INMOTION V12

[WillCO]

EUCO is shipping their V12's, and mine is on the way (pre-ordered July 8), expected before the coming weekend......and I'll probably wait to ride it 'till InMotion gives us an idea as to what's up w/the cut-outs.      

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, WillCO said:

EUCO is shipping their V12's, and mine is on the way (pre-ordered July 8), expected before the coming weekend......and I'll probably wait to ride it 'till InMotion gives us an idea as to what's up w/the cut-outs.      

Almost same day preorder for me, on its way as well (although probably later)

Likewise I'll wait.

Have you talked to EUCO about it tho? In case hardware needs to be replaced as a fix, it might be more efficient to leave it at their warehouse until the problem is solved.

Edited January 3, 2022 by supercurio

[WillCO]

2 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Have you talked about EUCO about it tho? In case hardware needs to be replaced as a fix, it might be more efficient to leave it at their warehouse until the problem is solved.

Thought about it, figured I'd rather have it in-hand rather than risk not being able to get one at all....

I'm guessing they'll still sell like hot-cakes, as there's probably a good percentage of folks who've not heard of the potential issues.

[mhpr262]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:38 PM, evans036 said:

FYI: i uploaded a display protector for the V12 to thingiverse:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5172878

 

What CAD software do you use? I got a 3D printer for Christmas and tried to get into FreeCAD to make some stuff for my EUC, but holy smokes that software is a bitch and a half to use. Super unintuitive. I could more or less figure out Inkscape on my own, but Im lost with FreeCAD.

[goatman]

the hardware guy on youtube gives good tutorials on freecad, i was designing/printing motor adapter plates and shaft couplings in the first week having never done cad in my life thanks to him

 

[Steve Evans]

3 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

What CAD software do you use? I got a 3D printer for Christmas and tried to get into FreeCAD to make some stuff for my EUC, but holy smokes that software is a bitch and a half to use. Super unintuitive. I could more or less figure out Inkscape on my own, but Im lost with FreeCAD.

yeah, the CAD softwares all seem to have a steep learning curves.

 

this part was developed using Solidworks

 

good luck,

steve

[Gixxer]

Just pulled my gear out to get some pictures after my v12 cutout. It could have been a lot worse but its still not great.

jacket.jfif pants.jfif helmet.jfif

Edited January 3, 2022 by RagingGrandpa
(image URL bugfix)

[supercurio]

@Gixxer probably not something to think about too much so feel free to completely ignore my question.

Adding the cost of busted gear to the hospital bill, excluding the health and potential work losses, how much Inmotion's QC fail is gonna cost you in total?

[joeepark]

I got word from ewheels current v12 pre-orders are delayed till March-May as they are fixing QC issues. Good to see inmotion cares about the safety of their customers. I feel like some companies would still ship out some orders considering how close they are to the promised delivery date. +1 for inmotion and ewheels for looking out for their customers! 

[Gixxer]

6 minutes ago, supercurio said:

@Gixxer probably not something to think about too much so feel free to completely ignore my question.

Adding the cost of busted gear to the hospital bill, excluding the health and potential work losses, how much Inmotion's QC fail is gonna cost you in total?

Hmmm $260 + tax for the helmet 

$70 + tax for the gloves 

$180 + tax for the jacket 

$150 +tax for the pants 

$240 +tax and shipping  for new clark pedals

$560 2 sick days used

I haven't gotten the bill for the hospital yet so lets just put $500 there 

So $900 in gear and accessories that got borked 

Gear + time + medical is now at $1960

counting the $2,200 wheel that's bricked and no longer has my trust we're up to $4160

 

 

[.....]

6 hours ago, joeepark said:

I got word from ewheels current v12 pre-orders are delayed till March-May as they are fixing QC issues. Good to see inmotion cares about the safety of their customers. I feel like some companies would still ship out some orders considering how close they are to the promised delivery date. +1 for inmotion and ewheels for looking out for their customers! 

