INMOTION V12

[Bikemike2777]

8 minutes ago, Patrick Robert said:

The Nikola+ has been equipped with 125V mosfets for a while now :

• Are these Wheels fitted with the newer/upgraded controller?
  Yes, the Nikola+ is equipped with the high-powered HY5012W MOSFETs, rated for up to 300A sustained & 1000A peak output. These offer a substantial boost over the first generation Nikola from 2019.

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-nikola-1800wh-battery-2000w-motor-3-wide-tire/

 

The HY5012W is rated for 125V:

https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf/1269423/HOOYI/HY5012W/1

That is a 6 fet system? Vs the 12 fet 

Makes sense why they set 2 120amp fets together to try to achieve what 1 fet can do

[GothamMike]

Are manufacturers gonna have to include their MOSFET capacity as part of their specs?

[Bikemike2777]

25 minutes ago, GothamMike said:

Are manufacturers gonna have to include their MOSFET capacity as part of their specs?

Probably not.  Really wish they got this wheel done right the 1st and 2nd time.  I really had my hopes up to own one. 

[Patrick Robert]

7 minutes ago, Bikemike2777 said:

Are manufacturers gonna have to include their MOSFET capacity as part of their specs?

Would be nice, along with the battery types, etc. Would help informed customers make better purchasing decisions. How many would have said that the V12 is a more powerful wheel if they knew it had worse mosfets than its main competitor (the Nik+)?

But my point was that it took a while for Gotway to respond with a more powerful controller + mosfets for the Nik+, and it seems like Inmotion has done the same mistake with their *first* 100V wheel.

Did Inmotion not know about this when they designed the V12? Especially since they never had gone 100V before? 

At least KS is taking its time testing and perfecting its first 126V offering to make sure they didn't forget anything so obvious. 

[RagingGrandpa]

20 hours ago, Bikemike2777 said:

That is a 6 fet system? Vs the 12 fet 

No...

Gotway/Begode with the TO247-size FETs all use 12 pieces (or 18, in the MonPro!). So we're comparing 12 large TO247 Gotway FETs to 12 small TO220 Inmo FETs.

Kingsong has been on the TO220 size for all of their modern EUC's. Sorry I'm not aware of which model chip it is though.
[edit: my mistake. Kingsong is TO247 for S18 and 16X, and upcoming S20.]

More detailed discussion in the "MOS" thread below, replies go there please.
https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/26282-inmotion-v12-ht-board-more-durable-mos/?do=findComment&comment=400138

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by RagingGrandpa
KS correction

[Cecily Inmotion]

19 hours ago, supercurio said:

While talking with the distributor I have my V12 order with, he confirms that Inmotion has not replied to him once after his report of 30% defect rate on summer V10F batch.
Inmotion has not sent him any notice, warning, instructions regarding anything V12 either.

In their official communication, Inmotion said they would alert people concerned, but they didn't even bother alerting (at least some) dealers they had to run stress test before sending wheels to customers.

I am extremely disappointed Inmotion is not honoring their public commitments.

 

"has worked with the retailers globally"

 

So may I know which distributor did you buy your V12 from?

I will let our sales to contact with them immediately.

Thanks so much for your feedback.

[Cecily Inmotion]

2 hours ago, Cecily Inmotion said:

So may I know which distributor did you buy your V12 from?

I will let our sales to contact with them immediately.

Thanks so much for your feedback.

Our sales will contact with EUCshop.lt within today.  

[Shane Dougherty]

Cecily;  Is Chicway aware that new boards should go out to affected customers. I'm not feeling like they're in the loop?

 

[jimjam.nyc]

 

5 hours ago, Planemo said:

On the flip side, I'm still amazed that Inmotion, with their undoubtably huge knowledge, would make such a big error on component selection. They must have known that the fets were rated for 100v and they were building a 100v wheel. So I'm still not ruling out the possibility of them having had a shady batch of fets. Either that or their EE team needs a serious reshuffle.

