The KS16x has issues, but I just bought it. WHY?

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, erk1024 said:

I'm also a heavy 265lb rider, so I'm going to put more stress on the wheel than your average rider. 

It might be better down the road, but that is a big might... 

If I were your size I would not look at the KS16X. That is the sad point of being bigger and riding an EUC. 

I am 80-81kg and that works fine. But I think you will fine the most wheels will struggle unless it is perfect smooth roads. 

My tip would be a bigger rim as that should lower the strain if you hit a pothole. I know smaller rim gives more torque. But I think the bigger rim helps to climb up better or even over a pothole. 

Edited October 5, 2019 by Unventor
I might have typed a little too soon, and Marty are more expirearanced than me on trails. I can be wrong on my point. But nevertheless I stick to it for now.

[Marty Backe]

54 minutes ago, erk1024 said:

 

This is my dilemma. When I want to go for a ride, I always seem to choose the Monster V3 lately because it's crazy fun--so freaking fast and roadworthy.

So l decided to sell my 18XL and also there is a guy at work who want's to buy it--another EUC convert hopefully. That free's up some cash for another wheel, but the problem is: why would I ride the NEW wheel when I don't ride the 18XL? In other words, why spend money on a wheel just to ignore it and ride the Monster? The new wheel would have to open up a new set of riding possibilities, or be *different enough* that I would choose to ride it half the time.

So I'm thinking it would be fun (and a good workout) to do some offroad riding, and the Monster is not exactly a climbing wheel. So then I should get one of these wheels with a fat tire and gobs of torque, like the Nikola or 16X.

• Nikola: The shell is going to show a lot of scratches or could crack because of the plastic that was used if I dump it doing offroad.
• 16X: Seems like a better choice in terms of shell durability, and also there will soon be excellent Roll.nz covers for it.
• MSX: Nice big tire for soaking up bumps, but smaller pedals and less torque than the other two.

Great! I should get a 16X. But reading this thread is kind of a horror show. People are reporting cut-outs (maybe that guy just overleaned it), they have to send their wheels back because of problems, the firmware situation is "evolving" shall we say. I'm also a heavy 265lb rider, so I'm going to put more stress on the wheel than your average rider. 

... so what to do? ...

 

I know we've talked privately, but what you've written here has different criteria vs what you talked to me about.

I would lean towards the 16X. I have a feeling it's going to me my primary trail wheel. It's built tough and I think it'll survive trail riding better unscathed than the Nikola. And the 16X certainly has much better hill climbing torque than the MSX. And I'm getting the bodycover for it from @The Fat Unicyclist so that'll really help with trail riding crashes.

All the reported 16X problems, even if true, won't be an issue for off-road riding. By it's very nature, off-road riding is at speeds between 2-mph and 15-mph, and usually less than 15.

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, Unventor said:

It might be better down the road, but that is a big might... 

If I were your size I would not look at the KS16X. That is the sad point of being bigger and riding an EUC. 

I am 80-81kg and that works fine. But I think you will fine the most wheels will struggle unless it is perfect smooth roads. 

My tip would be a bigger rim as that should lower the strain if you hit a pothole. I know smaller rim gives more torque. But I think the bigger rim helps to climb up better or even over a pothole. 

C'mon @Unventor, I expected better from you 

You guys are missing the point - he's looking for an off-road wheel, not a street cruiser. He already has his Monster for that.

[Unventor]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

C'mon @Unventor, I expected better from you 

You guys are missing the point - he's looking for an off-road wheel, not a street cruiser. He already has his Monster for that.

Aye I admit I were fast to type. But that does not change my view on recommendations. 

Here in Europe the wheel (KS16X) is rated for 120kg loads.. It might more (maybe much more even), but with the state of optimizing the firmware KS16X is not there yet. In 6 months time maybe. 

I can be wrong in my way of thinking about this. But I rater state my mind that fanboy that KS16X will suit everyone. Because that I don't think it will do.

If you were in the 100kg range I would view this different but there is a fair weight gab here. 

That said of course a rider might know the limitations that one should not go past.