Can we give them credit for 'caring' about customers' safety, as they let this happen to begin with? I can give e-wheels a little leeway, as they have to move a few units before they even can be aware that they need step in and protect their customers. However, manufacturers that 'care' rather than hurry for profit, are responsible for testing PRIOR to release. Nope, they got no free pass from me. Unacceptable! I won't fault e-wheels as I've seen Jason take losses because he really does care. I wonder who's idea the *'soft recall' (is inmotion buying back all 1st gen wheels and compensating retailers?) was. Was it because Inmo 'cares' about us, or 'cares' about profits? Perhaps its that a retailer cared enough to put the pressure on? I think its total bullshit, ALL of it. Proper product testing and QC would be the sign of someone who cares...

I'll be skipping Gotway and Inmo for another cycle it seems. Sadly, I'm running out of options. If this keeps up, I guess I'll be on my old wheels until they betray me. Itll become time to take a close look at the industry in total by then. If the status quo doesnt change by the time my wheels die, I'll invest in a jet pack instead. Hell, same dangers it seems, but at least It'll be obvious.

*soft recall.  (I totally made that up. Referring to recalling or stalling orders due to defects but not replacing already used wheels)

Edited January 4, 2022 by ShanesPlanet
spelling, typos, the usual

[supercurio]

@Gixxer damn, thanks for sharing this dreadful accounting exercise with us.

I'm hoping that you can get at the very least a full exchange or refund on the wheel itself depending on your willingness to trust a V12 again.

It wouldn't be a stretch IMO to ask for some kind of compensation from Inmotion as well for failing to alert in time customers like you, while they already knew of the problem.

About altering customers, although it's good that @Cecily Inmotion posted an official statement as a forum post in this thread, the visibly and reach are very limited. I expected the same alert would be broadcasted on their Instagram and Facebook pages without delay but it hasn't been the case.

Edited January 4, 2022 by supercurio

[Gixxer]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Can we give them credit for 'caring' aboput customers safety, as they let this happen to begin with? I can give e-wheels a little leeway, as they have to move a few units before the even can be aware that they need step in and protect their customers. However, manufacturers that 'care' rather than hurry for profit, are responsible for testing PRIOR to release. Nope, they got no free pass from me. Unacceptable! I won't fault e-wheels as I've seen Jason take losses because he really does care. I wonder who's idea the 'soft recall' (is inmotion buying back all 1st gen wheels and compensating retailers?) was. Was it because Inmo 'cares' about us, or 'cares' about profits? Perhaps its that a retailer cared enough to put the pressure on? I think its total bullshit, ALL of it. Proper product testing and QC would be the sign of someone who cares...

Yeah Jason responded quickly to my emails, was extremely concerned about my well being and followed up just as fast. T̶h̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶m̶o̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶c̶r̶e̶w̶ ̶h̶a̶s̶ ̶g̶i̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶m̶e̶ ̶0̶ ̶r̶e̶p̶l̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶e̶m̶a̶i̶l̶. I will buy from E wheels again without a second thought. Inmotion has some fires to put out.

 

*Edit*

Well i'm big enough to admit when I was wrong. I dug through my spam folder and it appears google flagged it as spam so they did reply 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Gixxer

[.....]

49 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Wouldn't be a stretch IMO to ask for some kind of compensation from Inmotion as well for failing to alert in time customers like you, while they already knew of the problem.

About altering customers, although it's good that @Cecily Inmotion posted an official statement as a forum post in this thread, the visibly and reach are very limited. I expected the same alert would be broadcasted on their Instagram and Facebook pages without delay but it hasn't been the case.

its not a stretch to ask. It would be a stretch to think it would help. Product and financial liability isnt a concern for euc companies... ANY of them. If they concede to damages once, they will have TONS of cases to settle. People keep getting hurt by equipment failure. Property keeps getting damaged by equipment failure. I have yet to hear of a settlement from the overseas manufacturers.

Lets see if a proper product recall EVER gets done on ANY of these wheels. Im not a gambling man, but I KNOW where I'd place my bets. I trust Jason for a reason. Altho, I feel badly for him also. Could you imagine having to sell these and be the middleman to these companies? He has his n*ts out on the butcher block everyday and somehow goes to work the next one. As much as 3rd party retailers will try, they simply CANNOT afford to offer compensation for personal damages (as a matter of course). Same as mentioned before. IF a company pays out in damages, they are accepting fault. I continue to trust Jason's crew, but I also know that he/they can only do so much.

