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Kuji Rolls

Crazy off-roading with the MSX and 18XL

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6 hours ago, KujiRolls said:

Shamelessly promoting my latest video here even though i posted it in "Reviews" already. Thought you guys might enjoy it here too. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXrtH9lqomY&list=PLDOfnfEk0BeUs6uzkMvikDyhf0691SbR6&index=2

Awesome vid. Although the out take with the 18XL flopping around like a fish and hitting a tree made me cringe :cry2:. The thought of that happening to mine. 

Hey, dude. Thanks for showing me what my 18XL can do on the extreme side, so I can just brag about it and keep mine pretty..:D 

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Excellent video.  Mad skills on display.  But I was curious about the failed hill climb so I had a closer look.

If you slow the film to .25 and freeze it in the 1:08 second you see a few things. 

1. the rider's feet (Kuji?) are so far back, or so small, that the toes of his shoes don't even stick out beyond the front of the pedal. 

2.  The rider is trying (and failing) to provide so much power, that he literally rocks off the pedals to the point where only his toes make contact.

3.  There's quite a bit of bouncing, accompanied by rooster tails of dust.  Each spell airborne, reduces the forward momentum of the wheel but not the rider.I know personally that for each bounce in a situation like this, the rider gets further and further ahead of the wheel, until it time to dismount, or the top of the hill is reached, which ever comes first.

Now we all know that larger wheels need extra leverage to climb like a smaller wheel, due to the geometry of all the contributing parts.  Being able to transfer this energy is crucial.  But because ball of the rider's foot is a good 5cm behind the front edge of the pedal; all the force available is not being transmitted beneficially; namely on the front most part of the pedal.

However, it's the same rider in both cases(Kuji I assume) and he makes it to the top on the MSX, presumably using the same riding style and techniques.  So GotWay must be doing something different.  Maybe that fatter tyre combined with the ultra low pressures you guys are running, allowed it to grip more, each time it bounced, and maybe it bounced less.  Or maybe it is all about the algorithm, as Kuji says. I couldn't find the same exact side-on video for the MSX, like the view around 1:08.

BTW Kuji, what happened to the 18XL trolley handle?  It disappeared somewhere along the way.:wacko:

Edited by Smoother

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Can some other MSX and/or XL owners chime in on the mileage assessment? I am looking to buy a larger wheel and want to be able to ride as far as possible per charge. If the XL can double the distance per charge than what a MSX offers then that is a game changer for me.

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8 hours ago, RockyTop said:

The hill climb at 1:30 shows the difference in the software. The XL delays, dips and then refuses to deliver the request of power. The MSX does not care it just wants to keep it's pedals level.

Gotway firmware keeps winning:wub:

8 hours ago, RockyTop said:

The XL is still a better wheel for most people.

Depends on what people want to do. Offroad/hills this difference in behavior is a significant advantage for the MSX. Maybe it's even safety-relevant at the top end of the two wheels' power (pothole at 30mph e.g.).

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3 hours ago, Smoother said:

Excellent video.  Mad skills on display.  But I was curious about the failed hill climb so I had a closer look.

If you slow the film to .25 and freeze it in the 1:08 second you see a few things. 

1. the rider's feet (Kuji?) are so far back, or so small, that the toes of his shoes don't even stick out beyond the front of the pedal. 

2.  The rider is trying (and failing) to provide so much power, that he literally rocks off the pedals to the point where only his toes make contact.

3.  There's quite a bit of bouncing, accompanied by rooster tails of dust.  Each spell airborne, reduces the forward momentum of the wheel but not the rider.I know personally that for each bounce in a situation like this, the rider gets further and further ahead of the wheel, until it time to dismount, or the top of the hill is reached, which ever comes first.

Now we all know that larger wheels need extra leverage to climb like a smaller wheel, due to the geometry of all the contributing parts.  Being able to transfer this energy is crucial.  But because ball of the rider's foot is a good 5cm behind the front edge of the pedal; all the force available is not being transmitted beneficially; namely on the front most part of the pedal.

However, it's the same rider in both cases(Kuji I assume) and he makes it to the top on the MSX, presumably using the same riding style and techniques.  So GotWay must be doing something different.  Maybe that fatter tyre combined with the ultra low pressures you guys are running, allowed it to grip more, each time it bounced, and maybe it bounced less.  Or maybe it is all about the algorithm, as Kuji says. I couldn't find the same exact side-on video for the MSX, like the view around 1:08.

