City & difficult offroad - v8f vs v10f (or similar)

[Llorx]

Hi!

About 2 weeks ago I got my first EUC. Got a cheap second hand v5f. I don't mind if it was scratched or whatever as it was for learning, and glad I've done so as I dropped it to the ground tons of times.

Today I went offroad. Had a lot of dirt, gravel, a lot of holes and bumps. I managed to almost deplete the battery only falling once (actually was the worse fall I ever had haha), but the experience was not as nice as I wanted. I was worried and always struggling to not fall/avoid bad terrain instead of enjoying the travel, so I'm planning to buy a wheel valid both for the town and offroad.

I live in a small town that has a lot of offroad paths between towns, for the plantation fields and such (also has proper roads, but I'm not going to travel with the EUC with a lot of cars passing by), and I like to go from town to town when I get the EUC.

Well, the thing is that I know that a wide tire is better for offroad, specially when you go through piles of dirt where the wheel plunges a bit. I thought into buying a v8f as everyone says that is the perfect mix for casual riding, but saw that although the wheel is bigger, its width is the same as the v5f (2.125'') so I don't know if this will actually help me with my offroad travels. Later I saw that there's the v10f with a tire width of 2.5'', but I'm not sure if it will fit well with town travelling (to the drug store, the supermarket, or whatever) and when the covid thingy ends, I plan to go to the work with my EUC instead of walking a bunch of minutes, so I need to get up/down stairs, enter/exit a crowded train and such.

Well, I know that each one has its own preference and feelings about this. Simply I want to hear yours. I'm open to buy any EUC, not only inmotion ones.

TL;DR: Opinion about wheels for city travel, including trains/subways but also for difficult offroad travel with tons of dirt, gravel, holes and bumps.

I weight about 84kg (185lb) and my height is 172cm (68 inches) (aprox. I don't remember well).

[Llorx]

Ok. I just saw a 2.5'' tire mod for the v8 here

I guess that it will fit the v8f also. I have a dremel with PVC cutting disks so can be a chance maybe. By the way I still want to hear your thoughts.

[Llorx]

Oh, another reason to go with inmotion was the push-up button that pauses the wheel. Is perfect for city travelling.

[mrelwood]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:21 PM, Jorge Fuentes González said:

TL;DR: Opinion about wheels for city travel

16X, V10F, V11.

On 7/2/2020 at 8:21 PM, Jorge Fuentes González said:

including trains/subways

V8F, V10F.

On 7/2/2020 at 8:21 PM, Jorge Fuentes González said:

but also for difficult offroad travel

MSX/MSP, 16X, Nikola.

On 7/2/2020 at 8:21 PM, Jorge Fuentes González said:

with tons of dirt, gravel, holes and bumps.

MSX/MSP, V11.

 You are asking for a single wheel to do almost all far edges of the spectrum, which unfortunately means big compromises. Either you carry a heavy wheel, or you take it very carefully while off-roading. No way around that.

 Since it boils down to a compromise, it’s hard for others to know how you weigh each aspect. So you have to figure out which is more important, a light wheel (and how light?) or a good off-roader?

 For me personally... Carrying a wheel takes only a few seconds, while enjoying the stability of a larger wheel is obvious every meter you ride. So I would much rather build up on my strength than to sacrifice dearly on the largest enjoyment the mankind has been able to produce thus far... 

[Mike Sacristan]

It depends on your priorities and also how you define riding in those circumstances.

City riding: I live in Stockholm. If I am riding in the actual busy city I want to make it clear to all cars that there is no point in trying to pass me and that I am not an obstacle for them to pass. Preferably I will want a 100v wheel here. Preferably an MSP or Monster although I can get by with the Nikola+ as long as I scan carefully and have appropriate tyre pressure. A mistake would be costly though.

Off-road: Definitions of off-road may vary. The best of the best would be the MSP. Then the 16X for technical stuff. Then the MSX. Then the others. I have yet to smoke an 18XL rider on my MSX or 16X despite having a superior wheel and +10000km experience.

Getting on a crowded train or bus: At this point I would feel that I have failed at life. My EUC is my bus and my train. For a long bus/train trip on an exceptionally crowded train it would just be like any other luggage. If size were an issue I would start looking at measurements and comparing EUC volume/dimensions.

The 18XL is still one of the best "do it all" wheels out there.

 

 

[travsformation]

@Jorge Fuentes González Congrats on off-roading on a V5F, that's not an easy task with that tire diameter! 

There are a few more questions that might help us narrow down your search: Do you have a maximum budget? How much carrying will you be doing? (a lot of stairs? Once or twice a day, or more?). What are the riding conditions in the city where you will be riding? Are there a lot of bike lanes? Are there streets that you're allowed to ride on? (in Barcelona, we can ride on streets where the speed limit is  30 kmh)? Do you plan on using your wheel to go exploring, as a hobby as well as for transportation? What's the distance to the furthest town that you can reach by unpaved trails and would like to go to on your EUC? Do you enjoy riding fast (in other sports you've done, for example). Are you an adrenaline junkie?  

Instead of giving you my recommendations, I'll share my personal upgrade path, which might be useful to you:

I started with an Inmotion V8. In my opinion, an excellent wheel to learn on. After less than 2 months, I wanted something more powerful and with more range. I lived in a residential area in the mountains and the V8's range meant 15 km to visit somewhere and 15 km back. Maximum. It might not sound that bad on paper, but in reality, riding at 25 km/h, that's little over an hour of riding (1/2h to get there and 1/2h to return). When I got into off-roading, I realized the V8 isn't great for off-roading either (narrow tire, not the best pedal height, could use more torque, etc.). And more importantly, it didn't have enough safety margin for my taste. 30 km/h is a comfortable speed to ride at (my cruising speed on my current wheels is about 35 km/h, although lately it's increasing more towards 40 km/h...), BUT, it's also the V8's maximum speed. Riding at the wheel's top speed means you have zero safety margin: if you hit a bump, it's quite likely the wheel will cut off and you will say hello to the ground with your face. So for me, the V8's safe maximum speed is 25 km/h, which is too low for me. 