I know the FETS chosen were a concern.. but the truth is @evX_Mick and other people have been putting their pre-production and production wheels through their paces for quite some time with no issues (at least without cutouts). The v12 has been handling the pothole ridden streets of NYC for the most part with no issues. I also have had my 1st batch for a while with no issues. I am not an aggressive rider over here, but there are no avoiding the potholes and curbs in NY.. So far it has not been a problem for the wheel. So part of me either thinks this is indeed a faulty batch of components... or maybe even a software fo-par in a recent firmware update. I wonder if there are a specific set of settings that are causing it. There is huge amount of custom ride feel settings in the firmware, i wouldnt be surprised if at a certain threshold things get sketchy. 

With that said, its not a good thing.. the wheel should be able to be setup as needed without cutouts, and one can argue stronger components are the fix for even that. 

I really think this spin test is not the best idea.. Some people may be able to break the wheel a decent percentage of the time depending on their ability to hulk the wheel. So i am not surprised if one vendor doing these tests is getting a high failure rate.. At the same time, some of us weaker folk may not be able to apply the power needed to test it properly.. Or just straight up may be doing it wrong.. 

Just my 2 cents.. If you are uncomfortable contact your vendor and see what options they have.. Considering supply chain, i would think other than waiting for updated components there is not much anyone can do right now.. Hopefully they can come up with a way to test the v12 for the issue with a little more consistency at some point soon. 

 

 

 

 

[supercurio]

6 hours ago, Cecily Inmotion said:

Our sales will contact with EUCshop.lt within today.  

Thanks for making it happen, he was contacted with instructions - Good job!

[SanDiegoGuy]

I have a batch 2 V12 but I cannot do the spin test due to my bad shoulders and wrists. My back is not that great either so I do not want to risk injuring it.

So what would Inmotion do to help V12 riders that cannot do the spin test?

[Unventor]

4 hours ago, Shane Dougherty said:

Cecily;  Is Chicway aware that new boards should go out to affected customers. I'm not feeling like they're in the loop?

 

@Cecily Inmotion tagged you so you see the question.

To @Shane Dougherty to tag people so they get a notice, you start typing @ (leave the space out) write the name and suggestion list gets more direct as you type more of the name. 

[Paul g]

21 hours ago, Patrick Robert said:

Would be nice, along with the battery types, etc. Would help informed customers make better purchasing decisions. How many would have said that the V12 is a more powerful wheel if they knew it had worse mosfets than its main competitor (the Nik+)?

But my point was that it took a while for Gotway to respond with a more powerful controller + mosfets for the Nik+, and it seems like Inmotion has done the same mistake with their *first* 100V wheel.

Did Inmotion not know about this when they designed the V12? Especially since they never had gone 100V before? 

At least KS is taking its time testing and perfecting its first 126V offering to make sure they didn't forget anything so obvious. 

I don’t wanna jump to conclusions anymore after the V12 fiasco. I did the mistake once. We don’t know what kind of surprise KS is preparing for us, good or bad. If they use TO247 for a 126V wheel wouldn’t they make a similar mistake InMotion did with V12?

[Bikemike2777]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoGuy said:

I have a batch 2 V12 but I cannot do the spin test due to my bad shoulders and wrists. My back is not that great either so I do not want to risk injuring it.

So what would Inmotion do to help V12 riders that cannot do the spin test?

@SanDiegoGuy. You can ask the local groups near you to meat up and test it for you. If your from Cali like your name leads on to be the euc group is huge out there

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, SanDiegoGuy said:

I have a batch 2 V12 but I cannot do the spin test due to my bad shoulders and wrists. My back is not that great either so I do not want to risk injuring it.

So what would Inmotion do to help V12 riders that cannot do the spin test?

Hopefully a friend or neighbor can help you with the test?
However, in some cases (minority so far) the wheel still failed after a successful test.

