Helmets - do they kill the fun?

[David Reeves]

On 12/16/2020 at 3:28 PM, Darrell Wesh said:

I’m not sure why you consider yourself someone I’m addressing? The people I have in mind that would constitute this “fragile” population is 10% of riders. 

As another “disabled” rider I am with Mrelwood 100% on this, maybe it is your choice of words, but they were poorly chosen, 

as long as people realize the risks, and that applies to everyone, we should be encouraging people into the activity, not making assumptions based on our own perspective.   

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, David Reeves said:

As another “disabled” rider I am with Mrelwood 100% on this, maybe it is your choice of words, but they were poorly chosen, 

as long as people realize the risks, and that applies to everyone, we should be encouraging people into the activity, not making assumptions based on our own perspective.   

There have been plenty of older people who have expressed their interest in riding but that they were scared they were too old and would break every bone, but I’ve told it would be possible to ride.
 

But it doesn’t take a doctor to make judgement on that 10% that you know you would never encourage to be a rider. 
 

You seem to align your perception of this hobby with something it’s not. It IS a form of transportation but the level of risk of falling exceeds and does not align with any other form of transportation. You’re not going to only fall via reckless stuff like stunts and tricks; you can fall merely commuting with normal everyday movements taking no risk other then riding. I don’t know any other form of transportation where you can just fall from a stroll around the neighborhood (I’m looking at motorcycles, bicycles, even longboards you go too slow to risk falling via kicking on flats). One wheel instability combined with the gobs of easily accessible speed because it’s electric, is a recipe for disaster if you want to rationalize it. Make no mistake, simply being an EUC rider is an extreme sport, which is why we get so much respect and stares of wonder. 
 

Ask yourself if you would encourage someone to do an extreme sport without thought. The fact that you seem to want to blindly encourage everyone simply because you think they understand the risks of something they have never participated in doesn’t bode well with me. People are shocked that grass is bumpy! It’s extremely hard to recognize the risks of something you haven’t done and have only had people tell you of. 
 

As far as the gear discussion goes, people’s expectations of gear is unrealistic: it helps, but if you’re fragile, gear doesn’t make you invincible from these types of “high side” falls other then protection from abrasion and head injury. There’s a lot of bones that can break/fracture etc. 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[mike_bike_kite]

On 12/17/2020 at 1:19 AM, Mac said:

I couldn’t understand why you’d wear a helmet paragliding, if you crash you land on your ass.

I used to do paramotoring which is very similar. In our little club of 12 we had 4 die in one year. Obviously every accident is different and I'm not sure whether helmets would have helped but they certainly kept your ears warm and the sound of the engine down.

[Finn Bjerke]

YEAH 

Helmet kills all the fun 
No Helmet kills all of you

Just send me your wheels 

[Flying W]

I think the fragile discussion had a lot to do with motor skills and risk tolerance. A huge amount of non fragile people won't even get on a wheel (this includes my friends that ride diet bikes with me and are in great shape) so I'm guessing many in this group would not want to take up this hobby.

My wife is in a whole other category. She wants to learn and has tried a few times. She had epilepsy and here movements are not very smooth, and worse in stressful situation. If she's holding my forearm she can ride around at a slow jogging speed but she can't make it more than 10 feet without support.

I've come to conclusion that learning how to ride around could be a recipe for a much larger crash if a stressful situation like a dog, a car pulling out or any unexpected something came up. Her movements would be too jerky and she would come off the wheel a much higher speed than our slow jog in the grass at the park. 

I think anyone who accepts that no matter what, any electronics failure means a crash, and feels comfortable with that risk, can give these devices a shot. 

[AtlasP]

On 12/25/2020 at 2:42 AM, Darrell Wesh said:

Make no mistake, simply being an EUC rider is an extreme sport, which is why we get so much respect and stares of wonder. 

Utter nonsense. Your average rider who only does 10-15 mph on a One S1/S2 or V8 (and statistically, that's more than half of all wheels/riders in existence) is not indulging in an extreme anything, certainly not any more than a bicycle or scooter which are not extreme sports. Over 20+ mph then sure, but sub-15 mph just isn't.

Edited December 31, 2020 by AtlasP

[.....]

10 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I used to do paramotoring which is very similar. In our little club of 12 we had 4 die in one year. Obviously every accident is different and I'm not sure whether helmets would have helped but they certainly kept your ears warm and the sound of the engine down.

