INMOTION V12

[Paul g]

21 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

What I am saying is there is a way to mitigate the risk of faulty components and wheels and that is by using a company that is accredited with ISO9001. What this means is that all the components have to be tested, the procedures, the installation etc etc with Quality Assurance. The drawback to this is to buy products with ISO9001 accreditation costs more. 

Example Fluke Multimeters cost a lot more than other brands. But they have ISO9001 accreditation. Which should mean they have very robust systems in place to ensure their products are good. 

I would happily pay the money for the better product. I buy Fluke as well and it worth every penny. My ass deserves even more for me, just as others here also agreed. I buy a wheel to have fun, nut to end up in hospital with my health ruined. This is my choice. I can’t speak for others, but why would you choose different? Isn’t your health important for you? Isn’t important for your family that you remain healthy?
Let’s check the costs of a cutoff  @Gixxer had to pay. Wouldn’t you pay those money rather for a better wheel than to end up in hospital? Yo, InMotion, make the V12 10%, 15% or 20% more expensive, or whatever it costs to put the proper components in your electronics so it is a tank that never lets me down, I one would pay for it.

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Yup, and the community rang the alarm bell 6 months ago...

 

Yes. "Damage" is the reason engineers refer to rated maximum specifications. Exceed the ratings, damage likely.

Bear in mind, there is always component variation...
Semiconductors are made by dissolving chemicals in other chemicals, to create conductive pathways. This chemical process cannot be perfectly repeatable, and so part-to-part variation of some amount is expected. The 'average' part likely exceeds the rated limits by a notable amount; but a few parts may end up right at these limits. Which would help explain a 10% failure rate for controllers of identical construction.

For the cutout issue: we should be honest about we know and don't know. The failures are at a low (but significant) occurrence rate; and there has not been a measurable cause of failure identified yet. The cause could be some additional thing, unrelated to the FET spec. But this out-of-spec part is concerning, in any case.

Thanks for your quick reply.

It sounds like unless you're lucky, the 10% failure rate today will rise to... most of them eventually if ridden more, with degradation accumulating? As we've seen it's not even a matter of being ridden hard.

If 10% is confirmed, I wouldn't call it a low occurence rate however, more like extremely high given what happens when it does.

Granted, odds are still better than Russian roulette, but not by much.

Quote

And now Inmo seems to intend to find and reject any low-end FETs after EUC assembly. I don't like that answer, because the worst-case riding condition is not well understood and likely difficult to recreate in a factory setting. Is a revised board so much to ask for??

The revised board is a new model, the V12 HT, apparently.

Quote

 That's good too. But choosing an IC and then not respecting its ratings is a design issue, not a process quality issue...

Defective by design 🙁

 

For my preorder, V12 currently on the boat, I start to lean towards cancellation, unless it is reworked with a new board revision using the right components and stress tested.

There's absolutely no excuse whatsoever for not running the stress test in factory, where the controller spins the motor back and forth agressively at various speeds & torque following an established program.

Asking distributors or worse, customers to execute a bad version of this stress test is amateurish and embarrassing.

The wheels must be waiting after being assembled. They could run this stress test for X hours then pack them.

And then as you said, even if it passes now the wheel is still relying out of spec components to drive the motor, aka everything.

Disappointed.

Edited January 4, 2022 by supercurio

[The Brahan Seer]

7 minutes ago, Paul g said:

but why would you choose different? Isn’t your health important for you? Isn’t important for your family that you remain healthy?

I agree with you totally. But looking at previous threads on here like 'why are EUC's so expensive?' etc and the current price of EUC's show how much people are willing to spend.  I don't mind paying £2k for a wheel that has a risk factor. I mitigate it by how I ride and all the gear I wear. How willing would everyone be to pay say £5k for the same wheel that is safer? I don't know. I also wonder if the companies that currently make and sell EUC's would sell enough to stay in business with the higher costs. 