So I upgraded to a Kingsong 18XL. It's an excellent wheel, probably one of the best all-rounders out there: nice sized tire, good for off-roading (even better since the 2.0 firmware update, which gave it much more torque), nice pedal size (I got the XL pedals), comfortable for long-distance cruising, great range, speed was more than enough for my needs (at the time), good safety margin (riding at 35 km/h you have plenty of safety margin), etc. Also has a great trolley handle and lift sensor (KS's trolley handles are the best in the market in my opinion). It was the perfect wheel at the time.

Eventually, I decided to sell my V8 and replace it with something for the city, that was easier to carry around. Nowadays, having only one wheel and no backup wheel isn't conceivable to me 😅

I was initially going to buy a Tesla V2, but I like off-roading too much and didn't want to have a long-range wheel and a short-range wheel that limited me, so I ended up buying a 16X instead. I'm very happy I made that choice, it's currently my favourite wheel. It's even better than the 18XL at off-roading: what it loses in "the power to roll over rocks", it gains in torque, maneuverability and tire width (= stability & comfort). The range is also excellent (at my weight---70 kg---I could easily do more than 100 km without recharging if I ride conservatively).  I love it for overall riding in the city too, it feels very stable even at 45 km/h thanks to the wide tire (except for bumps, where it's a bit jumpy, not as planted as the 18XL), and is so agile and fun to ride! I think I'd choose it over the 18XL in any circumstance.

The only scenario where I imagined (past) myself preferring the 18XL is for long-distance, on-road tours with higher cruising speeds. Above 40 km/h, I feel safer on the 18XL in terms of the motor and safety margin. But not in terms of stability: now that I'm used to the 3" tire, the 18XL feels less stable at speed. I'm also starting to ride faster, and wouldn't mind some extra safety margin. I'm not an adrenaline junkie, I don't plan on cruising at or above 50 km/h (at least that's what I say now...), but now that I avoid bicycle lanes like the plague and among traffic, I want to be able to speed up, keep up, avoid being passed, and ride with the peace of mind that my wheel isn't going to cut off, that I have plenty of safety margin and that I'm not going to get a brown-pants KS tiltback at any moment, which is why I'll probably be replacing the 18XL with an MSP 😅

So as you can see, in a year and 1/2 of riding, as I've learned, gained experience, and my riding style has evolved, so have my priorities, so what was perfect for me one year ago is now no longer ideal. I still think the V8 was a great wheel to learn on, but wouldn't ride one now, it's too slow for me. I still think the Tesla would have been a great wheel, but the more I ride, the longer my rides get (a quick afternoon spin is now easily 50 km to me), so I wouldn't buy anything with less than 1500Wh in batteries. The 18XL still seems like a fantastic, balanced wheel to me, and if I hadn't bought the 16X, I don't think I'd feel any need whatsoever to upgrade. And the 16X is the most fun wheel to ride on the market, IMO, and the best overall in terms of everything except riding at speed.

For mixed use (city riding, off-roading) and if I never planned on riding above 40 km/h, I would choose the 16X without hesitation.

Edited July 5, 2020 by travsformation

[Llorx]

@mrelwood @Mike Sacristan @travsformation Reading you all, I guess that I'm looking more an offroad wheel than a paved road wheel (maybe 30% paved, 70% offroad?). The 16X seems the winner here. Thank you :-)

 

On 7/4/2020 at 12:28 PM, mrelwood said:

16X, V10F, V11.

V8F, V10F.

MSX/MSP, 16X, Nikola.

MSX/MSP, V11.

 You are asking for a single wheel to do almost all far edges of the spectrum, which unfortunately means big compromises. Either you carry a heavy wheel, or you take it very carefully while off-roading. No way around that.

 Since it boils down to a compromise, it’s hard for others to know how you weigh each aspect. So you have to figure out which is more important, a light wheel (and how light?) or a good off-roader?

 For me personally... Carrying a wheel takes only a few seconds, while enjoying the stability of a larger wheel is obvious every meter you ride. So I would much rather build up on my strength than to sacrifice dearly on the largest enjoyment the mankind has been able to produce thus far... 

Yeah, I've been reading all this weekend while I was visiting my parents and I reached the conclusion that I need 2 wheels. One for the town-to-town offroad travel with some paved road and other for the casual/city days. Maybe I keep the v5f for those city&commuting travels because in the city they are pushing 25/kmh limits for these wheels, so I'm not going to win much with a powerful one than the range, which I think that the v5f fits.

 

On 7/4/2020 at 2:01 PM, Mike Sacristan said:

It depends on your priorities and also how you define riding in those circumstances.

City riding: I live in Stockholm. If I am riding in the actual busy city I want to make it clear to all cars that there is no point in trying to pass me and that I am not an obstacle for them to pass. Preferably I will want a 100v wheel here. Preferably an MSP or Monster although I can get by with the Nikola+ as long as I scan carefully and have appropriate tyre pressure. A mistake would be costly though.

Off-road: Definitions of off-road may vary. The best of the best would be the MSP. Then the 16X for technical stuff. Then the MSX. Then the others. I have yet to smoke an 18XL rider on my MSX or 16X despite having a superior wheel and +10000km experience.

Getting on a crowded train or bus: At this point I would feel that I have failed at life. My EUC is my bus and my train. For a long bus/train trip on an exceptionally crowded train it would just be like any other luggage. If size were an issue I would start looking at measurements and comparing EUC volume/dimensions.

The 18XL is still one of the best "do it all" wheels out there.

 

 

Here city riding is slow (25 kmh max) and only on specific lanes. There are streets where you have to get off and walk to the next street (yeah...), so I don't mind having something with 25 kmh max (like the v5f), and there's a lot of walking/train travel so I guess the battery will last until I reach my destination (btw is a guess. Have not been in the city yet).