Helmet in paramotoring is for mainly prop strikes and falls during land/TO. Aside from comfort and communications. I would assume in paragliding its more for bumping your head on shit during bad landings and takeoffs. Some of the most fun activities tend to be a bit dangerous..   Because of the sheer noise in paramotoring, Im not certain a helmet kills the fun of it. 4 in a year, whew.. sounds like the dice won quite a bit. Can't beat the odds forever, or at least you cant assume you will. Sorry to hear about the losses and happy for those that preferred that exit strategy.

Edited December 25, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Darrell Wesh]

42 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Utter nonsense. Your average rider who only does 10-15 mph on a One S1 or V8 (and statistically, that's more than half of all riders) is not indulging in an extreme anything, certainly not any more than a bicycle or scooter which are not extreme sports.

Uhh look up extreme sports on Wikipedia. You’d be surprised at what is defined as “extreme”. You are pretty bias though since you’re an EUC rider and can’t seem to remember when you thought riding one wheel was highly reckless. 

[Mac]

What risk? You fall down, you skid across the ground a little bit, you get up no problem...

I thoughtfully encourage people to do extreme sports! 

I’m 68 I encourage anyone that will listen to fly with me, ski, paraglide, sail, moto-x, soar a sailplane, ride bikes, even ride EUC’s! I encourage them to get off their dead asses and do anything that holds their interest! All of these things have inherent risk. Yet of all the things I do daily, driving a car has the most risk associated with it. I’ve never thought of asking anyone if they understand the risks involved when they get in the car.

Fragility has nothing to do with it! Stupid might, but then there is Darwin. 

Risk has nothing to do with it! It’s your frame of mind. 

I have friends that are sitting in nursing homes, others that sit in front of the TV just waiting to die. What a wast of life. Yes they are safe secure, and for what?

Because I’m older it might hurt a little more when I crash. On the other hand I’m not traveling at break neck speeds and weaving in and out of traffic. Maybe my older, wiser, fragile self has better odds than my younger cohorts on this forum. 

Besides, Jack Daniels steady’s the nerve and is a delicious way to medicate those little aches and pains!

Edited December 26, 2020 by Mac

[David Reeves]

23 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I used to do paramotoring which is very similar. In our little club of 12 we had 4 die in one year. Obviously every accident is different and I'm not sure whether helmets would have helped but they certainly kept your ears warm and the sound of the engine down.

That’s interesting and a bit worrying, admittedly I haven’t flown in 10 years, but in those days Paramotoring was generally considered to be at least as safe if not safer than paragliding due to the higher wing loading, also most paramotor pilots tended to be already experienced paraglide pilots.

[mike_bike_kite]

It's safer from that point of view. It's also safer because I believe you get more choice in what weather you can fly in so you don't feel pressurised to fly in questionable conditions. Having propellers right behind the head sounds dangerous but isn't more dangerous in practise (you do get cases of people loosing fingers etc though). The real issue in our group was the rather lax view on personal safety - our group was called the Lemmings for a reason - so loop the loops and spiral dives down to the landing zone weren't unusual. All the deaths in our group were from ground impacts, usually from acrobatics or trying out the limits on new experimental kit. They were a fun crowd though.

 

[Flying W]

@Mac your keeping the dream alive! It's nice to hear another person in my dad's age bracket (he's 70) also isn't wasting the days as a couch potato! 

Good on you! 

[Mac]

That’s another thing, racing paragliders! The are probably the slowest aircraft in the air and to race you are on a wing that might get you another knot or two at the expense of any stability! Stupid!! There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.

Never really liked the PPG thing. I guess because I like soaring, I’d rather have the quiet of the sport, and I’m pretty sure I lost some hearing on a PPG.

On Maui, we used to get up every morning that was flyable head to the Levander Gardens at Haleakala and fly a couple of hours before we went to work. Ahh... those were the days.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Mac

[r_713]

I didn't read through this entire thread, so apologies if someone else provided this comment but, without a helmet the fun will kill you.

[.....]

11 hours ago, Mac said:

That’s another thing, racing paragliders! The are probably the slowest aircraft in the air and to race you are on a wing that might get you another knot or two at the expense of any stability! Stupid!! There are old pilots, and there are bold pilots, but there are no old, bold pilots.