[Waulnut]

 

1 minute ago, The Brahan Seer said:

How willing would everyone be to pay say £5k for the same wheel that is safer?

Price would be more justified in comparison to the Onewheel for specs at least.

If they can ever design a wheel with all the safety measures and redundancy, I'd buy it due to the portable form factor of an EUC compared to every other vehicle out there. 

[supercurio]

@The Brahan Seer the disillusionment and despair today also comes from the fact that Inmotion products, especially the V12 were supposed to be the better and safer version of the fast, sketchy but cheaper Gotway.

But what we get instead today is that the risk with Gotways was escalated to house fire, and Inmotions are not safer or more reliable than Gotways from the past.

Not what we were hoping for.

Edited January 4, 2022 by supercurio

[Tawpie]

4 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

How willing would everyone be to pay say £5k for the same wheel that is safer?

It would seem Begode is exploring this path... a theoretically safer product that gives up range and costs a fair bit more.

The aspect of design engineering that I found to be compelling was that it was an exercise in finding a workable compromise. The ability to have a product people would purchase was a factor. Maintaining sufficient design margin so the product didn't fail in the field was a hair pulling exercise. Being able to manufacture in quantity was a factor. And it always revolved around cost. "What the market will bear" is something of a discovery process.

[Paul g]

1 minute ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I agree with you totally. But looking at previous threads on here like 'why are EUC's so expensive?' etc and the current price of EUC's show how much people are willing to spend.  I don't mind paying £2k for a wheel that has a risk factor. I mitigate it by how I ride and all the gear I wear. How willing would everyone be to pay say £5k for the same wheel that is safer? I don't know. I also wonder if the companies that currently make and sell EUC's would sell enough to stay in business with the higher costs. 

12x125V mosfets cost - 12 x100V mosfets cost won’t mount to 150% increase in price for the entire wheel. For that money  it would be the Ferrari of EUCs and made of carbon fibre.  Would need more than just better mosfets to motivate the price. 

[The Brahan Seer]

@supercurio It is a very sad day at the moment and disappointing. All we all want is well built, safe wheels that don't cost the earth or lives. It appears to be very hard. There was a glimmer of hope that wheels where starting to be more reliable and as you say this has been eroded. The latest news of the poor Hero design choices, the V12. There doesn't seem to be a new wheel that just works yet. As @Paul g has stated; in ourselves we value our lives but not all countries feel this way. 

[The Brahan Seer]

2 minutes ago, Paul g said:

12x125V mosfets cost - 12 x100V mosfets cost won’t mount to 150% increase in price for the entire wheel. For that money  it would be the Ferrari of EUCs and made of carbon fibre.  Would need more than just better mosfets to motivate the price. 

Of course. The price increase would be across the board for all  components, plus the additional time to install, the extra manpower needed to be hired to ensure adhering to QA standards etc.Training of staff etc. Person to oversee and write training, standard operating procedures. The purchasing officer would have to source all parts from QA approved suppliers etc. Quality of parts etc. I was using £5k as a theoretical example. Say fluke multimeter is usually £300, but get something that does the same kind of thing for £120. 2.5x less. That is all. Hopefully they could produce a decent wheel that meet the safety requirements we want for less. But I don't know. 

[Unventor]

I fully agree with your post above @RagingGrandpa.

I think Inmotion got cough by surprise and got a short straw. 

I agree also that steps needs to be taken to avoid situations like these as much as possible. 

From what I know of pcb testing these are often "stress tested" with test chambers to ensure environment functions. (from when I were interviewed for a job many years ago, how Inmotion do I have no idea).

But in fully assembly in a full wheel, once wheel model has passed into production I guess most would assume it is safe. Streamlining production or shifting component supplier can bring on surprises you didn't anticipate. 

We see this happening in almost any electronic use in many businesses, so not just an EUC problem. It is also why we see massive car recalls from all brands from time to time (electronic or mechanical). 