For train travel (I know is a fail haha, but city laws, you know), more than dimensions, I was talking about weight, trolley and lift sensor, as I'm going to take about 3 trains and one bus. That's a lot of ups/downs.

 

23 hours ago, travsformation said:

@Jorge Fuentes González Congrats on off-roading on a V5F, that's not an easy task with that tire diameter! 

There are a few more questions that might help us narrow down your search: Do you have a maximum budget? How much carrying will you be doing? (a lot of stairs? Once or twice a day, or more?). What are the riding conditions in the city where you will be riding? Are there a lot of bike lanes? Are there streets that you're allowed to ride on? (in Barcelona, we can ride on streets where the speed limit is  30 kmh)? Do you plan on using your wheel to go exploring, as a hobby as well as for transportation? What's the distance to the furthest town that you can reach by unpaved trails and would like to go to on your EUC? Do you enjoy riding fast (in other sports you've done, for example). Are you an adrenaline junkie?  

Instead of giving you my recommendations, I'll share my personal upgrade path, which might be useful to you:

I started with an Inmotion V8. In my opinion, an excellent wheel to learn on. After less than 2 months, I wanted something more powerful and with more range. I lived in a residential area in the mountains and the V8's range meant 15 km to visit somewhere and 15 km back. Maximum. It might not sound that bad on paper, but in reality, riding at 25 km/h, that's little over an hour of riding (1/2h to get there and 1/2h to return). When I got into off-roading, I realized the V8 isn't great for off-roading either (narrow tire, not the best pedal height, could use more torque, etc.). And more importantly, it didn't have enough safety margin for my taste. 30 km/h is a comfortable speed to ride at (my cruising speed on my current wheels is about 35 km/h, although lately it's increasing more towards 40 km/h...), BUT, it's also the V8's maximum speed. Riding at the wheel's top speed means you have zero safety margin: if you hit a bump, it's quite likely the wheel will cut off and you will say hello to the ground with your face. So for me, the V8's safe maximum speed is 25 km/h, which is too low for me. 

So I upgraded to a Kingsong 18XL. It's an excellent wheel, probably one of the best all-rounders out there: nice sized tire, good for off-roading (even better since the 2.0 firmware update, which gave it much more torque), nice pedal size (I got the XL pedals), comfortable for long-distance cruising, great range, speed was more than enough for my needs (at the time), good safety margin (riding at 35 km/h you have plenty of safety margin), etc. Also has a great trolley handle and lift sensor (KS's trolley handles are the best in the market in my opinion). It was the perfect wheel at the time.

Eventually, I decided to sell my V8 and replace it with something for the city, that was easier to carry around. Nowadays, having only one wheel and no backup wheel isn't conceivable to me 😅

I was initially going to buy a Tesla V2, but I like off-roading too much and didn't want to have a long-range wheel and a short-range wheel that limited me, so I ended up buying a 16X instead. I'm very happy I made that choice, it's currently my favourite wheel. It's even better than the 18XL at off-roading: what it loses in "the power to roll over rocks", it gains in torque, maneuverability and tire width (= stability & comfort). The range is also excellent (at my weight---70 kg---I could easily do more than 100 km without recharging if I ride conservatively).  I love it for overall riding in the city too, it feels very stable even at 45 km/h thanks to the wide tire (except for bumps, where it's a bit jumpy, not as planted as the 18XL), and is so agile and fun to ride! I think I'd choose it over the 18XL in any circumstance.

The only scenario where I imagined (past) myself preferring the 18XL is for long-distance, on-road tours with higher cruising speeds. Above 40 km/h, I feel safer on the 18XL in terms of the motor and safety margin. But not in terms of stability: now that I'm used to the 3" tire, the 18XL feels less stable at speed. I'm also starting to ride faster, and wouldn't mind some extra safety margin. I'm not an adrenaline junkie, I don't plan on cruising at or above 50 km/h (at least that's what I say now...), but now that I avoid bicycle lanes like the plague and among traffic, I want to be able to speed up, keep up, avoid being passed, and ride with the peace of mind that my wheel isn't going to cut off, that I have plenty of safety margin and that I'm not going to get a brown-pants KS tiltback at any moment, which is why I'll probably be replacing the 18XL with an MSP 😅

So as you can see, in a year and 1/2 of riding, as I've learned, gained experience, and my riding style has evolved, so have my priorities, so what was perfect for me one year ago is now no longer ideal. I still think the V8 was a great wheel to learn on, but wouldn't ride one now, it's too slow for me. I still think the Tesla would have been a great wheel, but the more I ride, the longer my rides get (a quick afternoon spin is now easily 50 km to me), so I wouldn't buy anything with less than 1500Wh in batteries. The 18XL still seems like a fantastic, balanced wheel to me, and if I hadn't bought the 16X, I don't think I'd feel any need whatsoever to upgrade. And the 16X is the most fun wheel to ride on the market, IMO, and the best overall in terms of everything except riding at speed.

For mixed use (city riding, off-roading) and if I never planned on riding above 40 km/h, I would choose the 16X without hesitation.

Thank you hahaha. Yeah, first times I tried offroad was failing every time 'til I noticed that I have to flex my knees, so they act like a suspension system. By the way I fail from time to time. This weekend I went to another town with completely different roads (different humidity, only compacted dirt, almost no dust but way more gravel) and I had a hard fall again because of a medium rock, but I'm loving it each time haha. Can't wait to buy a better wheel for this 

Maximum budget is about 2000€. Maybe I can push a bit more (or look for decent second hand deals) so I'll try my best to buy what I think I need without limiting myself. There will be a lot of stairs and such, yeah, but only once a week. By the way that day I would like to have a comfortable city commuting. In the city we are really limited so I need to get off and walk with the EUC a lot of times to reach streets that I'm allowed to ride. I'm not a "speed guy". I'm more a "skills guy" (I think that's why I'm loving offroad so much) so I prefer fast reactions more than top speed. Looking how I feel with a 25kmh top speed wheel, I think that a 35-40kmh top speed one will suit me.