If you'd like some test still now, you can give a try to the my proposed test #2: significantly easier to execute.
Be aware that it is both unofficial and unconfirmed at this point, so please take its result with a huge grain of salt.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by supercurio

[Nick McCutcheon]

5 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I know the FETS chosen were a concern.. but the truth is @evX_Mick and other people have been putting their pre-production and production wheels through their paces for quite some time with no issues (at least without cutouts). The v12 has been handling the pothole ridden streets of NYC for the most part with no issues. I also have had my 1st batch for a while with no issues. I am not an aggressive rider over here, but there are no avoiding the potholes and curbs in NY.. So far it has not been a problem for the wheel. So part of me either thinks this is indeed a faulty batch of components... or maybe even a software fo-par in a recent firmware update. I wonder if there are a specific set of settings that are causing it. There is huge amount of custom ride feel settings in the firmware, i wouldnt be surprised if at a certain threshold things get sketchy.

I'm not sure how much this contributes to the conversation, but one of EUCO's earliest demo V12s had a cutout during an otherwise normal ride while going ~15mph on flat ground, and it was mosfet-related as trying to turn the wheel back on afterwards just resulted in that horrible motor whining indicative of a shorted fet before the unit completely died for good. From the very beginning, I've been skeptical of IM's insistence on using these lower grade fets, and I am puzzled as to why they refused to catch up with the times of using TO-247 package fets in their wheels even as far back as on the V11.

I can't say I saw this whole situation coming, but I've seen signs that this could have been a potential problem for IM for a while now. The issue? It's very hard to give these companies feedback, as saving face/not admitting they've done anything wrong is one of the most important aspects of the society they're in unfortunately. If we were raised in a similar society we would think the same way, so I'm not at all trying to cast judgement on the individuals at IM. My point here is that problems identified by dealers are not taken as seriously as they should be, as early as they should be, across the board for all manufacturers. However in this particular case, it seems too late for IM to continue to push the issue aside. 

[supercurio]

26 minutes ago, Nick McCutcheon said:

I'm not sure how much this contributes to the conversation, but one of EUCO's earliest demo V12s had a cutout during an otherwise normal ride while going ~15mph on flat ground, and it was mosfet-related as trying to turn the wheel back on afterwards just resulted in that horrible motor whining indicative of a shorted fet before the unit completely died for good. From the very beginning, I've been skeptical of IM's insistence on using these lower grade fets, and I am puzzled as to why they refused to catch up with the times of using TO-247 package fets in their wheels even as far back as on the V11.

I can't say I saw this whole situation coming, but I've seen signs that this could have been a potential problem for IM for a while now. The issue? It's very hard to give these companies feedback, as saving face/not admitting they've done anything wrong is one of the most important aspects of the society they're in unfortunately. If we were raised in a similar society we would think the same way, so I'm not at all trying to cast judgement on the individuals at IM. My point here is that problems identified by dealers are not taken as seriously as they should be, as early as they should be, across the board for all manufacturers. However in this particular case, it seems too late for IM to continue to push the issue aside. 

Thanks for mentioning this early failure.
I feel like it's time for distributors and their techs to speak up, after giving Inmotion a fair amount of time to react and respond.

However, Inmotion puts every dealer in an impossible situation right now by

• Telling customers things like "Based on our extensive and rigorous test results, if the wheel pass the test, it's safe to ride" (direct quote)
• Offering future replacement boards only for failed ones
• Not acknowledging that a wheel can fail in real world use after passing the test

At the same time, a large portion of customers and dealers think that the issue concerns only Batch 2, despite the early occurrences as you describe and the fact 25% of the documented cutouts happened on on Batch 1 wheels.
This makes all the difference between "a few bad MOSFETs" and "a pattern establishing a defect by design"

So now, dealers don't know if they're giving safe products to the customers who trust them and the liability is shifted onto the dealers in case of any issue, since they're the ones who ran the stress test or might swap dead MOSFETs after a failed test.

Hopefully, more dealers will share their experience since the beginning, so we all get a better understanding, very appreciated @Nick McCutcheon

Edited January 13, 2022 by supercurio

[Planemo]

28 minutes ago, supercurio said:

 

• Telling customers things like "Based on our extensive and rigorous test results, if the wheel pass the test, it's safe to ride" (direct quote)

And this is where the shit will hit the fan in the western world. If a rider gets seriously hurt (or worse) as a result of a V12 failing due to this fault, even after a dealer has already done the 'stress test', the rider will have every right to go after the dealer for compensation. I know if I was a dealer, there is no way on earth I would be selling ANY V12's right now, even if they did pass the test. It just wouldn't be worth the aggro, or potential financial consequences.