Edited January 4, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[joeepark]

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Can we give them credit for 'caring' about customers' safety, as they let this happen to begin with? I can give e-wheels a little leeway, as they have to move a few units before they even can be aware that they need step in and protect their customers. However, manufacturers that 'care' rather than hurry for profit, are responsible for testing PRIOR to release. Nope, they got no free pass from me. Unacceptable! I won't fault e-wheels as I've seen Jason take losses because he really does care. I wonder who's idea the 'soft recall' (is inmotion buying back all 1st gen wheels and compensating retailers?) was. Was it because Inmo 'cares' about us, or 'cares' about profits? Perhaps its that a retailer cared enough to put the pressure on? I think its total bullshit, ALL of it. Proper product testing and QC would be the sign of someone who cares...

I'll be skipping Gotway and Inmo for another cycle it seems. Sadly, I'm running out of options. If this keeps up, I guess I'll be on my old wheels until they betray me. Itll become time to take a close look at the industry in total by then. If the status quo doesnt change by the time my wheels die, I'll invest in a jet pack instead. Hell, same dangers it seems, but at least It'll be obvious.

Well you're talking about a few wheels out of all the v12's out there. Not every single one is broken at the moment. There are a ton of people riding their v12's. What would you do if you were in their current situation? Do you think they knew these wheels would have defects? Do you know how many other companies have manufacturing defects? It's possible. Stop acting like some crying baby. 

Inmotion is doing what's necessary to fix a problem that's out there. They are communicating to us through these forums and taking the necessary steps to stop more defected wheels from entering the market. They are also sending replacement parts for people who have defected wheels.

If they were a company who didn't care about what happens to their customers then they would continue to sell their wheels. Instead they are recalling the wheels which are probably sitting at the port almost ready to be shipped out and taking a loss to fix it before it becomes a bigger issue. 

But keep on crying because that seems to be working for you. 

[Tawpie]

47 minutes ago, joeepark said:

Well you're talking about a few wheels out of all the v12's out there. Not every single one is broken at the moment.

True indeed... and we've got very high expectations. Imagine the outcry if 1 in a 100 iPhones or Samsungs were defective. Or 1 in a thousand. And a phone that fails is quite a bit less likely to land you in the hospital.

47 minutes ago, joeepark said:

taking the necessary steps to stop more defected wheels from entering the market

Seems someone is still expecting to receive a wheel from EUCO and I'd bet a dollar Ali is still shipping... The steps I've seen in this forum are: keep the speed below 20 kph and gear up.

 

47 minutes ago, joeepark said:

Instead they are recalling the wheels

I saw reference to a 'soft recall' but not from InMotion—what is a 'soft recall' anyway? Is it like Gotway saying you have to replace the batteries every year at your expense, and by they way, don't charge or store the wheel in your house?

47 minutes ago, joeepark said:

What would you do if you were in their current situation?

Immediately halt all shipments to end customers. Contact customers who have received their wheels and warn them that there may be an issue. Send IM Engineering reps to the major distributors to inspect wheels that have failed and those in stock to try to expedite discovering root cause. Send a rep to personally visit @Gixxer to pick up his wheel and offer a replacement wheel or a full refund—his choice, no BS. Assign a tiger team to contact and hand hold everyone who has reported a dead wheel—anyone who has a wheel that just died or cutout should have a special direct line of communication. Develop a plan to rework all the wheels in the supply chain, but first and foremost make certain you get parts and instructions to those that are trying to remain below 20 kph. Remain transparent on this forum, AND on the company Instagram and Facebook accounts... updates on a published schedule. When root cause is found, make a full and complete disclosure of the investigation—pretend the NTSB or the CPSC is involved and treat this like IM might be facing an import ban. Fix the process that allowed the root cause to make it into the consumer's hands.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Tawpie

[onizukagto]

Nice to see inmotion respond to this. But I doubt there will be any "recall".

Gotway explode into fire? No recall. 

Kingsong cutouts? No recall. 

We talking cowboy territory here, you are less likely to get any compensation then an 1800's Chinese railroad worker. 

[Timwheel]

Judging by the videos I'm seeing, I'd wager that a quick fix is software based.