Thank you a lot for your personal experience. This is what I was actually looking for ^^. This weekend I've read a lot of things. And I was thinking about a 18'' wheel, but I'm not sure about the loss of maneuverability. I was then going for a 16S with a 2.5 tire mod I saw on the forums. Nice weight, 16'' wheel with a 2.5'' width, almost triple range than my current one which is really nice for my needings and with the 2.0 firmware update the whinning goes away. But I noticed 2 problems: the voltage (lower than the v5f), which seems that is important to have the "fast reactions" I want, and the Kingsong throttle when you reach certain battery level, which is a big tradeoff for me as now I'm noticing a throttle in the v5f and I'm hating it haha. Then I've read about Gotway and their throttle, so I thoght about the Tesla v2 with another 2.5'' tire mod (which is going to be a bit more difficult that the 16S mod, but something I can do without problems, I guess). I think that my travels are not going to be much longer than I do not with my v5f, so having triple battery is more than enough (but that's what I say now, as a noob).

By the way, looking that, like me, you are not a speed demon, how do you feel with the 16X throttle? I think that 3'' instead of 2.5'' is a good thing for my way of travelling with EUC, although a 24kg is way more than the 20kg limit I had on my head xD does not feel "heavy on the legs"?

EDIT: I've just read that Kingsong has set the throttle to 30% instead of 50%, which is nice. I guess that the throttle is not that bad now.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Jorge Fuentes González

[FinRider]

Don’t go for the 16S. It is an ”old wheel” that is suitable as a starter wheel... and it does not excel at off-roading, so it probably would not fit your needs. The only reason one should consider this in your situation would be from a budget standpoint as a used 16s can be picked up for €800 or so. You mentioned your budget was €2k, so why not look at one of the suspension wheels? You have the v5f for your city riding and the suspension wheels really seem to thrive off-road and they are within your budget.

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

You mentioned your budget was €2k, so why not look at one of the suspension wheels?

I second that. The S18 for example isn't too big or too heavy, and looks like a very comfortable offroad and city rider.

Edited July 6, 2020 by meepmeepmayer
clarification

[Tazarinho]

I have had a similar experience as @travsformation, but without the 18XL. 

While I had the V8 I was already drawn to serious offroading, but since I'm also a heavy guy (92 kg ungeared) it wasn't powerful enough for me and I was always too close to the limit. The KS 16X for me has proven the answer to most of my riding. It's a great off-roader, except maybe in mud (but still better than the V8). I regularly take the train with my it. as I either tend to ride somewhere to the extent of my range and then take the train back, or take the train somewhere and ride back, depending on whether my starting location is higher or lower than my home town, as I like to maximise range. I originally kept the V8 for small errands in town, but I find myself still favoring the 16X over it, so my girlfriend now rides the V8.

I find both comfortable to trolley around, but in narrow places, such as shop aisles, it can be less convenient. If you have a lot of stairs, the 16X can get tiring, even though I'm a fairly strong person (not all of my weight is of the useless kind). I've even had to carry the wheel up a metal ladder that was bolted into the rock on a hiking trail, and while I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, it's still possible.

Anyway, so I think a 16X could fit your needs, but then of course I am heavily biased as a happy 16X owner.

[meepmeepmayer]

Maybe to help you make a choice, for me there are three categories of wheels:

1. Small wheels that I personally don't take very seriously. Used for fun or when not just the riding itself counts (e.g. low weight or being carryable). Small batteries and low power, or some other restriction.
   For example: mten3, your V5F, V8, even the V8F with it's comparably small battery
2. Bigger wheels that aren't performance wheels yet because they lack the ultimate speed, power, and big battery size. But very nice secondary wheels or perfect city commuters for everyday practical, serious use. Usually a bit lighter, and nicer/sleeker looking.
   For example: the 16S (I'd no longer buy that), the V10 and V10F, the S18, maybe the V11.
3. Performance wheels that offer the state of the art in speed, battery size, power. Big and heavy and bulky and more utilitarian looking. Maybe too big and heavy and impractical if you don't purely ride them but also carry them, take them on a train, etc.
   For example: Nikola, 16X, MSP/MSX, 18XL, Sherman, etc. Maybe the V11 also because it's quite big and heavy.

You're coming from category 1 so everything is going to be a huge upgrade for you. You can think about if you want to go for a pure performance-over-everything-else wheel from category 3, or go for a maybe more practical (for you) wheel from category 2.

It's not so much about what is right or wrong for you, but what is most pleasant and convenient for you. And don't take the categories too strictly, the MSP for example is rather light and small in comparison, the V11 is (for me) somewhere between 2 and 3, and so on.

Good news is, you'll be happy with pretty much every wheel, they're all great and will be a huge upgrade for you. But maybe it helps if you think about what kind of wheel would be most pleasant for you to own. Pure performance when riding (cat 3) or a sleeker, lighter, sexier compromise (cat 2). Trust your instincts there.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Jorge Fuentes González said:

Looking how I feel with a 25kmh top speed wheel, I think that a 35-40kmh top speed one will suit me.

You know, almost all of us have said the exact same thing at one point or another! The thing is, if you have only ridden a low powered 14” wheel, you can not even begin to imagine how much more stable an 18” wheel (for example) feels like, and how 25km/h on the V5F feels much less stable than 50km/h on an 18-incher. I wouldn’t have the guts to go 25km/h on a V5F, but I have no problem reaching 50km/h on the 84V MSX.

 Same goes for the battery. After 6 months on my first wheel I was ready to buy a wheel that can reach 30km/h and have 20km of range. I bought the 16S and thought that I’d never reach its top speed of 35km/h, or run out of battery... Now my regular ride tops out at 47km/h and empties the 1600Wh battery.