BTW Kuji, what happened to the 18XL trolley handle?  It disappeared somewhere along the way.:wacko:

haha you noticed the missing KS trolley handle... I didnt mention it because i didnt think it was a fair thing to say. After i took them on the 50m dash i was riding back home on the MSX and trolleying the 18XL by my side at speed. I smashed into a speed bump and lost control the 18XL with the handle extended. No surprise what happened next. 

I cant say that my foot position is always the same in all the runs, sometimes it gets dislodged by bumps and sometimes i may have not properly positioned my foot. The thing i can say is that i tried going up hills many times and the 18XL was never as easy as with the MSX. 

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20 minutes ago, KujiRolls said:

i was riding back home on the MSX and trolleying the 18XL by my side at speed.

The fact alone that someone can do this with two EUCs is just so great somehow.

Show me some other 30mph, 50 mile vehicle so that one person can move two at the same time, in style, with ultimate ease. Or even three of them with exactly the same ease!

:efeeec645d:

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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@KujiRolls I really, really liked the video. Please shamelessly promote as much as you want I'm sure all agree. Do you have any more info you could share with us regarding the mileage on both models?

I have 2 of the same electric longbord (Ownboard W1S)
One has a top speed of 40km/h and better range.
The other has a top speed of 34 km/h and more torque.
At any given speed I am running at that % of total power.
At 20km/h I am using 50% of one boards power and 60~ish% of the other.
This is all simply because of different ESC in the boards (actually just different firmware but non-flashable for consumers).

I can imagine it is similar between the 18XL and the MSX except that the MSX is "faster".
So at any given speed the MSX will always be drawing more power from the battery.
Every time you accelerate aggressively (which on the MSX probably means every single time) you will also draw a large amount of power. 

The programming seems to do more than we think.

 

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6 hours ago, Lutalo said:

Awesome vid. Although the out take with the 18XL flopping around like a fish and hitting a tree made me cringe :cry2:. The thought of that happening to mine. 

Hey, dude. Thanks for showing me what my 18XL can do on the extreme side, so I can just brag about it and keep mine pretty..:D 

Some time ago I've been riding with my KS-16 on hilly forest trails near my city. At some point, going downhill I hit the root protruding from the ground. I jumped off, but the wheel started to roll down, bouncing several times from the ground. At the very bottom it hit the trunk of a lonely tree with all its impetus. I thought to myself: "Well, pal, you'll walk the rest of the way with the wheel on your back..." But apart from breaking a few plastic elements, nothing serious happened :thumbup: I returned home on slightly tortured, but perfectly working wheel. It needed some gluing and today it doesn't look as beautiful as after the purchase, but all the time it works like new :D

King Songs are built like a tanks - definitely that's true.

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3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Gotway firmware keeps winning:wub:

Depends on what people want to do. Offroad/hills this difference in behavior is a significant advantage for the MSX. Maybe it's even safety-relevant at the top end of the two wheels' power (pothole at 30mph e.g.).

I think it's not about the firmware. It's about the tire. King Song doesn't lack power or acceleration, it clearly lacks traction. Tire is what makes the difference - that's all. 3" tire with less inflation pressure will always be superior to higher inflated 2.5" wide tire. Narrower tire will have tendency to slip and dig into the surface instead of rolling over it, in case of increased rolling resistance.

But I fully agree that MSX is a better offroad wheel than KS-18L/XL. As already mentioned, 3" wide tire is better suited for offroading. But another King Song limitation is very limited clearance between the tire and inner wheel cavity. This is why stones or even small twigs can easily get trapped inside the wheel cavity. There is also a risk that it may even cause momentary overload leading to cut out.

But KS-18L/XL is a wonderful wheel for riding over paved mountain paths and I don't think that MSX will be superior in this area. I've ridden many mountain paths last summer, including ones with incline about 30 degrees. No overload, no overtemperature.

And another, important thing - wheel-specific technique. I'm pretty sure that someone really experienced to ride on KS will be able to ride up the hill that Kuji couldn't. If you know your wheel, if you feel it, you will be able to use it's capabilities at most. At the same time that person would fail to ride up the same hill on MSX.

Edited by Seba
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56 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

@KujiRolls I really, really liked the video. Please shamelessly promote as much as you want I'm sure all agree. Do you have any more info you could share with us regarding the mileage on both models?

