is more efficient.  But 100v is safer. (My point stay's the same. I'll take 100v over 126v.)

Its about the wattage. V(voltage) x A(amperage) = W(watts). If you increase the voltage, you can use less amps to push the same amount of wattage. Therefore if you ride similar speeds that require a certain amount of wattage, you pull less amps and get more battery life. There are more factors at play obviously, but thats just theoretically how it works. It seems to be proven in real world riding scenarios

Think about the cell count for a sec. The sherman-s and ex30 are both 3600wh with a total of 192 cells. The sherman-s is a 24s8p battery configuration. The ex30 is a 32s6p configuration. Neither pack is "bigger" than the other. They just have different series and parallel counts. More parallel does mean you get more redundancy as I said in my previous comment. A 6p on the 134v pack is still plenty of redundancy compared to the 1800wh and 2200wh wheels though that typically run 4p. The jump from 6p to 8p isnt as noticeable in big wheels boasting 3600wh.

I still think the pattan at 126v will be fine. The s22 has the same configuration. The limiting factor on the s22 is the controller, not the voltage or battery configuration

[Flygonial]

9 minutes ago, Funky said:

Waa?? How can something that uses more volts. Be more efficient? What kind of dark sorcery is this!!!!

If both wheels have same amount of cells in the battery pack. 100v vs 126v. 100v should have bigger pack. 126v should have smaller pack. (Safer would be 100v one right? Sag, redundancy, so on.. - 126v.) Cells in parallel..

End result? They both have about same range?  But 100v is safer. (My point stay's the same. I'll take 100v over 126v.)

I was gonna right a bunch of math out but Cobaltsaber already outlined everything more concisely, the only thing I'd add is that since a higher voltage pack would draw proportionately less current for the same wattage, each cell would be under less stress anyways and would likely have similar sag to the pack with more in parallel. As has already been stated, people usually feel encouraged to ride higher voltage wheels more aggressively and that would end up eating battery faster and you'd likely see more sag as a result, but the fact that the power is there is the main benefit.

That aside, I feel there is another argument to be made for 100V's favor, that being smaller chargers. Many of us already carry a lot to group rides and the charger is often among the heaviest things we carry around. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it is something. At at the end of the day, you too are entitled to your own opinion even if I think 126V is fine.

[UPONIT]

41 minutes ago, Funky said:

Waa?? How can something that uses more volts. Be more efficient? What kind of dark sorcery is this!!!!

If both wheels have same amount of cells in the battery pack. 100v vs 126v. 100v should have bigger pack. 126v should have smaller pack. (Safer would be 100v one right? Sag, redundancy, so on.. - 126v.) Cells in parallel..

End result? They both have about same range, if 126v is more efficient.  But 100v is safer. (My point stay's the same. I'll take 100v over 126v.)

Same amount of work done = same power drawn from batteries and used.

The advantages lie in all the details @Cobaltsaber described.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Flygonial said:

That aside, I feel there is another argument to be made for 100V's favor, that being smaller chargers. Many of us already carry a lot to group rides and the charger is often among the heaviest things we carry around. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it is something. At at the end of the day, you too are entitled to your own opinion even if I think 126V is fine.

Don't really care about charger. As I'm one of those guys who charge wheel once/twice a week. Or every second day, if I'm feeling adventurous and go for longer ride.

 

 

I thought that bigger voltage wheel would use more power... To get same amount performance/speed of smaller voltage wheel. If it doesn't consume more power, then yeah - i see now..

Edited March 14, 2023 by Funky

[Murdomeek]

On 3/12/2023 at 5:29 PM, Funky said:

100v wheel which has 1200-1500Wh battery. Max speed ~60km/h and weighs 25-30kg would be amazing.

16X/18XL and RS have been last good wheels in weight to performance. That was under 30kg.

Your ideal lightweight wheels already exist: 16x, 18xl, nikola, v11, s18, tesla V2, tesla v3.

Anyone in your situation would have already bought those models.  High power, high speed EUC's didn't even exist 3 years ago.  They are only JUST discovering a whole new market segment.  A market with riders that are willing to pay top dollar and upgrade every 1-2 years. 

This is so much more profitable than remaking a low-profit 16x that users like you would only buy once every 5 years.  Maybe wait 2 more years and they will update those models for riders like you.  But it is simply not profitable enough to be renewing them every year.  

 

Money talks. And right now, they are selling out of the new powerful wheels every shipment. 

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, Murdomeek said:

Money talks. And right now, they are selling out of the new powerful wheels every shipment. 

Excluding the Mten4, the T4 is the lightest wheel that Alienrides sells.

At EEVEES, the Sherman-S is currently out selling the V8F, S18, Mten4, V10F, T3, 16X, and T4.

 

 

[Funky]

23 minutes ago, Murdomeek said:

Your ideal lightweight wheels already exist: 16x, 18xl, nikola, v11, s18, tesla V2, tesla v3.

Anyone in your situation would have already bought those models.  High power, high speed EUC's didn't even exist 3 years ago.  They are only JUST discovering a whole new market segment.  A market with riders that are willing to pay top dollar and upgrade every 1-2 years. 