 In not saying that incremental purchases are bad. Just keep in mind that your current requirements are going to jump up quite soon after you familiarize yourself with a more capable wheel.

 Do all you can to meet other riders, and ask politely if your could try their wheels. It could be the best possible recipe for a successful purchase.

[Llorx]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

Don’t go for the 16S. It is an ”old wheel” that is suitable as a starter wheel... and it does not excel at off-roading, so it probably would not fit your needs. The only reason one should consider this in your situation would be from a budget standpoint as a used 16s can be picked up for €800 or so. You mentioned your budget was €2k, so why not look at one of the suspension wheels? You have the v5f for your city riding and the suspension wheels really seem to thrive off-road and they are within your budget.

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I second that. The S18 for example isn't too big or too heavy, and looks like a very comfortable offroad and city rider.

Yeah, the more I read, the less I want a 16S. I saw now the KS-S18 and looks promising. The problem is that there's almost no user experience online but a few prototypes. Also the losing of maneuverability of a 18'' wheel. Coming from a 14'' wheel I'm going to suffer that a lot. By the way, I'm going to wait.

 

1 hour ago, Tazarinho said:

I have had a similar experience as @travsformation, but without the 18XL. 

While I had the V8 I was already drawn to serious offroading, but since I'm also a heavy guy (92 kg ungeared) it wasn't powerful enough for me and I was always too close to the limit. The KS 16X for me has proven the answer to most of my riding. It's a great off-roader, except maybe in mud (but still better than the V8). I regularly take the train with my it. as I either tend to ride somewhere to the extent of my range and then take the train back, or take the train somewhere and ride back, depending on whether my starting location is higher or lower than my home town, as I like to maximise range. I originally kept the V8 for small errands in town, but I find myself still favoring the 16X over it, so my girlfriend now rides the V8.

I find both comfortable to trolley around, but in narrow places, such as shop aisles, it can be less convenient. If you have a lot of stairs, the 16X can get tiring, even though I'm a fairly strong person (not all of my weight is of the useless kind). I've even had to carry the wheel up a metal ladder that was bolted into the rock on a hiking trail, and while I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, it's still possible.

Anyway, so I think a 16X could fit your needs, but then of course I am heavily biased as a happy 16X owner.

Another one signing for a 16X haha. Thanx

 

48 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Maybe to help you make a choice, for me there are three categories of wheels:

1. Small wheels that I personally don't take very seriously. Used for fun or when not just the riding itself counts (e.g. low weight or being carryable). Small batteries and low power, or some other restriction.
   For example: mten3, your V5F, V8, even the V8F with it's comparably small battery
2. Bigger wheels that aren't performance wheels yet because they lack the ultimate speed, power, and big battery size. But very nice secondary wheels or perfect city commuters for everyday practical, serious use. Usually a bit lighter, and nicer/sleeker looking.
   For example: the 16S (I'd no longer buy that), the V10 and V10F, the S18, maybe the V11.
3. Performance wheels that offer the state of the art in speed, battery size, power. Big and heavy and bulky and more utilitarian looking. Maybe too big and heavy and impractical if you don't purely ride them but also carry them, take them on a train, etc.
   For example: Nikola, 16X, MSP/MSX, 18XL, Sherman, etc. Maybe the V11 also because it's quite big and heavy.

You're coming from category 1 so everything is going to be a huge upgrade for you. You can think about if you want to go for a pure performance-over-everything-else wheel from category 3, or go for a maybe more practical (for you) wheel from category 2.

It's not so much about what is right or wrong for you, but what is most pleasant and convenient for you. And don't take the categories too strictly, the MSP for example is rather light and small in comparison, the V11 is (for me) somewhere between 2 and 3, and so on.

Good news is, you'll be happy with pretty much every wheel, they're all great and will be a huge upgrade for you. But maybe it helps if you think about what kind of wheel would be most pleasant for you to own. Pure performance when riding (cat 3) or a sleeker, lighter, sexier compromise (cat 2). Trust your instincts there.

This is great help. After all these posts I'm biased towards the 16X with a bit of hype on the ks-s18 (offroad is going to be really delightful with this). The thing that pushes me back is the 18x3 wheel, because of maneuverability, which I think is going to be better in a 16x3. My instincts tells me to go for a "cat 3" haha. Now I have to think about 16 or 18 with suspension, but I have time for that. Thank you!

 

40 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

You know, almost all of us have said the exact same thing at one point or another! The thing is, if you have only ridden a low powered 14” wheel, you can not even begin to imagine how much more stable an 18” wheel (for example) feels like, and how 25km/h on the V5F feels much less stable than 50km/h on an 18-incher. I wouldn’t have the guts to go 25km/h on a V5F, but I have no problem reaching 50km/h on the 84V MSX.

 Same goes for the battery. After 6 months on my first wheel I was ready to buy a wheel that can reach 30km/h and have 20km of range. I bought the 16S and thought that I’d never reach its top speed of 35km/h, or run out of battery... Now my regular ride tops out at 47km/h and empties the 1600Wh battery.

 In not saying that incremental purchases are bad. Just keep in mind that your current requirements are going to jump up quite soon after you familiarize yourself with a more capable wheel.

 Do all you can to meet other riders, and ask politely if your could try their wheels. It could be the best possible recipe for a successful purchase.

Yeah, at first I thought that 25kmh was a lot, and in only 2-3 weeks I feel slow. I'm not sure about the range, but maybe you are right. I'm leaning towards a 16X but now the ks-s18 with suspensions caught my eye, because of offroad reasons. The problem is that is "only" 1100wh instead of 1500wh. I don't like the Inmotion speed throttle, which starts really soon for my taste, so I'm not looking much for the V11. The riders meeting is not a bad idea. Going to look for something like this.