The last 3 models Inmotion released had initial problems. But has been resolved with the V10 series (was a fast detected and resolved) and V11 (complex bearing problem that needed long term testing before it was resolved).

Soon I suspect a fix for V12 too from the statements from Inmotion staff made public here and other social media places. 

From what I have seem in the time from riding my first EUC, a V8, Inmotion has been committed to have problem free products.. Overall they had good quality results from early models and V8 and V10 from what yearly reports made public by EcoDrift. 

I have not seen numbers of last year and for V11. 

It is so easy to think switching brand will make things better. But overall in my opinion there isn't a huge difference. But I do appreciate to have info coming to public direct from the brand I invent in. KS had this before, and said they will get a replacement from Jack. But so far it has been quiet as far as I know. 

I never seen anything from GW/sister-brands. Only stuff from you tubers and Influencers. 

To me this look like Inmotion do try harder. It is not the same as 100% success all the time, but I view them as very committed. 

One of the old brands like Ninebot didn't care from their resellers and customers from owners I heard about here. That brand is not active anymore. So I view it as critical for a brand to listen and engaging with their customers/end-users. 

Some call me a fanboy. I view it more like supporting a brand with a design philosophy and commitment. As a community we can choose if working together to get relevant and safer products by helping out the manufacturer or one can sit and point a blame finger. I don't believe on the last option. But maybe that is just me. 

[Paul g]

1 minute ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Of course. The price increase would be across the board for all  components, plus the additional time to install, the extra manpower needed to be hired to ensure adhering to QA standards etc.Training of staff etc. Person to oversee and write training, standard operating procedures. The purchasing officer would have to source all parts from QA approved suppliers etc. Quality of parts etc. I was using £5k as a theoretical example. Say fluke multimeter is usually £300, but get something that does the same kind of thing for £120. 2.5x less. That is all. Hopefully they could produce a decent wheel that meet the safety requirements we want for less. But I don't know. 

I’m sure they can give it decent safety without that increase in price. The price of 120Vx120A mosfets from the same producer with similar reaction time and similar dissipated power are very close. The price difference is under 5%. Everybody would afford to pay that.

[Waulnut]

I hope Inmotion will be able to provide control board replacements to distributors.

Is it hard to replace the 100V rated mosfets with better ones?

[nosamplesplease]

20 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I fully agree with your post above @RagingGrandpa.

I think Inmotion got cough by surprise and got a short straw. 

I agree also that steps needs to be taken to avoid situations like these as much as possible. 

From what I know of pcb testing these are often "stress tested" with test chambers to ensure environment functions. (from when I were interviewed for a job many years ago, how Inmotion do I have no idea).

But in fully assembly in a full wheel, once wheel model has passed into production I guess most would assume it is safe. Streamlining production or shifting component supplier can bring on surprises you didn't anticipate. 

We see this happening in almost any electronic use in many businesses, so not just an EUC problem. It is also why we see massive car recalls from all brands from time to time (electronic or mechanical). 

The last 3 models Inmotion released had initial problems. But has been resolved with the V10 series (was a fast detected and resolved) and V11 (complex bearing problem that needed long term testing before it was resolved).

Soon I suspect a fix for V12 too from the statements from Inmotion staff made public here and other social media places. 

From what I have seem in the time from riding my first EUC, a V8, Inmotion has been committed to have problem free products.. Overall they had good quality results from early models and V8 and V10 from what yearly reports made public by EcoDrift. 

I have not seen numbers of last year and for V11. 

It is so easy to think switching brand will make things better. But overall in my opinion there isn't a huge difference. But I do appreciate to have info coming to public direct from the brand I invent in. KS had this before, and said they will get a replacement from Jack. But so far it has been quiet as far as I know. 

I never seen anything from GW/sister-brands. Only stuff from you tubers and Influencers. 