I have 2 of the same electric longbord (Ownboard W1S)
One has a top speed of 40km/h and better range.
The other has a top speed of 34 km/h and more torque.
At any given speed I am running at that % of total power.
At 20km/h I am using 50% of one boards power and 60~ish% of the other.
This is all simply because of different ESC in the boards (actually just different firmware but non-flashable for consumers).

I can imagine it is similar between the 18XL and the MSX except that the MSX is "faster".
So at any given speed the MSX will always be drawing more power from the battery.
Every time you accelerate aggressively (which on the MSX probably means every single time) you will also draw a large amount of power. 

The programming seems to do more than we think.

 

yeah, you should check out part 1, i have a section called "range", but ill say it here too. The ranges i got for riding around the city with 46-50kph cruising speed (and relatively hard acceleration/braking): MSX: ~60km. KS: ~100km

I think there are several factors at play, but i think its mainly due to the low tire pressures i like. 

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10 minutes ago, KujiRolls said:

yeah, you should check out part 1, i have a section called "range", but ill say it here too. The ranges i got for riding around the city with 46-50kph cruising speed (and relatively hard acceleration/braking): MSX: ~60km. KS: ~100km

I think there are several factors at play, but i think its mainly due to the low tire pressures i like. 

I rewatched all your vids last night because they are so awesome. :clap3: And also showed my wife. You have a new fan. :) 

That range difference is still quite a chunk though! Your speeds are crazy by the way. But so are you.

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1 minute ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I rewatched all your vids last night because they are so awesome. :clap3: And also showed my wife. You have a new fan. :) 

That range difference is still quite a chunk though! Your speeds are crazy by the way. But so are you.

awesome! my wife helps is my biggest critic because she doesnt give a shit about unicycles. So i strive for videos that are interesting enough that even she can tolerate it.... im not quite there yet. 

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43 minutes ago, Seba said:

I think it's not about the firmware. It's about the tire. King Song doesn't lack power or acceleration, it clearly lacks traction. Tire is what makes the difference - that's all.

I'm not sure. I suspected the tire at first, too, but if you look at the video, the loss of traction happens after the interesting part. Every single time (you see it best in the side views). The 18XL rides more bumpy (presumably due to the higher tire pressure), and maybe that little bit was enough to lose enough traction?

To me, it seems:

The 18XL starts dipping forward, then the rider has to bail, and then (after the fact) the reduced weight on the wheel reduces the friction greatly and only then the tire starts slipping. There is even a scene where Kuji falls forward but the tire does not really slip (the second in the video). It doesn't seem to me the initial 18XL pedal dip, which causes the difference, is due to loss of traction. The wheel just doesn't seem to give more power.

Meanwhile, the MSX simply keeps its pedals level rock-solidly (at all costs, so to speak), and that's it.

While the MSX board is capital-A awesome, I don't believe the 18XL hardware is notably worse - board, motor, anything (though I'd like to know which mosfets/package they use). Certainly not so much weaker to explain this.

So the only explanation to me is firmware. I very much suspect that KS try to prevent sudden spikes and high stresses overall, to improve battery efficiency, maybe protect the hardware, and simply get a more "advanced" and smooth motor control curve.

And that's why the 18XL slowly "shuts down" on that hill while the MSX just keeps going. Kuji says the 18XL feels less responsive, which I interpret as the wheel just refusing to give more/limiting its output. Just like the Ninebot One Z's braking behavior. I'm pretty sure with the GW firmware, the 18XL would behave the same as the MSX. Again, I don't think its hardware is any worse in non-technical terms.

So much for my guess.

Hopefully Gotway don't lose their firmware mojo with the Nikola and its new motor control algorithm (they say it's more efficient, and I interpret that as them doing what KS has been doing all along).

@Mike Sacristan Marty got a 10% difference between his msupers and the 18XL. That might be a more realistic average difference. Though some people reported surprising ranges from the 18L as well, so there really may be a bigger difference for some riders. Maybe lighter ones? Maybe a certain riding style? I wish we knew for sure (and why!).

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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Road resistance is of course a thing and I imagine it could account for 10-20%.

I have seen Marty's clips and the discussions around it and I agree that it is a more realistic difference. I am also aware of his lower riding speeds and relaxed riding style which will keep the firmware differences more in check. 

I am not saying Gotway has better firmware though. This is a preference thing and definitely not my preference. I would prefer range. We'll see how I feel about that though when I do my off-roading and hill climbing come spring. Then I will probably be grateful for the hill climbing ability. Otherwise I will be "forced" to buy yet another wheel. On nooooooo!

