!!! Firmware or hardware problems with KS18L, wheels locking up while trolleying

[phatmike]

On 7/10/2018 at 5:32 PM, phatmike said:

It looks more like a first batch/second batch issue. At this point I think is more a hardware problem and not a firmware one. 

I knew it!

[Seba]

1 hour ago, Nils said:

I don't suppose there any chance you can convince KS to make a wheel without the characteristic high pitched whining found in the current models?   That would be awesome!

This high-pitched sound is linked to pulsed magnetic field created by motor windings. They cause small vibrations that are heard as a sound (due to Maxwell forces, Lorentz forces and magnetostriction). It's common with PWM control - many electric motors with PWM inverters also make that sound. This whining may be limited by using sinusoidal current instead of pulsed, but this will require significant changes to control boards and such EUC will cost more.

From my point of view this sound is good, because it causes attention to nearby pedestrians

[Seba]

43 minutes ago, nte said:

Can this problem be tested by first using the aging test to heat up the control board and then trolleying the wheel in an air conditioned environment?

There is quite easy & effective method for detecting cold joints, and this method can be used by anyone. You just need to buy special freezer spray - for example https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/freezer-sprays/0846682/ - it can rapidly lower temperature of electronic parts on controller PCB board. Just remove cover, power up the wheel and apply spray on different parts of PCB. There are lot of examples of use on YT, here is one of them:

 

[US69]

58 minutes ago, nte said:

Can this problem be tested by first using the aging test to heat up the control board and then trolleying the wheel in an air conditioned environment? 

As far as i know, no...

42 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

Is the welding done by machine or by hand. If done by hand, sounds like an employee doing a poor job; a person that needs to be retrained or replaced.

If done by machine, then it's a repair or replace.

Either way, because this is a hardware issue, it seems now the challenge is finding a way to test or replace all the boards that they have disbursed to customers across the globe. 

 

Guys, please give them a bit more time......

As said, they are still Looking into it, checking other boards they are about to receive.

 

We try to be open about the problem and keep you informed and updated….but i cant install a Holding line to the chinese speaking engeneer, Sorry! 

Edited August 9, 2018 by US69

[Nils]

26 minutes ago, Seba said:

This high-pitched sound is linked to pulsed magnetic field created by motor windings. They cause small vibrations that are heard as a sound (due to Maxwell forces, Lorentz forces and magnetostriction). It's common with PWM control - many electric motors with PWM inverters also make that sound. This whining may be limited by using sinusoidal current instead of pulsed, but this will require significant changes to control boards and such EUC will cost more.

From my point of view this sound is good, because it causes attention to nearby pedestrians

Well, I'm not a hundred percent sure we're talking about the same sound. All wheels make some kind of sound, but this particular sound is specific to KS from what I know. It's high pitched enough that it seems there are lot of people that can't even hear it, making the auditory warning argument moot. It's likely to cause attention from any nearby dogs though, but not necessarily in a good way.. To me it's as welcome as tinnitus and not dissimilar in its nature.. Having some kind of sound alerting nearby people sounds like it can be a good idea, but in that case it's seems a better idea to do as someone suggested elsewhere and perhaps play some low key music (or buy a the finger bell like I have). Regardless, other manufacturers seems to be able make wheels without this particular sound so I'll be buying those for now, but to each their own!

Edited August 9, 2018 by Nils

[Stan Onymous]

3 minutes ago, Nils said:

Regardless, other manufacturers seems to be able make wheels without this particular sound so I'll be buying those for now, but to each their own!

The only Wheel that even comes close to silence is the InMotion, and that is because its sound is about 20 khz above where we can hear. It still makes a sound, just not one many of us can hear.

the z10 , noise, every gotway I have ever been next to, noise. IPS, noise,  The Prius, any hybrid car, All electric motors make a sound and a high pitched whine. Its just the nature of the beast. Its still way better than any leaf blower and weed whacker running on gasoline.

If all you can complain about is sound, then your complaint will probably require a complaint as well.

[US69]

11 minutes ago, Nils said:

Well, I'm not a hundred percent sure we're talking about the same sound. All wheels make some kind of sound, but this particular sound is specific to KS from what I know. It's high pitched enough that it seems there are lot of people that can't even hear it, making the auditory warning argument moot. It's likely to cause attention from any nearby dogs though, but not necessarily in a good way.. To me it's as welcome as tinnitus and not dissimilar in its nature.. Having some kind of sound alerting nearby people sounds like it can be a good idea, but in that case it's seems a better idea to do as someone suggested elsewhere and perhaps play some low key music (or buy a the finger bell like I have). Regardless, other manufacturers seems to be able make wheels without this particular sound so I'll be buying those for now, but to each their own!