To me this look like Inmotion do try harder. It is not the same as 100% success all the time, but I view them as very committed. 

One of the old brands like Ninebot didn't care from their resellers and customers from owners I heard about here. That brand is not active anymore. So I view it as critical for a brand to listen and engaging with their customers/end-users. 

Some call me a fanboy. I view it more like supporting a brand with a design philosophy and commitment. As a community we can choose if working together to get relevant and safer products by helping out the manufacturer or one can sit and point a blame finger. I don't believe on the last option. But maybe that is just me. 

Ninebot is currently VERY active just not with EUCs. 

Nearly everything else they make is now available at a huge US retail chain, Best Buy. EUCs were too low volume sell through.

[Unventor]

1 minute ago, nosamplesplease said:

Ninebot is currently VERY active just not with EUCs. 

Nearly everything else they make is now available at a huge US retail chain, Best Buy. EUCs were too low volume sell through.

I know they moved on to do other things or focus on other stuff. But their handling of EUC related stuff towards customers did leave some stranded.

I have not that same indication from Inmotion. To me it looks like they are stepping up. 

[conecones]

So based on Inmotion's responses thus far, the assumed solution will be tighter QC on the same MOSFETS using a new testing method (yet to be proven effective)? This doesn't seem to leave much overhead for performance degradation from component age/usage. I was hoping the issue was an obvious QC defect or firmware related. Since all the cutout incidents happened to wheels that were working fine out of the box, even if the unit passes this testing method, how do we know how close it came to its limits(which would cause cutout)?

If the above is accurate, IMO riding this wheel hard will still be risky and I am not happy about that. I paid for 65km/h+ performance as advertised and paid the Inmotion "tax" for their safety record and quality. If I have to ride at 50km/h out of fear of not overstressing the components which are designed too close to their limits, then I could have just gotten a KS18XL or 16X, or take my fire risk chances with an RS HS.

[Tawpie]

24 minutes ago, Waulnut said:

Is it hard to replace the 100V rated mosfets with better ones?

I would think that this is tricky and best handled at depot repair. Not something I'd ask distributors to do.

[Unventor]

1 minute ago, conecones said:

So based on Inmotion's responses thus far, the assumed solution will be tighter QC on the same MOSFETS using a new testing method (yet to be proven effective)? This doesn't seem to leave much overhead for performance degradation from component age/usage. I was hoping the issue was an obvious QC defect or firmware related. Since all the cutout incidents happened to wheels that were working fine out of the box, even if the unit passes this testing method, how do we know how close it came to its limits(which would cause cutout)?

If the above is accurate, IMO riding this wheel hard will still be risky and I am not happy about that. I paid for 65km/h+ performance as advertised and paid the Inmotion "tax" for their safety record and quality. If I have to ride at 50km/h out of fear of not overstressing the components which are designed too close to their limits, then I could have just gotten a KS18XL or 16X, or take my fire risk chances with an RS HS.

I seen a statement from Inmotion that are they are investing and will be back with a solution. I have not yet seen a solution but maybe I missed something? 

Until we see their solution I don't think it more than speculation. 

Again expireance from my work, it takes some time to get everything sorted out and ready until you can make a final solution statement. 

As far as I know this is what we all are waiting for atm. Now I don't have a V12 so I didn't follow it closely as I have been busy with other irl stuff. But I do think it holds some interest what the solution will be from Inmotion. It is part of riders to fully trust their wheel. And bigger overall problems seems to be a focal point for discussion of all brands. So hopefully we don't see more of similar problems in future models when they are launched. 

[conecones]

5 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I seen a statement from Inmotion that are they are investing and will be back with a solution. I have not yet seen a solution but maybe I missed something? 

Until we see their solution I don't think it more than speculation. 

Again expireance from my work, it takes some time to get everything sorted out and ready until you can make a final solution statement. 