We are all thinking about overvoltage on the Mosfets, and if it is the case, letting the wheel charge at 90% max is already a (probably) sufficient step. But to me, it might be overcurrent problems. I have no problems going around 6kw on the app, and I'm not heavy nor tall (83kgs, 1m78). It seems a bit high to me...

Plus, the failure to pass minor bumps or low sidewalks indicates to me that the PID is too "trigger happy" and might overreact to certain terrain. To me, making sure peak current is not allowed above a certain value under a certain speed is paramount. It's all about linear time invariant system controls. Make the time where the burst of current occurs longer, but with less of a peak. The limit being of course the time needed to make sure the wheel doesn't fall faceplant or doesn't soften its pedals too much... It is less of a problem at higher speed, where the wheel has sufficient kinetic energy to smooth the torque demand, and thus the current demand. It makes sense to me, as an engineer. It might at least counteract the problem enough where it becomes a "soft pedal on some bumps" rather than "catastrophic cut out".

Tim

Edited January 4, 2022 by Timwheel

[yoos]

I am afraid that "early batches=beta testers" has become the universal rule. Manufacturers cannot afford lengthy testing (have some 20-50 test vehicles ride 1000 mile each under different use cases) - I suspect they even have a hard time finding someone over 100kg willing to testride at all. The tech is still advancing quickly each year yet the market is still small enough -- manufacturers are tempted (and give in) to rush wheels out rather sooner than later to get market share.

As usual there is some cultural difference: the west expects warranty and liability while in the east it's "use our products at your own peril". I can only hope that as the market grows testing will become more extensive, and safety margins will be increased if only to prevent reputation damage.

@Timwheel I fully agree, they should soften up the algorithm. This begs the question whether riding EUCs in soft mode is generally safer and better for internals (this also hints at a direct connection between the super-hard begode mode and their battery failures). Of course eventually inmotion should replace mosfets with considerably higher rated ones, but a max current limit might make the V12 reasonably safe and still usable in the meantime.

[supercurio]

5 hours ago, Tawpie said:

True indeed... and we've got very high expectations. Imagine the outcry if 1 in a 100 iPhones or Samsungs were defective. Or 1 in a thousand. And a phone that fails is quite a bit less likely to land you in the hospital.

Very eloquently put @Tawpie (the whole message)

 

4 hours ago, Timwheel said:

Judging by the videos I'm seeing, I'd wager that a quick fix is software based.

We are all thinking about overvoltage on the Mosfets, and if it is the case, letting the wheel charge at 90% max is already a (probably) sufficient step.

This is really bad advice: we already know that cutouts don't occur > 90 % SOC, this would prevent battery balancing, and give a false sense of security to whomever would believe that.

Quote

But to me, it might be overcurrent problems. I have no problems going around 6kw on the app, and I'm not heavy nor tall (83kgs, 1m78). It seems a bit high to me...

Plus, the failure to pass minor bumps or low sidewalks indicates to me that the PID is too "trigger happy" and might overreact to certain terrain. To me, making sure peak current is not allowed above a certain value under a certain speed is paramount. It's all about linear time invariant system controls. Make the time where the burst of current occurs longer, but with less of a peak. The limit being of course the time needed to make sure the wheel doesn't fall faceplant or doesn't soften its pedals too much... It is less of a problem at higher speed, where the wheel has sufficient kinetic energy to smooth the torque demand, and thus the current demand. It makes sense to me, as an engineer. It might at least counteract the problem enough where it becomes a "soft pedal on some bumps" rather than "catastrophic cut out".

Tim

I'm thinking along the same lines as well, but the fact that after at least one cutout, the wheel kept spinning like the algorithm didn't identify the >45° side angle condition would indicate there is likely multiple failures at play, or that there are multiple issues ongoing each with their own root cause(s)

Edited January 4, 2022 by supercurio

[Timwheel]

2 hours ago, yoos said:

I am afraid that "early batches=beta testers" has become the universal rule. Manufacturers cannot afford lengthy testing (have some 20-50 test vehicles ride 1000 mile each under different use cases) - I suspect they even have a hard time finding someone over 100kg willing to testride at all. The tech is still advancing quickly each year yet the market is still small enough -- manufacturers are tempted (and give in) to rush wheels out rather sooner than later to get market share.