Temperature might also affect the battery differently as well. From reading around the forum I have read of a Swedish KS18XL rider getting better range than I do on my MSX despite him weighing 100kg and me weighing 70kg. This was both of us riding at around -2C.

We can see current and power in real time though on our apps right?
Perhaps it's time for us to get scientific.

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15 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

though I'd like to know which mosfets/package they use

The same, TO-247. But again, package itself doesn't prove reliability :) One badly soldered leg will cause to fail the "perfect TO-247" MOSFET.

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1 minute ago, Seba said:

The same, TO-247. But again, package itself doesn't prove reliability :) One badly soldered leg will cause to fail the "perfect TO-247" MOSFET.

Really, same size as MSX? Smaller mosfets would have explained why they might try to reduce peaks/high stresses. Must be unrelated to that. Efficiency I guess?

4 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Perhaps it's time for us to get scientific.

Yep, we would need someone with a lot of money to put all wheels through a standardized torture test. Hills, overheating, water intrusion, etc.

It's still hard to do. How would one emulate different rider weights and real world riding behavior? Tricky...

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7 hours ago, gon2fast said:

Can some other MSX and/or XL owners chime in on the mileage assessment? I am looking to buy a larger wheel and want to be able to ride as far as possible per charge. If the XL can double the distance per charge than what a MSX offers then that is a game changer for me.

I did a fair amount of long range tests between the XL and MSX and MSuper. This is hard (impossible) to quantify precisely because of the nature of trying to duplicate riding conditions, but I believe the XL can provide ~10-percent more range. I consider the difference to be marginal enough that I would buy either the MSX or XL based the features that I wanted. Either wheel will allow you to ride to exhaustion.

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4 hours ago, Gaz Bon said:

I loved this video just as i did the 1st in the series

Short and sweet 

KS fans can pick it to pieces Gotway will just enjoy for what it is, an opinion

I think if you wanna question feet placement do a re-enactment and show Kuji just what he is doing wrong ;)

But truth is just good dude with good skills doing his best for a good entertaining review  

Marty does his thing and so does Duff but to be honest to many videos and no real hard core content and far to long.

Kuji 10 min video and i will watch 3-4 times at least and be hanging for the next installment ,subscribed yes

Kuji keep up the good work im a fan 

Meep quoted you and cant get rid of the comment box  beg forgiveness

Have a stella weekend all :)

 

Gaz 

:crying:

;)

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9 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Depends on what people want to do. Offroad/hills this difference in behavior is a significant advantage for the MSX. Maybe it's even safety-relevant at the top end of the two wheels' power (pothole at 30mph e.g.).

No. It Depends on what most people actually do. So, I agree with @RockyTop statement. The 18XL is better in most situations in which most people find themselves most often. 

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I don't think the XL dips forward due to firmware. I think that every time the wheel gets air going up that hill, it cannot produce the thrust required to stay under the rider, because it has nothing to push on.  Every time he gets airborne the further forward his body moves relative to the wheel.  Also, because Kuji is pressing his weight down on the front of the pedal ( as he has to), this exacerbates the problem.  I think with less air time comes more grip and more chance to stay under Kuji. The GotWay was at 11psi and the KS at 16 psi. I wonder if lowering the ks or raising the GW to the same level might even things out a bit.

Unfortunately, @Gaz Bon although I have huge pedals on my KS16s I also have a semi slick tyre on it.  The grip on dirt slopes is wanting, to say the least, so I couldn't show Kuji anything except how to eat dirt :crying:. If it wasn't such a pain, I'd put a standard grip tyre back on for the winter (I have a spare one).

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On 1/27/2019 at 3:54 AM, Gaz Bon said:

I loved this video just as i did the 1st in the series

Short and sweet 

KS fans can pick it to pieces Gotway will just enjoy for what it is, an opinion

I think if you wanna question feet placement do a re-enactment and show Kuji just what he is doing wrong ;)

But truth is just good dude with good skills doing his best for a good entertaining review  

Marty does his thing and so does Duff but to be honest to many videos and no real hard core content and far to long.

Kuji 10 min video and i will watch 3-4 times at least and be hanging for the next installment ,subscribed yes

Kuji keep up the good work im a fan 

Meep quoted you and cant get rid of the comment box  beg forgiveness

Have a stella weekend all :)

 

Gaz 

Different strokes for different folks, that's what makes the world go round, or something like that.  I like Kuji's stuff as well.

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