As far as I know this is what we all are waiting for atm. Now I don't have a V12 so I didn't follow it closely as I have been busy with other irl stuff. But I do think it holds some interest what the solution will be from Inmotion. It is part of riders to fully trust their wheel. And bigger overall problems seems to be a focal point for discussion of all brands. So hopefully we don't see more of similar problems in future models when they are launched. 

You're right. We are still awaiting a formal response from Inmotion on the cause. I was referencing a previous post claimed to be from eWheels (also posted on the V12 Facebook group), but since this is posted from an unverified source, I should not assume it is 100% accurate.

Will keep my hopes up that Inmotion releases a response that will inspire confidence.

[nosamplesplease]

39 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I would think that this is tricky and best handled at depot repair. Not something I'd ask distributors to do.

Most electronic technicians who can handle SMT board level repair, would have basically ZERO problem replacing something as large as these MOSFETS. However most of them won't be familiar with VFD or PWM motor controllers as likely their experience is more mainstream consumer electronics. They might not have the experience required for ideal component selection, much less be able to verify tolerances or how will said components match each other. 

I honestly couldn't tell you much more specifics my engineering classes were more oriented towards PLCs and other industrial equipment.

Edited January 5, 2022 by nosamplesplease
Damn autocorrect. Sigh....

[Steve Evans]

well... i tried the test with lifting my wheel and rocking it forwards & backwards. it seemed to pass that test ok.

i have about 500 miles on my wheel and have not experience any issues thus far.

still, i dont feel i can trust it. are there any other tests we can come up with that might trigger mosfet burnout?

thanks,

steve

 

[.....]

Great, so one possible 'solution' is to test the already near MAX capacity FETS. Well, thats definitely cheaper than sourcing more parts and implementing an actual change. I'm fully capable of a lot of repairs. Its not a matter of capable, its a matter of buying a finished product. This all saddens me, as its NOT just inmo, most wheel makers seem to be boarding the same train. I do have a rock solid 18XL(ive had 3/18L's worry free too), so you can still catch me grinnning from ear to ear. My Sherm hasnt failed me, but its odd noises and numerous vibrations will likely leave me to NEVER fully trust it. Being betrayed by KS with the s18, has me bitter as he*l and it probably still shows. TBF, a reliable EUC is more a concern for me, than the reliability of my single paramotor engine while flying over mountains. If one motor dies, I simply glide down and hang from the trees. If the other dies, I simply skid down asphalt on my face and get run over by cars. 180mph on a motorcycle and i lose a chain or engine quit, not that big a deal. 45mph on an euc and a momentary loss of power.... BIG DEAL!

@evans036 Honestly bro, all you can do to gain faith in the wheel, is to suck it up and ignore that nagging feeling. If its fine, youll forget about it in a few hundred miles. If its wrong, you wont forget about it, even after you are healed. Don't let this all get you too worried. Its a dice roll with ALL wheels and at one point you gotta play or leave the table. Until it proves otherwise for YOUR wheel, its almost imperative that you have blind faith. If you dont have blind faith, you will never fully enjoy the ride. Failure rates are still low. I just worry as a failure on an euc is almost always catastrophic and has dire consequences with no financial recourse.

Edited January 5, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[supercurio]

20 minutes ago, evans036 said:

well... i tried the test with lifting my wheel and rocking it forwards & backwards. it seemed to pass that test ok.

i have about 500 miles on my wheel and have not experience any issues thus far.

still, i dont feel i can trust it. are there any other tests we can come up with that might trigger mosfet burnout?

Thanks for giving this test a shot, I have a few questions regarding how it went:

• Where and how did you grab the wheel to get enough leverage and stability: extremities of the handle or front and rear bumpers?
• Did you feel like the wheel could keep up, resisting mostly leveled with your yanking then "slipping", when accelerating or changing direction? (In the air)
• What kind of noise did the motor make when changing direction abruptly? On the Sherman for instance, it's not a very nice sound and you can tell the whole thing is under stress.
• did you swap direction from max rotation speed, lower speed or any kind of speeds multiple times?