[Unventor]

15 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Thanks for mentioning this early failure.
I feel like it's time for distributors and their techs to speak up, after giving Inmotion a fair amount of time to react and respond.

However, Inmotion puts every dealer in an impossible situation right now by

• Telling customers things like "Based on our extensive and rigorous test results, if the wheel pass the test, it's safe to ride" (direct quote)
• Offering future replacement boards only for failed ones
• Not acknowledging that a wheel can fail in real world use after passing the test

At the same time, a large portion of customers and dealers think that the issue concerns only Batch 2, despite the early occurrences as you describe and the fact 25% of the documented cutouts happened on on Batch 1 wheels.
This makes all the difference between "a few bad MOSFETs" and "a pattern establishing a defect by design"

So now, dealers don't know if they're giving safe products to the customers who trust them and the liability is shifted onto the dealers in case of any issue, since they're the ones who ran the stress test or might swap dead MOSFETs after a failed test.

Hopefully, more dealers will share their experience since the beginning, so we all get a better understanding, very appreciated @Nick McCutcheon

You will never get the full picture of this no mayer how much you try. 

To understand why you need to realise that only though people claiming warrenty though their reseller. The reseller report back to Inmotion. Only Inmotion know how many claims there is made. 

Sometime a manufactory can spot a pattern other times it takes much longer time. It depends what triggers the problem. 

It is also why recall of cars sometimes goes pretty fast from launch other times it takes years. And that then it can take times to set up a fix program. 

My current Toyota Yaris got a recall about half a year from launce due abs problems. 

My previous Mazda CX-5 got a recall about 2.5 years from launch. This is some time back so I can't recall why. 

Recently Tesla did a big recall too. It has happen to any major car maker. 

So back to the Inmotion situation. Since none know real sales numbers and warrenty claims beside Inmotion themself this will only be speculation. There is only one way to get facts, that is from Inmotion. 

Now Inmotion has posted there are risk of a problem. They also posted they are orchestrated a fix but it will take some time to get this setup and distributed. 

That top part are facts. So looking on the feeling side of this. It is very unfortunate for every one manufactory, resellers and end-customers alike. None wanted this and none profit from this. 

But this doesn't change the current situation no matter how much we like too.

That is the huge difference between facts and opinions. 

I hope it is resolved fast for all parties. But that is a hope only. It does seems that Inmotion is taking this seriously, otherwise they had not posted their announcements on telegram, Instagram and here on the forum. 

Also to keep people informed about this moderators posted a current state warning (pinned in general discussion section), like it has done before when there was a need for it (previous brands have had this all of them). 

So in my opinion right now the only thing to do is wait out for solutions are ready. Keep posting about this will not speed up this anymore. 

And like in cases like this before. Eventually problems are sorted out. 

[Unventor]

11 minutes ago, Planemo said:

And this is where the shit will hit the fan in the western world. If a rider gets seriously hurt (or worse) as a result of a V12 failing due to this fault, even after a dealer has already done the 'stress test', the rider will have every right to go after the dealer for compensation. I know if I was a dealer, there is no way on earth I would be selling ANY V12's right now, even if they did pass the test. It just wouldn't be worth the aggro, or potential financial consequences.

I am pretty sure that resellers are doing their bit to get a resolution from Inmotion. 

How reworks are done in most businesses depends on volume and logistics with a twist of location too. Being a niche product (euc in general) that is why this will cost a lot of money for the manufactory. They know this and will do a lot to avoid situations like this. 

As of safe to ride is below 20-25kmh stated by manual and/or app warning. So the risk each rider accepts when unlocking higher speeds falls back to the operator of the wheel. 

Sueing people or companies is one thing in the US. It is not a clear case in other areas. 

[Planemo]

17 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I am pretty sure that resellers are doing their bit to get a resolution from Inmotion.