As for myself, I found 40kmh on roads is my top limit. It has to do with me not being young anymore, my sore knees and lag of strength, agility and reaction time. Going faster simply raise the risk so much more for me. 

[Unventor]

19 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

C'mon @Unventor, I expected better from you 

You guys are missing the point - he's looking for an off-road wheel, not a street cruiser. He already has his Monster for that.

I put a note in as I recognise your point. 

To those that have not tested a KS16X yet, here is the short version of why a heavy rider should not go on a KS16X. 

It reacts fast. Meaning if you ask for acceleration you get it. But that comes at a cost, and the heavier a rider I expect the more you stand at risk to feel that. If you lean out far, some refer to this as a GW lean you might find the KS16X will not keep up with you, and you get into an overlean situation. 

Since the KS16X reacts so fast or with so little input, it actually turns into a risk factor. That is what I think (I don't know for sure) made KS to make the fw 1.06 firmware changes. 

Right now I can't test how fw 1.07 works, as I shipped my wheel to be serviced. 

I can say that me riding in limited gear (85kg) vs full geag (90kg) vs full gear and shopping/backpack full (100kg), I can feel a behaviour change in the wheel. 

I hope this makes sense. Going at lower speeds might mitigate some of the risk... But very low speed catching balance in rough train, might create big spikes in amps needed. 

Like I said EUC can be ridden as a heavy rider, but the higher weight the higher the risk factor goes up too. For that same reason I am trying to loose weight myself (not succeeding yet, but I stopped gaining more weight at least). 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

I put a note in as I recognise your point. 

To those that have not tested a KS16X yet, here is the short version of why a heavy rider should not go on a KS16X. 

It reacts fast. Meaning if you ask for acceleration you get it. But that comes at a cost, and the heavier a rider I expect the more you stand at risk to feel that. If you lean out far, some refer to this as a GW lean you might find the KS16X will not keep up with you, and you get into an overlean situation. 

Since the KS16X reacts so fast or with so little input, it actually turns into a risk factor. That is what I think (I don't know for sure) made KS to make the fw 1.06 firmware changes. 

Right now I can't test how fw 1.07 works, as I shipped my wheel to be serviced. 

I can say that me riding in limited gear (85kg) vs full geag (90kg) vs full gear and shopping/backpack full (100kg), I can feel a behaviour change in the wheel. 

I hope this makes sense. Going at lower speeds might mitigate some of the risk... But very low speed catching balance in rough train, might create big spikes in amps needed. 

Like I said EUC can be ridden as a heavy rider, but the higher weight the higher the risk factor goes up too. For that same reason I am trying to loose weight myself (not succeeding yet, but I stopped gaining more weight at least). 

Good points - for the street riders.

What happened to your 16X  

[erk1024]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I know we've talked privately, but what you've written here has different criteria vs what you talked to me about.

Yep. I've been mulling things over. I think the Nikola+ is a fine wheel, but I don't need another wheel for the road, at the moment.

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Since the KS16X reacts so fast or with so little input, it actually turns into a risk factor.

Keep in mind I learned to ride on an 18XL which has a decent amount of torque. Going from an 18.5" wheel to a 17.75" wheel--not that big of a difference.

I think Unventor has this backwards. Counterintuitively, with the same motor, a smaller wheel can be safer because it has more torque to "get back under you", and this is true for heavier riders as well. The reason the 16X "reacts so fast" is because of all that torque. Maybe the issue with the 16X at going fast is that the control board limits the current at less amps than the Gotway wheels.

Edited October 6, 2019 by erk1024

[erk1024]

I also wonder with the 16X and with the MCM5, that the responsiveness of the wheel makes people more brave when riding it. They sense more power from the wheel and so they do more aggressive accelerations. The problem being is that they more easily hit the power limit of the wheel. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by erk1024

[RoadRunner]

I think you can ride these wheels very well at their limits if you know what you’re doing.

Just look at the latest videos from Chooch or Rober Ace, they didn’t faceplant...... yet 

 

[photorph]

5 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I trust the 16X at my 136 but I sure wouldn't trust it at almost twice that. You can scratch the 16X right off your list.
Nikola+ it is.
 