This is so much more profitable than remaking a low-profit 16x that users like you would only buy once every 5 years.  Maybe wait 2 more years and they will update those models for riders like you.  But it is simply not profitable enough to be renewing them every year.  

 

Money talks. And right now, they are selling out of the new powerful wheels every shipment. 

Same time ignoring any "newcomers" and selling out only for veteran riders. Do you think any newcomer would like to buy 3 years old wheel? Most shops, etc.. are selling new models, which again are only big/heavy top notch performing 4000$ wheels. Anyone who would walk in a shop and would look at them would walk out after ~5 minutes. If he didn't know about small/older models.

 

Not everyone wants/need those big high power euc's. I have my 18xl. And i would like to get something new also. Something new that is in same weight as my 18xl, but performs better. Or performs the same, but is lighter. If 18xl would come out with real smart BMS. Have real 3" tire. Maybe be 5-10km/h faster. But still be under 30kg weight. I would sell my exiting 18xl and buy the new one instantly. (Or at least after 3rd batch.. When problems have been fixed.)

Any new wheel made will be sold out in first shipment.. They all have been..

Edited March 14, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Excluding the Mten4, the T4 is the lightest wheel that Alienrides sells.

At EEVEES, the Sherman-S is currently out selling the V8F, S18, Mten4, V10F, T3, 16X, and T4.

 

 

And before Sherman S was released.. My guess would be that T4 was selling the best. And before T4 was released. My guess that Master was selling the best. Funny how that works - Huh?

That newest wheel sells the best....... Same thing like those zombies - who buy new iPhone every year.  

Edited March 14, 2023 by Funky

[Murdomeek]

10 minutes ago, Funky said:

Not everyone wants/need those big high power euc's. I have my 18xl. And i would like to get something new also. Something new that is in same weight as my 18xl, but performs better. Or performs the same, but is lighter. If 18xl would come out with real smart BMS. Have real 3" tire. Maybe be 5-10km/h faster. But still be under 30kg weight. I would sell my exiting 18xl and buy the new one instantly. (Or at least after 3rd batch.. When problems have been fixed.)

18xl is $2050 at ewheels right now.  

How much would your 'upgraded' 18xl be sold for?  $2300 seems fair for modern upgrades.  Who would buy the upgraded 18xl when you can add another $50 and you can get a full suspension T4?

What if they kept the price the same?  Why would a manufacturer waste resources on designing an upgraded 18xl to sell for the same price. When the current 18xl's are selling just fine at $2050?

[techyiam]

22 minutes ago, Funky said:

That newest wheel sells the best....... Same thing like those zombies - who buy new iPhone every year.

Can't comment on the new iPhone zombies, but wheels such as the Master Pro, EX30, and even the V13 are not selling that well at EEVEES. 

For a big heavy wheel, the Sherman-S appears to be an exception at EEVEES. 

[Funky]

52 minutes ago, Murdomeek said:

18xl is $2050 at ewheels right now.  

How much would your 'upgraded' 18xl be sold for?  $2300 seems fair for modern upgrades.  Who would buy the upgraded 18xl when you can add another $50 and you can get a full suspension T4?

What if they kept the price the same?  Why would a manufacturer waste resources on designing an upgraded 18xl to sell for the same price. When the current 18xl's are selling just fine at $2050?

I got mine 18xl for 1850Euro last year, in local shop.

I personally don't look at price much. But i would prefer it to be under 2500$.

Not everyone wants suspension. (Doesn't help, that every new wheel has one now as default..)

Why would manufacturers do anything at all? What's the point even making new wheels? What's the point even waking up in morning? What's the point in life?

New wheel - boost in sales. They can add only real 3" tire and that wheel will sell much better over original 18xl which had 2.5" tire. Any small upgrade ever made will boost sales in their favor. Some people will even buy the same model, if it came out in different color.  

36 minutes ago, techyiam said:

For a big heavy wheel, the Sherman-S appears to be an exception at EEVEES. 

I personally think S-S sells well, simply because of it's one of a kind suspension design. No linkage system.

Even if S-S came out with same design, but literally everything 2x smaller. 16", 1200-1500Wh, 60km/h speed. It also would sell very good. No need to be a fortune teller, to see that happening.

36 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Can't comment on the new iPhone zombies, but wheels such as the Master Pro, EX30, and even the V13 are not selling that well at EEVEES. 

It seems those wheels are to heavy.   Or maybe the price is the problem? Or maybe overkill in general.

I personally don't even bother looking anything heavier than 30kg. Why? Because i don't need those wheels. - simple.

Everyone has their "sweet spot" at riding speed, range. I think most people would want something "new" about the same. But in lighter weight or better performance.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Funky

[Flygonial]

3 hours ago, Funky said:

Don't really care about charger. As I'm one of those guys who charge wheel once/twice a week. Or every second day, if I'm feeling adventurous and go for longer ride.

