Paul A Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 Aren't some V12's failing early on, before heat has been sufficiently generated? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, Paul A said: Aren't some V12's failing early on, before heat has been sufficiently generated? Yes. And before any visible compromise is seen on the FET legs/soldering also. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enaon Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 music break 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tawpie Posted January 17, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Paul A said: Assembly order. If that is the assembly order for all the other IM wheels, that might not explain the issue of why it is happening to the V12 though Might not… but V11s have had some “cracked” MOSFETS that to me are likely related to the parts being physically stressed. Parts that crack are not common. 2 hours ago, supercurio said: Is the temperature cycling of the MOSFET affecting the solder joints significantly on top of the misalignment stress Personally, I don’t like to see the parts constrained by their leads and the heat tab without a bend in the leads—specifically to allow somewhere for the thermal stresses to go that isn’t the solder joint or the epoxy package. To me, it’s better practice. The stress due to alignment shouldn’t make the termal stress badly worse, but it isn’t helping. I can’t say with any certainty either way. All I know is I wouldn’t have tried this without tooling to ensure everything was aligned during soldering, and my contemporaries would not have approved it if I had. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Planemo said: But maybe Inmo have to use leaded by law? ROHS means "no lead". Military and life support electronics were exempted for (I believe) 10 years, but I think everyone has to use lead-free now. And the lead-free solders are absolutely known to be much less reliable—they microfracture. It's a metallurgy thing that I don't understand and accepted as fact... to remove the minuscule amount of lead introduced by solder joints we've made assemblies that absolutely will fail earlier, and will enter the waste stream. You don't want to get me started on that one! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 24 minutes ago, Tawpie said: and my contemporaries would not have approved it if I had. I suspect that your contemporaries wouldn't approve of much on a Chinese EUC. I would think that stressed FET legs would be the least of their concerns 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 9 minutes ago, Tawpie said: ROHS means "no lead". Yeah, my point was I have no idea if any wheels are ROHS or not. I suspect they use whatever they can get their hands on, and whatever comes cheapest. Then slap on an ROHS sticker, along with the EU approved one whilst they are at it... 9 minutes ago, Tawpie said: And the lead-free solders are absolutely known to be much less reliable—they microfracture. Precisely why I don't use them. Plus they are crap to work with as I said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul g Posted January 17, 2022 Share Posted January 17, 2022 41 minutes ago, Planemo said: Yeah, my point was I have no idea if any wheels are ROHS or not. I suspect they use whatever they can get their hands on, and whatever comes cheapest. Then slap on an ROHS sticker, along with the EU approved one whilst they are at it... Precisely why I don't use them. Plus they are crap to work with as I said. Work with lead and you’ll be younger for… longer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardo Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 I know environmental contamination is the real driver to phase out lead solder, but I'd like to see a study of old electricians/electrical engineers looking for lead poisoning in them. That would allow me to selfishly and happily keep using lead solder, instead of fretting about wearing gloves while soldering, and worrying about dust from the wire sponge or whatever it's called. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 lol what's up with the Sound Wave in 1.5.4, it's terrible! The original one was subtle and nice sounding will we get that back? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjam.nyc Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 6 hours ago, Rawnei said: lol what's up with the Sound Wave in 1.5.4, it's terrible! The original one was subtle and nice sounding will we get that back? there is a beta firmware with the old soundwave 1.5.7 So i think its possible the old one will come back. Not sure if that beta is still open or not. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrd777 Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 6 hours ago, Rawnei said: what's up with the Sound Wave in 1.5.4, it's terrible! interesting my V12, tells me my firmware is up to date with the latest, 1.5.0 I thought the most current? It has now the original sound wave sound ( batch 1) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 6 minutes ago, Mrd777 said: V12 tells me my firmware is up to date with the latest, 1.5.0 I thought the most current [is 1.5.4]? Update to 1.5.4 via iOS was disabled by Inmotion (maybe from Android now as well?) More firmware discussion here: https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/25723-v12-firmware-154-and-firmware-update-problems/page/2/#comment-395452 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post supercurio Posted January 20, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2022 I had a call this morning with the sales director, R&D director and a few more Inmotion employees, setup by @Cecily Inmotion. Essentially to reach out and see if it's possible to help reaching effective solutions. It was 1h35 long and we talked about a number of topics, ranging from what is happening to riders, how a wheel can fail after passing the stress test, our perception as a community, the warning signs, a