I'm sure they are. In the meantime, there are people out there riding ticking time bombs. Probably because I'm not seeing any recalls or indeed any urgent correspondence from dealers or Inmotion telling people to stop riding them. All I hear about is the useless stress test.

17 minutes ago, Unventor said:

As of safe to ride is below 20-25kmh stated by manual and/or app warning.

Come on, you know as well as I do that you can still get seriously injured on an EUC with a 25kmh cut out.

[supercurio]

51 minutes ago, Unventor said:

So back to the Inmotion situation. Since none know real sales numbers and warrenty claims beside Inmotion themself this will only be speculation. There is only one way to get facts, that is from Inmotion. 

Now Inmotion has posted there are risk of a problem. They also posted they are orchestrated a fix but it will take some time to get this setup and distributed. 

That top part are facts. So looking on the feeling side of this. It is very unfortunate for every one manufactory, resellers and end-customers alike. None wanted this and none profit from this. 

But this doesn't change the current situation no matter how much we like too.

That is the huge difference between facts and opinions. 

I hope it is resolved fast for all parties. But that is a hope only. It does seems that Inmotion is taking this seriously, otherwise they had not posted their announcements on telegram, Instagram and here on the forum. 

Also to keep people informed about this moderators posted a current state warning (pinned in general discussion section), like it has done before when there was a need for it (previous brands have had this all of them). 

So in my opinion right now the only thing to do is wait out for solutions are ready. Keep posting about this will not speed up this anymore. 

And like in cases like this before. Eventually problems are sorted out. 

Agree wait out for solutions can be a fine strategy for yourself, if you feel detached enough from the topic.

Let me ask you tho, let's say you just got your V12, it passed the test Whohoo!! you get delivery of it. You're all excited.
Next day you learn that one of the wheels your dealer tested successfully next to yours, died on a small jump, uh-ho.

• What would do you do?
• What does waiting mean in this context: waiting for a replacement board to eventually ride your V12? Your MOSFETs didn't burn: you're not supposed to get one.

Second scenario. You must decide within a couple day if you take delivery of your V12, knowing it might not be safe to ride, or cancel your order. To get another one: wait for 6+ months and add 400-500€ to the initial pre-order price.

• What would do you do?
• What does waiting mean? Waiting is not an option here, a choice has to be made.

Note: that's my own situation right now.

 

Sure, waiting can works but waiting is passive, it works because others are active while you wait.
Ironically, if you're successful convincing everyone to wait, then there's no value in waiting anymore because the principle of delegating to others by delaying your own action disappears.

Edited January 13, 2022 by supercurio

[Tawpie]

5 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Note: that's my own situation right now.

I surprised to read this actually. My move would have been clear and I would resign myself to have to wait until this shakes out. Sure it had all the makings of an absolutely fantastic wheel, but until this is fixed and others have been kind enough to validate the fix, I’d be on the sidelines. I like my teeth and wrists and knees and shoulders the way they are.

[RagingGrandpa]

55 minutes ago, supercurio said:

decide within a couple day if you take delivery of your V12, knowing it might not be safe to ride, or cancel your order

Note: that's my own situation right now.

Oh wow, you didn't cancel yet?! You of all people?!
Your secret optimism is inspiring, after leading the effort to hold Inmo to account, kudos.

I presumed you would have felt fortunate to have learned of this debacle before receiving your EUC, and taken a refund at the first opportunity... what I would have done  

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[supercurio]

@Tawpie @RagingGrandpa let's say it keeps me interested and engaged.

If there is confidence V12 owners (not just me) will get a V12 HT board replacement that's more robust: I'll get a great wheel at at a bargain for the summer season.
In the meantime I would not ride the V12 a single time until the board is upgraded, and use the wheel to try stress tests methods and for app development.

Also I worry about what would happen to someone else getting my V12 if I cancel the order, someone not as informed. Essentially I want to help solve this for everyone, before there's more crash like @Gixxer experienced.

 

Being determined to increase EUC safety, right now it feels more effective to focus on the V12 than spending time with apps or wireless protocols.
Hopefully Inmotion doesn't hate me in the end because I hope to get them on board on the wheel data standardization project.