Never really liked the PPG thing. I guess because I like soaring, I’d rather have the quiet of the sport, and I’m pretty sure I lost some hearing on a PPG.

On Maui, we used to get up every morning that was flyable head to the Levander Gardens at Haleakala and fly a couple of hours before we went to work. Ahh... those were the days.

Waking up to Maui, why WOULD you need a motor? And why would you ever move to WA?

@r_713 The fun will kill you if you're lucky, helmet or not

Edited December 27, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

You seem to align your perception of this hobby with something it’s not.

This is exactly what he was talking about, you making expectations and drawing wildly wrong conclusions. He didn’t even describe his perception of the hobby.

 I’m pretty sure that you don’t personally know any people with any kind of physical disability. Because your comments make it sound like you have an inhumanely distant approach towards us.

 

Quote

Ask yourself if you would encourage someone to do an extreme sport without thought. The fact that you seem to want to blindly encourage everyone simply because you think they understand the risks of something they have never participated in doesn’t bode well with me.

I’m absolutely sure that people like me and @David Reeves consider the risks of riding to a much higher degree than 99+% of healthy riders ever do. There is absolutely nothing blind or thoughtless about it. Our position has nothing to do with how we think other people assess the risk. That’s what you seen to do, discourage riding because you think a certain group of people isn’t capable of understanding the risks. Our risk assessment is not up to you, Darrell. It is a personal choice to each and every rider themselves, healthy or not.

 Fat people can’t run off a crash, and harm themselves much worse when they fall. Should none of them even try riding?

Quote

There’s a lot of bones that can break/fracture etc. 

What is the percentage of professional athletes experiencing bodily harm that will cause more than a week of sick leave? Did they all enter the profession without proper thought?

Edited December 30, 2020 by mrelwood

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I’m pretty sure that you don’t personally know any people with any kind of physical disability. Because your comments make it sound like you have an inhumanely distant approach towards us.

I have been following this thread, and have found the various comments quite enlightening. The one above was a bit of a turning point for me.

First off, I don't know any people with a physical disability but I didn't think I was inhuman at all towards those who have.

Prior to this thread, I think I would have been with Darrell on this. I feel that EUC riding is by default 'dangerous' relative to many other hobbies or vehicles. Primarily because a small error is much more likely to lead to a crash than most other vehicles. Following on from that, most EUC crashes are going to be more severe due to the mechanics of the fall.

With that in mind, I admit that previous to this thread I may have swayed anyone with a disability, the elderly or those with fragile bones to maybe look elsewhere for their fun. I now realise that this wouldn't be the right approach. Whilst it may still be acceptable to explain the risks (along with the good bits of course), I should not be trying to steer any individual not to ride.

Yours and @David Reeves posts have opened my eyes and for that I thank you, and I realise now that my approach to it all would have been totally wrong, if not upsetting or worse, offensive.

I think you were absolutely right with the comment regarding those (like me) not knowing anyone with a disability - those who think we are fair, open, tolerant and helpful to people who have disabilities may actually, sub-consciously, not be that helpful at all. The fact that I may have inadvertently actually ended up offending someone fills me with sorrow.

I have certainly learnt something here. Thanks.

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m pretty sure that you don’t personally know any people with any kind of physical disability. Because your comments make it sound like you have an inhumanely distant approach towards us.

Couldn’t be more wrong @mrelwood. My job deals specifically with clients with mental and/or physical disabilities.

 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

you making expectations and drawing wildly wrong conclusions

Aww, the pot calling the kettle black!
 

It’s because of this capacity to understand this population that I take such a stance; while you seem to hold such a strong conviction coming only from your emotionally charged single minded personal experiences. Just because you PERSONALLY have experience because you’re handicap, doesn’t make your stance above and beyond someone else, especially someone who deals with this population on a daily basis. 

I get it. You feel personally attacked because you fall in line with the population I don’t encourage to ride.

But you still somehow fail to understand that my point isn’t to attack “fragile” riders, or to discourage them. There’s a vast difference between being a bully and discouraging someone vs being caring and not encouraging someone. 

And you also struggle to come to grips with the reality of my points being objective and therefore unable to be touted as discouraging. If I tell you that it’s easier to fall on an electric unicycle then an electric bicycle that’s objective, it may seem discouraging to hear the truth, but that level of transparency is from a far greater respect then sugarcoating something. If you can’t handle hearing the truth don’t tell me I’m trying to be discouraging. 
 