technical analysis based on the MOSFET datasheet, how the issue occurs, root cause and investigation, how/why publish investigation results, the V12 HT board, other MOSFET selection, what would happen if replacing only the dead board vs a voluntary recall, safety measures via apps or firmware in the meantime. I'm confident that a recall is the better option for everyone so I made a case for that. A lot was discussed so it'll take a good amount of time to write a recap here, I'll do that later today or tomorrow. In the meantime please ask if you have specific questions on one of the topics listed, then if we talked about that I'll make sure to include it in the recap. If not, since the meeting went well there should be follow-ups. 16 17 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, supercurio said: I had a call this morning with the sales director, R&D director and a few more Inmotion employees, setup by @Cecily Inmotion. Essentially to reach out and see if it's possible to help reaching effective solutions. It was 1h35 long and we talked about a number of topics, ranging from what is happening to riders, how a wheel can fail after passing the stress test, our perception as a community, the warning signs, a technical analysis based on the MOSFET datasheet, how the issue occurs, root cause and investigation, how/why publish investigation results, the V12 HT board, other MOSFET selection, what would happen if replacing only the dead board vs a voluntary recall, safety measures via apps or firmware in the meantime. I'm confident that a recall is the better option for everyone so I made a case for that. A lot was discussed so it'll take a good amount of time to write a recap here, I'll do that later today or tomorrow. In the meantime please ask if you have specific questions on one of the topics listed, then if we talked about that I'll make sure to include it in the recap. If not, since the meeting went well there should be follow-ups. Thanks for putting the time and energy into this. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nosamplesplease Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 50 minutes ago, supercurio said: I had a call this morning with the sales director, R&D director and a few more Inmotion employees, setup by @Cecily Inmotion. Essentially to reach out and see if it's possible to help reaching effective solutions. It was 1h35 long and we talked about a number of topics, ranging from what is happening to riders, how a wheel can fail after passing the stress test, our perception as a community, the warning signs, a technical analysis based on the MOSFET datasheet, how the issue occurs, root cause and investigation, how/why publish investigation results, the V12 HT board, other MOSFET selection, what would happen if replacing only the dead board vs a voluntary recall, safety measures via apps or firmware in the meantime. I'm confident that a recall is the better option for everyone so I made a case for that. A lot was discussed so it'll take a good amount of time to write a recap here, I'll do that later today or tomorrow. In the meantime please ask if you have specific questions on one of the topics listed, then if we talked about that I'll make sure to include it in the recap. If not, since the meeting went well there should be follow-ups. Does the V12 HT board use a different heatsink? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shane Dougherty Posted January 20, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2022 2 hours ago, supercurio said: I had a call this morning with the sales director, R&D director and a few more Inmotion employees, setup by @Cecily Inmotion. Essentially to reach out and see if it's possible to help reaching effective solutions. It was 1h35 long and we talked about a number of topics, ranging from what is happening to riders, how a wheel can fail after passing the stress test, our perception as a community, the warning signs, a technical analysis based on the MOSFET datasheet, how the issue occurs, root cause and investigation, how/why publish investigation results, the V12 HT board, other MOSFET selection, what would happen if replacing only the dead board vs a voluntary recall, safety measures via apps or firmware in the meantime. I'm confident that a recall is the better option for everyone so I made a case for that. A lot was discussed so it'll take a good amount of time to write a recap here, I'll do that later today or tomorrow. In the meantime please ask if you have specific questions on one of the topics listed, then if we talked about that I'll make sure to include it in the recap. If not, since the meeting went well there should be follow-ups. I personally won't be comfortable with the wheel unless the board is replaced. I'm happy to do it myself and I'm super happy that Inmotion would be considering supplying all V12's affected with new boards. Thanks @supercurio and @Cecily Inmotionfor keeping us updated. 3 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jeff Earl Posted January 20, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2022 3 hours ago, supercurio said: I had a call this morning with the sales director, R&D director and a few more Inmotion employees, setup by @Cecily Inmotion. Essentially to reach out and see if it's possible to help reaching effective solutions. It was 1h35 long and we talked about a number of topics, ranging from what is happening to riders, how a wheel can fail after passing the stress test, our perception as a community, the warning signs, a technical analysis based on the MOSFET datasheet, how the issue occurs, root cause and investigation, how/why publish investigation results, the V12 HT board, other MOSFET selection, what would happen if replacing only the dead board vs a voluntary recall, safety measures via apps or firmware in the meantime. I'm confident that a recall is the better option for everyone so I made a case for that. A lot was discussed so it'll take a good amount of time to write