You're 136 pounds only??

Edited October 6, 2019 by photorph

[stephen]

I'm 200 1lbs without gear I'll have to get weighed when I've got my shoes, under garment protection, jeans, hoody shirt, jacket with all protection in it, helmet, a bag on my back with stuff in cameras etc,,  the 16x is still so torquey i love it, just don't lean that far into it and you'll be fine ( you don't have to lean it tbh),i think it's your best option for woods and hills and trails , my 16x handles better over pot holes than my msx only cause I'm always upright on the 16x and i don't have lean forward to accelerate , the msx i have to lean and when i do hit a pot hole it bumps me forward cause I'm pushing into the pedals and leaning,  it all depends how your going to ride it and with a 2200watt motor and all that torque you'll be fine.

I think all these comments about the 16x saftey is a bit over the top you make the wheel as safe as you want it to be, it becomes unsafe when you try to push the limits👍 I've done many tests on the 16x at my weight and its responded excellent so now i know I'm ok at my normal riding style 

Different wheels for different riding conditions 👍

Edited October 6, 2019 by stephen

[Unventor]

9 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Good points - for the street riders.

What happened to your 16X  

I can say for now, as I let my dealer and KS figure it out. Once I know more I might share info. In short it might just be my unit that faulty, so instead of causing a mass hysteria I am waiting for more details. 

[Unventor]

9 hours ago, erk1024 said:

I also wonder with the 16X and with the MCM5, that the responsiveness of the wheel makes people more brave when riding it. They sense more power from the wheel and so they do more aggressive accelerations. The problem being is that they more easily hit the power limit of the wheel. 

This was what I was trying to say. 

I found myself to rely more on that the KS16X can do what ever I ask of it as long I am under 30kmh limit. The heavier the rider the lower that limit goes. Those of you that seen me post about my KS16X should know I really love this wheel. So part of that love also comes with a side effect, do not recommend the wheel where it risk going wrong as it got enough people point fingers at it and KS trying to accommodate all. 

So 2 things I don't think the wheel will do great (but still can do) fast rides at top speed  with a heavy rider. It might not be why you buy the wheel at fist but one day you will get tempted....simply because it happens so fast compared to other wheel I have owned.

@erk1024 I would love to hear what you choose, and why, then the aftermath after a few hundred km. I can honestly say it took me 300ish km to really get reconnected or synced with the wheel. You can see that in my review thread of my unit (that is important to stress out, as I can't compare its behavior with other owners around me ) of KS16X.  

I have added a new post with a little more info ....to the review thread. 

Edited October 6, 2019 by Unventor

[stephen]

14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

If you lean out far, some refer to this as a GW lean you might find the KS16X will not keep up with you, and you get into an overlean situation. 

I can see this too if you lean to far and the wheel speeds up to 30mph (in seconds)and your body isn't back over the wheel then the 16x hasn't got anymore power to get it back to vertical , you really don't need to do a Jacko lean with this wheel and if you do,, make it a short one and then gradually come back to vertical , this is a fun wheel of you don't over do it

14 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Since the KS16X reacts so fast or with so little input, it actually turns into a risk factor. That is what I think

Its torque is it's downfall if your not careful of what you ask from it, otherwise its a beast at what it does😊 

Edited October 6, 2019 by stephen

[stephen]

39 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Once I know more I might share info. In short it might just be my unit that faulty, so instead of causing a mass hysteria I am waiting for more details.

I do want to know 😊 but i do understand that everyone will jump all over it lol that's what happens , i can see that all the post been made about the 16x from the first post about the tyre and the wobbles had not been an issue if you get it right, I'm still trying to find out any proper issue with the 16x apart from top speed falls which maybe or maybe not caused by user error so kingsong took into there own hands to keep it more safe so people won't over do it 🤔

Edited October 6, 2019 by stephen

[Unventor]

22 minutes ago, stephen said:

I can see this too if you lean to far and the wheel speeds up to 30mph (in seconds)and your body isn't back over the wheel then the 16x hasn't got anymore power to get it back to vertical , you really don't need to do a Jacko lean with this wheel and if you do,, make it a short one and then gradually come back to vertical , this is a fun wheel of you don't over do it

Its torque is it's downfall if your not careful of what you ask from it, otherwise its a beast at what it does😊 

I see you are understanding my point. I have seen how your smile became wider on your videos too, and how it at time can catch you by surprise at times.  