You all are of great help. Thank you!

[mike_bike_kite]

Personally, I'd go with the 16X. The only issue is the weight but all the wheels you'll be looking at are going to be fairly heavy. I'd avoid the S18 and V11 as they're both very new wheels and therefore unproven. There are 2 other issues with the 16X to be aware of - it is prone to cut outs for heavy riders riding at close to 30mph but you seem fairly light and not a speed freak. Waterproofing wasn't brilliant either but you live in Spain ...

[Llorx]

1 minute ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Personally, I'd go with the 16X. The only issue is the weight but all the wheels you'll be looking at are going to be fairly heavy. I'd avoid the S18 and V11 as they're both very new wheels and therefore unproven. There are 2 other issues with the 16X to be aware of - it is prone to cut outs for heavy riders riding at close to 30mph but you seem fairly light and not a speed freak. Waterproofing wasn't brilliant either but you live in Spain ...

Aaand another one for the 16X hahaha. Thank you, really.

Yeah, the "unproven" thing is what pushes me back. I have to wait for them to be released and also wait for enough reviews, so is going to be a couple of months, and I already feel limited with the v5f. Also adding the 18 vs 16 tire problem I mentioned earlier.

I think I'm going with the 16X which seems the wise decision for me, and wait one year or two before looking for those new suspension thingies, how they evolve and such. Buying the first-of-its-kind is not always a good decision.

Thank you all 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Jorge Fuentes González said:

I don't like the Inmotion speed throttle, which starts really soon for my taste, so I'm not looking much for the V11.

While the details on the V11 speed throttling are not known, what we do know is that you can ride 50km/h until 30% of battery left. KS has lately started throttling at 50%. Considering the capacity difference, you would ride the V11 at full speed more than twice as far as you would on the S18.

 But the 16X is a great ride, and the worst waterproofing issues should also be fixed by now.

[Llorx]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

While the details on the V11 speed throttling are not known, what we do know is that you can ride 50km/h until 30% of battery left. KS has lately started throttling at 50%. Considering the capacity difference, you would ride the V11 at full speed more than twice as far as you would on the S18.

 But the 16X is a great ride, and the worst waterproofing issues should also be fixed by now.

Oh, I only saw a few posts about speed throttle and some of them said that kingsong now throttles at 30% instead of 50%, and that inmotion throttles at about 70-80%, which is pretty high. Yes, I guess that I'm going to wait for a year or so before looking for suspension ones. Maybe inmotion fits me.

And well, I didn't know anything about 16X waterproofing problems. Damn. More things to read haha.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Jorge Fuentes González

[travsformation]

On 7/6/2020 at 11:43 AM, Llorx said:

Thank you hahaha. Yeah, first times I tried offroad was failing every time 'til I noticed that I have to flex my knees, so they act like a suspension system. By the way I fail from time to time. This weekend I went to another town with completely different roads (different humidity, only compacted dirt, almost no dust but way more gravel) and I had a hard fall again because of a medium rock, but I'm loving it each time haha. Can't wait to buy a better wheel for this 

Yeah, knee flex is key, for absorbing bumps and for turning and making all the small micro-adjustments required for off-roading. And falling off-road (and a lot) is inevitable...you're going over and in between rocks balancing on one wheel, after all. Just keep practicing, you're going to be amazed how much easier it is with a bigger/thicker tire 

On 7/6/2020 at 11:43 AM, Llorx said:

Maximum budget is about 2000€. Maybe I can push a bit more (or look for decent second hand deals) so I'll try my best to buy what I think I need without limiting myself. There will be a lot of stairs and such, yeah, but only once a week. By the way that day I would like to have a comfortable city commuting. In the city we are really limited so I need to get off and walk with the EUC a lot of times to reach streets that I'm allowed to ride. I'm not a "speed guy". I'm more a "skills guy" (I think that's why I'm loving offroad so much) so I prefer fast reactions more than top speed. Looking how I feel with a 25kmh top speed wheel, I think that a 35-40kmh top speed one will suit me.

For going up stairs, anything like the 16X, 18XL, MSX, etc., are a pain in the ass. I live on a fourth floor, and whenever the elevator breaks (which is at least once a month), carrying the 16X up/down 4 floors is a massive pain in the ass...so it's worth taking into account. But if you like off-roading, I think a 16x3" tire is the minimum to do so in comfort/without making things more difficult on yourself than they need to be. 

For commuting, it depends on what you do. If it's only walking on the sidewalk in areas where you aren't allowed to ride, you should have no problem with the 16X: Kingsong's trolleys are, in my opinion, the best on the market. If you're going to be doing a lot of trolleying, I don't think a Gotway will suit you too much (correct me if I'm wrong, GW owners, maybe you eventually get used to it; and the Nikola's trolley handle is in another league than the MS-line of wheels). BUT if you plan on going in and out of metro stations with lots of stairs often, the 16X might prove a bit heavy. It all depends on your particular use-case. Then again, with the range you get on the 16X, I don't think you'll need to take the metro at all. Why travel underground, in a cramped metal box full of people (especially in the era of COVID-19) when you can be floating above ground, enjoying every second of your commute? 

About speed, as @mrelwood said, it's relative to the wheel you're riding, your experience, road conditions, etc. Yesterday I got my 47 km/h speed warning and thought to myself "there's no way I'm going more than 40 km/h", but I was...it was on a straight, perfectly smooth, recently re-asphalted road, no cars or people...later on the same ride I checked my speed, thinking I was going at least 45 km/h, wondering why I wasn't getting my 44 km/h pre-alarm, and it turned out I was going 36 km/h: bumpier road, traffic, headwind...speed is very subjective and dependent on riding conditions, it can feel very different in different situations, even on the same wheel. 