As I said before, I would encourage that subset to pick other PEV’s if we had a discussion. But besides telling them the facts in comparison of other PEV’s vs EUC’s, I wouldn’t antagonize/discourage their choice of trying an EUC. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[Darrell Wesh]

28 minutes ago, Planemo said:

those who think we are fair, open, tolerant and helpful to people who have disabilities may actually, sub-consciously, not be that helpful at all. The fact that I may have inadvertently actually ended up offending someone fills me with sorrow.

 

29 minutes ago, Planemo said:

now realise that this wouldn't be the right approach. Whilst it may still be acceptable to explain the risks (along with the good bits of course), I should not be trying to steer any individual not to ride.

As long as you aren’t telling that specific population they “Can’t”, or discouraging them with lies, you are doing your moral duty to provide truth and transparency. That truth and transparency SEEMS like discouragement when aimed at the handicap, but the other side is disrespectful: deception and sugarcoating. 
 

If someone asks for my opinion on if they should ride an EUC, how could I be the bad guy for giving them advice they sought and encouraging other forms of PEV? That’s absurd. I’m sure they don’t hope my advice will be highly subjective and blatantly misleading just to support their wishes. There is a popular saying “the truth hurts“. @mrelwoodmust learn to seperate his emotions from his own personal bias with that of reason. 

[mike_bike_kite]

Personally, I think the topic should be closed. There's nothing really to learn here and no-one's going to change their opinion. 

[Rawnei]

A physical disability isn't a mental disability, an adult with a physical disability can make their own conclusions and calculate their own risks and don't really need someone else to point out what's dangerous for them or recommend what they should or should not do, that's up to any adult individual to determine for themselves what you can do is provide information about EUC's and share your experience from riding them.

I mean it's the exact same thing with helmets, up to every individual what risks they want to take.

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

A physical disability isn't a mental disability, an adult with a physical disability can make their own conclusions and calculate their own risks and don't really need someone else to point out what's dangerous for them or recommend what they should or should not do, that's up to any adult individual to determine for themselves what you can do is provide information about EUC's and share your experience from riding them.

I mean it's the exact same thing with helmets, up to every individual what risks they want to take.

That’s exactly what I just said, not sure why you posted the beginning spiel about mental disabilities as if you were targeting my response. 
 

And you have a lot to learn about mental disabilities because most of these people are very capable of making their own decisions and are in fact their own guardians despite being labeled as having ID 

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

I mean it's the exact same thing with helmets, up to every individual what risks they want to take.

Well that depends. Some countries do have a law to follow. 

And if you are traveling at moped or faster speeds, I think most countries have a law to wear a helmet certified for those speeds. 

Some laws are in place as some people do not make common sense decisions. Other just don't know better. 

And I am pretty sure that if someone get a head injury, what they though was fun before all of a sudden don't see as fun anymore. 

Loose a hand or a leg and life can go on. A critical head trauma will have very different implications. 

Personally I think the thread here in its title point toward poor common sense. 

[Rawnei]

1 minute ago, Darrell Wesh said:

That’s exactly what I just said, not sure why you posted the beginning spiel about mental disabilities as if you were targeting my response. 
 

And you have a lot to learn about mental disabilities because most of these people are very capable of making their own decisions and are in fact their own guardians despite being labeled as having ID 

There was no point making a blanket statement about mental disabilities, by this point you are just arguing for arguing sake, this thread is already derailed can we stay on topic and discuss helmets?

[Darrell Wesh]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

There was no point making a blanket statement about mental disabilities, by this point you are just arguing for arguing sake, this thread is already derailed can we stay on topic and discuss helmets?

You were the one who wanted to seperate the two as if you knew what you were talking about. Now you’re mad that something you posted about that’s blatantly wrong is getting targeted? 

I honestly don’t think you read what led up to this. @mrelwood challenged my integrity by claiming he doesn’t think I have ever dealt with anyone handicap before. While calling out my statements as “drawing wild conclusions”. How ironic when I then point out that my job is in fact to deal with physical and mental handicaps. I posted the mental part because I merely posted what my job does, I didn’t expect someone like yourself to grasp that one word and make a whole statement about it. 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Darrell Wesh