a recap here, I'll do that later today or tomorrow. In the meantime please ask if you have specific questions on one of the topics listed, then if we talked about that I'll make sure to include it in the recap. If not, since the meeting went well there should be follow-ups. This is encouraging news. Thanks @supercurioand @Cecily Inmotionfor making this happen! Good to see that Inmotion is listening to customers and devoting some needed attention to this significant issue. It is time that all EUC manufacturers are upfront and transparent with the owners who ultimatly keep them in business. They need to do the right thing, even in the absence of regulations compelling them to do so. Regarding a potential V12 "recall", I think the devil is in the details. I would personally prefer some flexibility in how this is handled. I am sure many of us who are technically adept would prefer to have a self-repair option vs. shipping an entire wheel back to the dealer. A swap of a fully tested controller assembly (MOSFET board mounted to heatsink) would satisfy my requirements nicely and avoid more costly and troublesome shipping arrangements. However, having disassembled the V12 twice now, I realize this is not a realistic approach for everyone. I would like to understand the options under consideration--from the extreme of self-soldering certified/improved MOSFETS to swapping out entire wheels. Fingers-crossed we can make all the V12 owners whole and confident in the safety of their wheels, with minimal detriment to Inmotion and the dealers who are caught in the middle. I think this could be turned into a big win for Inmotion's reputation if handled properly. Just my 2c. 3 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Roberts Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 I guess my question would be if there's clarification over the design and MOSFET choice: Is it fundamentally flawed or is it genuinely down to a bad batch of MOSFETs? Then: What are the changes in the forthcoming HT version? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cress Posted January 20, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2022 'Thank You' Supercurio for talking to the manufacturer. When manufacturing of automobiles and airplanes started in the 20th century a few people did design and development, pushed progress, and were hired by Manufacturers who built the industry that built the machines. Spectacular failures happened because Manufacturers didn't understand the designs they took through the manufacturing process. The public responded to Western Manufacturing failures with pressure campaigns and lawyers. Western Manufacturers fixed manufacturing failures by bringing engineers and scientists into the manufacturing process. The MOSFET failure would not happen in the future with attention to manufacturing choices between design and production. We should do all we can to keep dialog with manufacturers open. 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul g Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 5 hours ago, supercurio said: I'm confident that a recall is the better option for everyone so I made a case for that. That might be the case for people that bought the wheel from a local dealer, but it might be possible, as in my case, that sending the wheel from UK to China just to change the board would not be the best solution. It would be great if InMotion would give us a choice. I wanna thank InMotion for not letting us in the dark and for trying to rethink a solution together with us, the users, as the first one didn’t seem to be answering the real issue. This is really hope giving. And man, thanks for your time. You must be having your job that you must attend, I don’t know how you did it, but it means a great deal to us. Cheers! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Shipping the wheel back, who pays the shipping doh..? Extra expense from customer side is kinda meh.. Simply make more choices. Send to dealer in that area (Who knows what they are doing) Inmotion pays that dealer something for his service.. So customer can bring in his wheel for free exchange of so said mobo. Option where they simply send out mobo to customer. (Whit said contract that customer takes everything in his own hands.. Yeah i know it's gray area.. But some people have only this option..) +They make online guide how to change. From opening wheel and so on.. And simply ship whole wheel back to Inmotion.. (Free of charge.) <Best option. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Richardo Posted January 20, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 20, 2022 Did we ever find another mosfet in the same package that’d theoretically work for an upgrade? Not sure if you saw it, but I posted my existing board swap process here. If inmotion does a mosfet upgrade to a new package i hope they ship it with a new heatsink. Replacing that whole “module” will be easier for DIY than taking off the board and trying to get good thermal contact between everything Especially important will be drilling and tapping new holes in the heatsink for larger mosfets. Seems likely some of the new holes for a larger mosfet package might intersect partially with existing holes, which would be difficult for DIY even if you have a drill press. 1 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Richardo said: Not sure if you saw it, but I posted my existing board swap process here. So Dr., was the operation a success? Did the patient recover from his surgery? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richardo Posted January 21, 2022 Share Posted January 21, 2022 10 minutes ago, Paradox said: So Dr., was the operation a success? Did the patient recover from his surgery? Well i rode it back and forth in my basement a bit but havent done the stress tests or taken it outside. Those are on my list but lifes crazy ahorita 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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