Upgrading from a V5F, anything you get is going to be fast. Your idea of fast will gradually change over time, your old fast will become your new normal, and that new normal might end up feeling slow, it's just the way it goes 😅

Everyone is different, but now that I'm considering an MSP, I'm glad I transitioned from the V8 to wheels with a 50 km/h maximum speed, I probably would have hurt myself otherwise. 😅

On 7/6/2020 at 11:43 AM, Llorx said:

Thank you a lot for your personal experience. This is what I was actually looking for ^^. This weekend I've read a lot of things. And I was thinking about a 18'' wheel, but I'm not sure about the loss of maneuverability. I was then going for a 16S with a 2.5 tire mod I saw on the forums. Nice weight, 16'' wheel with a 2.5'' width, almost triple range than my current one which is really nice for my needings and with the 2.0 firmware update the whinning goes away. But I noticed 2 problems: the voltage (lower than the v5f), which seems that is important to have the "fast reactions" I want, and the Kingsong throttle when you reach certain battery level, which is a big tradeoff for me as now I'm noticing a throttle in the v5f and I'm hating it haha. Then I've read about Gotway and their throttle, so I thoght about the Tesla v2 with another 2.5'' tire mod (which is going to be a bit more difficult that the 16S mod, but something I can do without problems, I guess). I think that my travels are not going to be much longer than I do not with my v5f, so having triple battery is more than enough (but that's what I say now, as a noob).

Glad I could help! 

Again, range is a very personal thing, some people buy wheels with 1800Wh batteries and never do more than 30 km per ride. Maybe you won't need the 1554 Wh on the 16X (riding conservatively---you weight less than 10 kg more than I do---you'll easily get 90+ km of range with it). Or maybe you'll end up wanting more, you never know! When I bought the 18XL, I thought the range was complete overkill, I never saw myself doing more than maybe 60 km, but now I wouldn't settle for anything less. It's been a gradual process (also dependent on my legs and feet getting used to longer rides), but now I find myself doing 75+ km tours in an afternoon...if I ever manage to wake up early (I work at night...) and go for an entire-day trip, I'll be taking my fast charger with me to charge at lunch time. 😅

As I said, I never would have anticipated this when I bought the wheel, just like you probably didn't anticipate that you'd be upgrading your wheel so soon 

Some people prefer incremental upgrades (20 km range >> 40 km range >> more range). This is just a personal choice. As @FinRider and @meepmeepmayer suggested, the S18 might fit your needs too. I personally wouldn't buy it because of the range, I prefer getting a future-proof wheel that I know I'm not going to outgrow, in terms of speed or range, in a while (a year at least?) 

The other drawback I see with the S18, as a new rider coming from a 14" wheel, is that the pedal height on the S18 might make it a little more difficult to control and learn on. I think it was SpeedyFeet who mentioned that it can be a little trickier to control when riding on lateral inclines and is also more prone to wobbles when braking. These might not be issues for more experienced riders, but I don't personally think the S18 is too well suited for newer riders coming from a small 14" wheel. 

About tire diameter, it isn't necessarily as much of a deal-breaker as you might think. The 18XL is fine for city riding, just not as agile (or fun to ride) as the 16X. Many claim that the MSP is just as maneuverable as the 16X, but with the sketchy trolley handle and awkwardly-placed lift kill switch button, I'm not too sure it meets your needs, I think the 16X would be much better suited for your needs. But I admit I'm biased towards the 16X...if you don't plan on riding above 45 km/h, and are happy to cruise at 40 km/h, of all the wheels I've tried, it's the most fun, agile, nimble and versatile. But this is just one opinion among many...

On 7/6/2020 at 11:43 AM, Llorx said:

EDIT: I've just read that Kingsong has set the throttle to 30% instead of 50%, which is nice. I guess that the throttle is not that bad now.

The throttle has never been a problem for me. These are the kind of real-world throttling numbers I've been getting ont the 16X, on FW 2.02:

(The red bar with black striped indicated the maximum speed the wheel will allow you to ride until tiltback)

22% battery - Tiltback at 39 km/h

13% battery - Tiltback at 37 km/h

7% battery - Tiltback at 35 km/h

4% battery - tiltback at 34 km/h

But do take into account that these were done riding the wheel very gently, this value change with load and speed, so if you accelerate more aggressively, you'll get tiltback sooner than shown in these images. But still, the speed throttling on the 16X is excellent in my opinion. It's recommended not to discharge the wheel lower than 20%, and if you ever do, you should be riding gently to make sure you can get home without having to walk, and being able to ride above 30 km/h with less than 10% battery is very good, as far as I'm concerned 

About waterproofing, it might depend on the batch, the specific model you receive, how much the assembly line worker had to drink the night before and how many hours of sleep he got...😂

@Unventor and a few others have had some issues with their 16X in terms of waterproofing. I've ridden mine for about 15" in torrential rain (there was nowhere to stop and take cover), and an additional 25 km/h of moderate rain after that, and I've had no issues whatsoever.  Maybe the EUC bodyguard by roll.nz that I use helped (as well as spraying the power switch, charging ports and USB ports with dielectric spray), maybe I just got lucky, who knows... 

Choosing a new wheel is a difficult choice, but whatever you get, I'm sure you're going to be happy with it 

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, travsformation said:

About waterproofing, it might depend on the batch, the specific model you receive, how much the assembly line worker had to drink the night before and how many hours of sleep he got...😂

@Unventor and a few others have had some issues with their 16X in terms of waterproofing. I've ridden mine for about 15" in torrential rain (there was nowhere to stop and take cover), and an additional 25 km/h of moderate rain after that, and I've had no issues whatsoever. 

My issues are 1st match related. It is a confirmed that 1st batch units had assembled issues at the front making alignment of front top part harder leading to a gab where water could be forced into the powerbutton area. 

My 2nd issue is also batch related as new designed control board should fix this.

But if I were to order a new wheel today and looking at what we know between KS16X and V11. I wouldn't hesitate to grab the V11. These 2 wheels are covering more or less same target group. Overall I expect the V11 to be superior is almost any regard. 