Edited January 5, 2022 by supercurio

[Steve Evans]

1 minute ago, supercurio said:

Thanks for giving this test a shot, I have a few questions regarding how it went:

• Where and how did you grab the wheel to get enough leverage and stability: extremities of the handle or front and rear bumpers?
• Did you feel like the wheel could keep up, resisting mostly leveled with your yanking then "slipping", when accelerating or changing direction? (In the air)
• What kind of noise did the motor make when changing direction abruptly? On the Sherman for instance, it's not so a very nice sound and you can tell the whole thing is under stress.
• did you swap direction from max rotation speed, lower speed or any kind of speeds multiple times

• Where and how did you grab the wheel to get enough leverage and stability: extremities of the handle or front and rear bumpers?
  • i grabbed the handle with two hands, each placed either side of the kill switch. it was tight but doable.
• Did you feel like the wheel could keep up, resisting mostly leveled with your yanking then "slipping", when accelerating or changing direction? (In the air)
  • yes the wheel tried to keep up, trying to change direction each time i altered the swing. the wheel would eventually give up i think when it spun up to max speed. with each test i managed about 5 or 6 wheel direction reverses. 
• What kind of noise did the motor make when changing direction abruptly? On the Sherman for instance, it's not so a very nice sound and you can tell the whole thing is under stress.
  • no unusual sounds. i could hear the motor working, but it sounded normal
• did you swap direction from max rotation speed, lower speed or any kind of speeds multiple times
  • as soon as the wheel hit the max speed it would shut down, so it was difficult timing it all just right. so i think the majority of speed reversals where not near top speed. i performed the test about 10 times.

 

it was a relatively difficult test to perform. perhaps it would be easier with the spin kill switch disabled so i could get a better grip on the handle. that wheel is freakin heavy too. i will try the test again.

steve

 

 

[Steve Evans]

3 minutes ago, evans036 said:

• Where and how did you grab the wheel to get enough leverage and stability: extremities of the handle or front and rear bumpers?
  • i grabbed the handle with two hands, each placed either side of the kill switch. it was tight but doable.
• Did you feel like the wheel could keep up, resisting mostly leveled with your yanking then "slipping", when accelerating or changing direction? (In the air)
  • yes the wheel tried to keep up, trying to change direction each time i altered the swing. the wheel would eventually give up i think when it spun up to max speed. with each test i managed about 5 or 6 wheel direction reverses. 
• What kind of noise did the motor make when changing direction abruptly? On the Sherman for instance, it's not so a very nice sound and you can tell the whole thing is under stress.
  • no unusual sounds. i could hear the motor working, but it sounded normal
• did you swap direction from max rotation speed, lower speed or any kind of speeds multiple times
  • as soon as the wheel hit the max speed it would shut down, so it was difficult timing it all just right. so i think the majority of speed reversals where not near top speed. i performed the test about 10 times.

 

it was a relatively difficult test to perform. perhaps it would be easier with the spin kill switch disabled so i could get a better grip on the handle. that wheel is freakin heavy too. i will try the test again.

steve

 

 

i just performed another test with spin kill button disabled. this time watching the wheel speed and reversing it once it got to 40/50 mph.

hard to do becuase it all happens so quickly.

but again, the wheel seemed to perform the test well.

hope this helps,

steve

[supercurio]

It reads like you executed the test in good form @evans036!

The key part is indeed when getting  the "slip" sensation which indicates either that the wheel ran out of speed (not what we want) or torque (the stress test intended).

And right before or while running out of torque, the controller will try to drive the motor as hard as it can to prevent losing level or regain it, possibly frying the MOSFETs in the process.

Now I would (sadly) like to see a wheel failing this test to confirm its validity.

At 10% failure rate, that should happen for some.

Edited January 5, 2022 by supercurio