 

 

I thought that bigger voltage wheel would use more power... To get same amount performance/speed of smaller voltage wheel. If it doesn't consume more power, then yeah - i see now..

I know that much is true of you: mostly commuter use and the like. I was just throwing that out as a general statement, and thought it was just a little relevant to the Patton as 2220 Wh isn't going to keep up with fast 50+ mile group rides (possibly even 40 mile rides as you might not be able to keep up with a fast pace at low battery safely) without midpoint charging. In that case, having a smaller charger is of benefit, though I admit it is marginal and probably would only matter to a few people.

[Funky]

15 minutes ago, Flygonial said:

I know that much is true of you: mostly commuter use and the like. I was just throwing that out as a general statement, and thought it was just a little relevant to the Patton as 2220 Wh isn't going to keep up with fast 50+ mile group rides (possibly even 40 mile rides as you might not be able to keep up with a fast pace at low battery safely) without midpoint charging. In that case, having a smaller charger is of benefit, though I admit it is marginal and probably would only matter to a few people.

Most people who are going on group rides and such have a multiple wheels, or bigger wheel.. Because they are actually riding everyday/everywhere. If people don't need to carry the wheel. They also will choose one of the top performing wheels.

I'm one of those "sidewalk crawlers" that don't need to do 50+ miles. And don't need to go blazing fast. I daily do ~5 miles.  Job/home. I like speed, but don't need range. Going 22-25mph is plenty on sidewalk. And have no need to ride with cars. (At least in my country.)

I would love fast wheel with ~1000Wh fast rechargeable battery. If only solid state batteries would come faster.. 30min 100% charge and all that goodness. <3

[Bustapalapno]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Most people who are going on group rides and such have a multiple wheels, or bigger wheel.. Because they are actually riding everyday/everywhere. If people don't need to carry the wheel. They also will choose one of the top performing wheels.

I'm one of those "sidewalk crawlers" that don't need to do 50+ miles. And don't need to go blazing fast. I daily do ~5 miles.  Job/home. I like speed, but don't need range. Going 22-25mph is plenty on sidewalk. And have no need to ride with cars. (At least in my country.)

I would love fast wheel with ~1000Wh fast rechargeable battery. If only solid state batteries would come faster.. 30min 100% charge and all that goodness. <3

25 is pretty fucking fast on a sidewalk! I would be terrified personally. 

[KiwiMark]

36 minutes ago, Bustapalapno said:

25 is pretty fucking fast on a sidewalk! I would be terrified personally. 

It is way to fast for some sidewalks I've ridden on and no problem on others - there are a lot of variables to consider. Obviously if there are pedestrians on the path then you need to slow down near them, it would be very foolish to ride near pedestrians, animals or children at those speeds . . . but an empty sidewalk with plenty of visibility?

[Mango]

[Funky]

3 hours ago, Bustapalapno said:

25 is pretty fucking fast on a sidewalk! I would be terrified personally. 

25mph is "slow" for some user's here.. I would say it's pretty fast.

My sidewalks are long and straight without blind points.. And I'm living in low pop city. Meaning my sidewalks are most times empty. My normal speed is 22mph in middle of city.  

Ofc i slow down around people down to walking speed - if need be...

Edited March 15, 2023 by Funky

[BKW]

 

[Bustapalapno]

8 hours ago, Mango said:

Honestly the improved trolley handle on this wheel bumps it up a whole letter grade for me. Depending on the actual weight and width this might be a sick commuter wheel. 

[Jrekt]

https://eevees.com/collections/veteran-sherman-vancouver/products/veteran-patton

 

$4199 CAD pre order at eevees

Edited March 15, 2023 by Jrekt

[BKW]

25 minutes ago, Bustapalapno said:

Honestly the improved trolley handle on this wheel bumps it up a whole letter grade for me. Depending on the actual weight and width this might be a sick commuter wheel. 

true. the trolley handles have never been perfected in my opinion, at least with veteran

[Flygonial]

Also glad to see a return to that trolley handle geometry after the Sherman-S missed in that regard. I doubt it’ll be problem free but should be a step in the right direction.

After discussing a bit with my local riders, many of them are not so hot on the wheel (“kind of useless” was expressed once). Good few insisted that the S22 being 20” was a boon for obstacles on trails (and jumps, with the suspension travel too), and that 18x3 is an awkward size that ends up without all the strengths of 20” or 16” wheels respectively. Opinions on the battery capacity were not glowing either, as that disqualifies it from being a great street wheel. It was argued that this just leaves it as a good commuter wheel and that it’s a significant premium to pay for that.

I feel a bit more optimistic about its future: don’t think it’ll fly off the shelves but it might be one of the wheels we consider a jack-of-all-trades, master of none. At a converted 3285/3066 USD it’s around the ballpark the S22 started at, and hopefully the suspension is just as plush as the Sherm-S while possibly addressing prior issues. People like me in my position were just looking for a wheel that could take them on a group ride while still doing everything from commuting to stunting pretty well. At the lower end, people might go for a V12, and someone looking for a premium option might look here at the Patton.

[Funky]

Still shit pedals i see..