Now @travsformation made a long post with many details. I expect his recommendation is very good. I didn't read it all (tired after 2 days of no sleep due to bad weather here).

I am planning to make my first 360 video tomorrow. We shall see how that goes...but this will be on the KS16X. As soon I get the V11 which I expect is a matter of1-3 weeks. I will make a series of V11 360 videos. 

I have a few ideas. Now one thing I don't plan to do is top speed videos. But before from that I expect to make a big series on all my wheels in my summer vacation. So stay tuned....I hope I can make some cool stuff like @travsformation and @stephen.

[Llorx]

  

5 hours ago, travsformation said:

For going up stairs, anything like the 16X, 18XL, MSX, etc., are a pain in the ass. I live on a fourth floor, and whenever the elevator breaks (which is at least once a month), carrying the 16X up/down 4 floors is a massive pain in the ass...so it's worth taking into account. But if you like off-roading, I think a 16x3" tire is the minimum to do so in comfort/without making things more difficult on yourself than they need to be. 

For commuting, it depends on what you do. If it's only walking on the sidewalk in areas where you aren't allowed to ride, you should have no problem with the 16X: Kingsong's trolleys are, in my opinion, the best on the market. If you're going to be doing a lot of trolleying, I don't think a Gotway will suit you too much (correct me if I'm wrong, GW owners, maybe you eventually get used to it; and the Nikola's trolley handle is in another league than the MS-line of wheels). BUT if you plan on going in and out of metro stations with lots of stairs often, the 16X might prove a bit heavy. It all depends on your particular use-case. Then again, with the range you get on the 16X, I don't think you'll need to take the metro at all. Why travel underground, in a cramped metal box full of people (especially in the era of COVID-19) when you can be floating above ground, enjoying every second of your commute? 

Yep, right now I'm gonna keep my v5f for those 5-10 km rides between trains. I guess that will do the job.

For the rest, you said exactly the same I think haha. 16X is not going to be my forever wheel, I'm sure. Maybe in 1 year I want to change the wheel for whatever reason, but I least I have a "big" one to really know what I need. Right now I'm on the low tier and I'm not sure if I really want way more range/speed or the weight is too much for me. I also think that 16X checks almost all the boxes I consider I need. The only drawback I saw was the 24kg weight, but having a v5f for commuting I'm going to use this wheel mainly for travelling from start to end, without stops (or resting stops only).

And yep, thank you for the throttling info. Is way better that I thought. Obviously if you are low on battery you have to ride slower and more gently, but not because of wheel limitations, just for safety. I'm scared of my first overlean, when it arrives xD

About waterproofing, I've found a post here with tips and tricks to waterproof your 16X properly, so I'm reassured on that point now.

 

6 hours ago, travsformation said:

Choosing a new wheel is a difficult choice, but whatever you get, I'm sure you're going to be happy with it 

Thank you! ^^

 

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

My issues are 1st match related. It is a confirmed that 1st batch units had assembled issues at the front making alignment of front top part harder leading to a gab where water could be forced into the powerbutton area. 

My 2nd issue is also batch related as new designed control board should fix this.

But if I were to order a new wheel today and looking at what we know between KS16X and V11. I wouldn't hesitate to grab the V11. These 2 wheels are covering more or less same target group. Overall I expect the V11 to be superior is almost any regard. 

Now @travsformation made a long post with many details. I expect his recommendation is very good. I didn't read it all (tired after 2 days of no sleep due to bad weather here).

I am planning to make my first 360 video tomorrow. We shall see how that goes...but this will be on the KS16X. As soon I get the V11 which I expect is a matter of1-3 weeks. I will make a series of V11 360 videos. 

I have a few ideas. Now one thing I don't plan to do is top speed videos. But before from that I expect to make a big series on all my wheels in my summer vacation. So stay tuned....I hope I can make some cool stuff like @travsformation and @stephen.

The problem is that V11 is a 18'' wheel instead of 16'', and I don't want to jump from a 14'' to a 18'' because I know I'm really going to hate the lose of maneuverability. By the way, the suspension got my eye, but I think I'm going to wait a year before thinking on buying one of those. Is my first upgrade and don't want to buy an expensive untested wheel to end hating it and come back to the v5f, which is really sad xD

I'll keep an eye on your series

[Llorx]

As an update. Just bought a shiny new KS-16X 

Thank you all for everything! You've been really helpful 

For future noob users, I'll update with my thoughts on this wheel.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Llorx

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, Llorx said:

For future noob users, I'll update with my thoughts on this wheel.

Congratulations! Quite a performance jump Looking forward to your impressions.

[travsformation]

5 hours ago, Llorx said:

As an update. Just bought a shiny new KS-16X 

Thank you all for everything! You've been really helpful 

For future noob users, I'll update with my thoughts on this wheel.

Congratulations! You've bought an excellent wheel that's going to bring you many kms and hours of joy! I don't think you'll regret it! And if you're not a fast rider, you won't be outgrowing it soon! 

Do expect there to be a learning curve, a lot of the things you take for granted and do intuitively on the V5F might change and feel more difficult, but it's fun to get to re-learn again! Enjoy as you learn to tame the beast! 

[Felix]

Congrats. I'm on V8F and also eyeing the 16X or Tesla V2 or S18. But I'm not doing offroading, for that i have my onewheel XR. somehow for offroading i prefer side stance, just personal choice. Let us know how it goes with your 16X

[Llorx]

Thank you all! ^^

7 hours ago, Felix said:

Congrats. I'm on V8F and also eyeing the 16X or Tesla V2 or S18. But I'm not doing offroading, for that i have my onewheel XR. somehow for offroading i prefer side stance, just personal choice. Let us know how it goes with your 16X

That's a wheel I was looking for actually, but because of travelling needs I'm starting with EUCs, but I'm pretty sure in the future I'm going to buy one of those, just to have fun