As usual there is some cultural difference: the west expects warranty and liability while in the east it's "use our products at your own peril". I can only hope that as the market grows testing will become more extensive, and safety margins will be increased if only to prevent reputation damage.

@Timwheel I fully agree, they should soften up the algorithm. This begs the question whether riding EUCs in soft mode is generally safer and better for internals (this also hints at a direct connection between the super-hard begode mode and their battery failures). Of course eventually inmotion should replace mosfets with considerably higher rated ones, but a max current limit might make the V12 reasonably safe and still usable in the meantime.

I'm not sure that soft mode would be safer per se. You could imagine a soft mode (i.e a "give" in the pedals) with extremely high current at the end of the dip to stop it from dipping further.

To me, if pedal dipping exists and if counteracting it means going above the components' specs, I'd say ring an alarm when the dip is too pronounced (pretty easy to do on an angular measurement I'd say) and the driver will stop leaning as much.

The V12 has high pedal clearance on its top notch. Letting the pedals dip a little bit on sidewalks or small bumps wouldn't be the end of the world, as clipping risks would be minimal, especially if it means no cut outs... Notice how none of those cut outs appear to be because of extreme riding, I leaned the V12 full tilt or with Powerpads, so much do that I know for a fact my MSX 84V would have given up, and never experienced any kind of failure.

To me, it could very well be software based with not enough headroom on the hardware side to forgive optimistic driving characteristics. At least that's my take on it, I could very well be wrong.

@supercurioThis was not an advice really... Only if it overvoltage is the cause does it make sense, and temporarly. When it comes to SOC, I might have a bad memory, but most of the failure I've seen occured above 90% precisely. At least that is what I thought I read on the spreadsheet, I might have to double check that.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Timwheel

[yoos]

4 minutes ago, Timwheel said:

To me, if pedal dipping exists and if counteracting it means going above the components' specs, I'd say ring an alarm when the dip is too pronounced (pretty easy to do on an angular measurement I'd say) and the driver will stop leaning as much.

I'd say modern algorithms are sophisticated enough to distinguish an overlean from a bump. The bump is always an abrupt quick tilt caused by the momentum imparted by the curb or other colliding obstacle. Anyway, a most simple fix would be to simply globally limit the max current. This would lead to pedal dipping in certain scenarios, but the EUC would not die and you could recover balance. I guess most experienced riders do recognize a pedal dip caused by overpowering and can recover from it via body balancing [if it's not too severe]. At least I do such recovering from time to time since my 16S 420wh is underpowered. This is a better scenario than pumping a higher current and hoping the mosfets won't pop.

A current alarm would also be a good addition of course.

[The Brahan Seer]

From reading this thread it sounds like people are wanting EUC manufacturers with Quality Assurance Standards eg ISO9001. The advantage of this is obvious but the downside is cost. If IM are to send out reps, do recalls etc etc to remedy the issues then that's great as long as we are prepared to pay for it. Ultimately we know we are taking a risk with this product especially first batches. If the alternative is businesses shut down and go bust how would you feel?

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, yoos said:

A current alarm would also be a good addition of course.

The V11 warns if pushed too hard, I have no reason to believe that the V12 would be any different.

[Timwheel]

2 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

From reading this thread it sounds like people are wanting EUC manufacturers with Quality Assurance Standards eg ISO9001. The advantage of this is obvious but the downside is cost. If IM are to send out reps, do recalls etc etc to remedy the issues then that's great as long as we are prepared to pay for it. Ultimately we know we are taking a risk with this product especially first batches. If the alternative is businesses shut down and go bust how would you feel?

We don't, at least I don't, expect that. I just expect not to die when I ride my wheel. There are just things you shouldn't cheap out on. Control board + motor should be be nearly bulletproof. If lights don't work, LED strips not great, shell a bit cracked then that's poor QC. If the wheel cuts out during normal operation, that's a different story. IPS did create a redundant wheel from what I recall, the S5 ? Not sure if this was all marketing BS though.

 

Anyway, a cut out under normal driving circumstances is not acceptable, from wherever you look at it. Other models don't do it, this one shouldn't, that is all. If a brand knows that power above a certain threshold is not possible to maintain safely, they just shouldn't even propose it. At least that is how I see it.