 

12 minutes ago, stephen said:

I do want to know 😊 but i do understand that everyone will jump all over it lol that's what happens , i can see that all the post been made about the 16x from the first post about the tyre and the wobbles had not been an issue if you get it right, I'm still trying to find out any proper issue with the 16x apart from top speed falls which maybe or maybe not caused by user error so kingsong took into there own hands to keep it more safe so people won't over do it 🤔

I have added a new post on the review....All I can say rain at 2-3mm pr hour and no ridding though water pools.

I have ridden in 3 times more heavy rain on other wheels without any issues.

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, photorph said:

You're 136 pounds only??

That he is...like a smurf just not blue....right @Mike Sacristan 

[photorph]

And @chrisjunlee just demonstrated speedometer inaccuracy, it’s a 28 mph top speed wheel vs 40+ on Nikola.

 

[stephen]

18 minutes ago, photorph said:

And @chrisjunlee just demonstrated speedometer inaccuracy, it’s a 28 mph top speed wheel vs 40+ on Nikola.

 

It would of been better to use kingsong app for speed comparison instead of wheellog ,, and then test that against gps speed so wheellogs not the middleman 

[photorph]

3 minutes ago, stephen said:

would of been better to use kingsong app for speed comparison instead of wheellog ,, and then test that against gps speed so wheellogs not the middleman 

Not relevant, Point is he gets beep at 28 mph so it’s a 28 mph wheel.  The gps is more accurate than the app.  

[stephen]

2 minutes ago, photorph said:

The gps is more accurate than the app.  

Yes but the beeps come at 28mph so if he'd of rode it till tiltback it would of been 30mph

[stephen]

4 minutes ago, photorph said:

Not relevant, Point is he gets beep at 28 mph so it’s a 28 mph wheel.  The gps is more accurate than the app.  

So if you say the gps is accurate what you comparing it to ...wheellog

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

21 minutes ago, stephen said:

It would of been better to use kingsong app for speed comparison instead of wheellog ,, and then test that against gps speed so wheellogs not the middleman 

My deviation between KS App and GPS is 1 - 3 km/h.

I just wanted to insert it here, but I don't give a shit if it's 45 or 47 or 48,953786457 or 50 km/h.
My BMW also shows 274 km/h, but according to GPS it's only 270 km/h. WTF? BMW is really a piece of shit and I wouldn't recommend it. Buy a Mercedes, it shows 271km/h instead of 274km/h.

Now calm down, it's getting really silly. ( @stephen I don't mean you)

Edited October 6, 2019 by buell47

[Marty Backe]

  13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

If you lean out far, some refer to this as a GW lean you might find the KS16X will not keep up with you, and you get into an overlean situation. 

I can see this too if you lean to far and the wheel speeds up to 30mph (in seconds)and your body isn't back over the wheel then the 16x hasn't got anymore power to get it back to vertical , you really don't need to do a Jacko lean with this wheel and if you do,, make it a short one and then gradually come back to vertical , this is a fun wheel of you don't over do it

  13 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Since the KS16X reacts so fast or with so little input, it actually turns into a risk factor. That is what I think

Its torque is it's downfall if your not careful of what you ask from it, otherwise its a beast at what it does😊 

 

@stephen, you quoted me incorrectly (or the Forum software did). I did not write these statements. @Unventor did.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

I can say for now, as I let my dealer and KS figure it out. Once I know more I might share info. In short it might just be my unit that faulty, so instead of causing a mass hysteria I am waiting for more details. 

You can't even tell us what the symptoms are? It doesn't turn on, the control board blew up, etc.???