Well, than i might ask for which Special Wheel from KS you are directing, too!

The 18L and/or the 18S (on newest Firmware) are now relatively quiet….

[Nils]

3 minutes ago, Stan Onymous said:

The only Wheel that even comes close to silence is the InMotion, and that is because its sound is about 20 khz above where we can hear. It still makes a sound, just not one many of us can hear.

the z10 , noise, every gotway I have ever been next to, noise. IPS, noise,  The Prius, any hybrid car, All electric motors make a sound and a high pitched whine. Its just the nature of the beast. Its still way better than any leaf blower and weed whacker running on gasoline.

If all you can complain about is sound, then your complaint will probably require a complaint as well.

Yes, every wheel makes noise - I said as much in the post you quoted. I'm not sure what the argument is here: that since all wheels make noise this particular noise at this particular frequency from KS is A-ok? If the sound generated from Inmotion wheels is at a higher frequency so that it's not a bother, then that's an much appreciated improvement for me (and I happen to very much appreciate this in my V10F). It's something I'm willing to pay for.

Are you suggesting the MSX and Tesla for instance produce the same sound as the KS wheels? I haven't had the chance to listen to those myself yet so I'm genuinely curious. They're supposed to be pretty quiet from what I understand, I'm looking forward to listen to them in person.

[Nils]

9 minutes ago, US69 said:

Well, than i might ask for which Special Wheel from KS you are directing, too!

The 18L and/or the 18S (on newest Firmware) are now relatively quiet….

It's been an annoyance for me with my old KS-16 from the start. I've been curious about this aspect regarding the K18L, and have read comments online commenting on the whine for that model as well. Yesterday  I watched the battery troubleshooting video from @Duf and could hear the telltale sound myself. Are you suggesting that it's gone with K18L?

[US69]

1 minute ago, Nils said:

It's been an annoyance for me with my old KS-16 from the start. I've been curious about this aspect regarding the K18L, and have read comments online commenting on the whine for that model as well. Yesterday  I watched the battery troubleshooting video from @Duf and could hear the telltale sound myself. Are you suggesting that it's gone with K18L?

Nope, not completly, but it has been A LOT less whine/high frequency sound in my opinion! Not comparable to KS16....

But to be fair: Tesla, MSX are nearly totally quiet!

If that is a crucial factor for you, than this will be the wheels for you! 

For me it is not important...i got used to the Sound, so that i nearly dont recognize it anymore….

[winter]

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by nte

[Nils]

12 minutes ago, US69 said:

Nope, not completly, but it has been A LOT less whine/high frequency sound in my opinion! Not comparable to KS16....

But to be fair: Tesla, MSX are nearly totally quiet!

If that is a crucial factor for you, than this will be the wheels for you! 

For me it is not important...i got used to the Sound, so that i nearly dont recognize it anymore….

All right, thanks for the info! Like I said, to each their own. I like KS though, so for me personally I'd be very happy if this improved in the future. I've bought my wheel for the year, but I'll keep an eye open when newer models come out  

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, phatmike said:

I knew it!

Really?

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, US69 said:

Guys, please give them a bit more time......

As said, they are still Looking into it, checking other boards they are about to receive.

 

We try to be open about the problem and keep you informed and updated….but i cant install a Holding line to the chinese speaking engeneer, Sorry! 

Indeed you cannot. KS absolutely deserves more time before we the buyers go into panic mode. I know that you understand why we (buyers) are concerned; as you are also a buyer. I am sure there will be a timely and accurate fix.

[US69]

27 minutes ago, nte said:

Ok, I ask because bad soldering with the ADA01 chip caused some early 18L control boards to fail. IIRC KS didn't discover this until after they completed the first eWheels batch. If I understand correctly, the aging test is supposed to test for bad solder connections.

Didn't you have a board that was "locked", too? As you also seamed to be experienced with the "engeneer app" and some of it's testmethods :-)

Perhaps you just do/try the aging test in the way you suggested….

I will ask KS About it especially 

 

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, Nils said:

Well, I'm not a hundred percent sure we're talking about the same sound. All wheels make some kind of sound, but this particular sound is specific to KS from what I know. It's high pitched enough that it seems there are lot of people that can't even hear it, making the auditory warning argument moot. It's likely to cause attention from any nearby dogs though, but not necessarily in a good way.. To me it's as welcome as tinnitus and not dissimilar in its nature.. Having some kind of sound alerting nearby people sounds like it can be a good idea, but in that case it's seems a better idea to do as someone suggested elsewhere and perhaps play some low key music (or buy a the finger bell like I have). Regardless, other manufacturers seems to be able make wheels without this particular sound so I'll be buying those for now, but to each their own!

I have been riding mine for about a week. I have heard no sounds that could be considered unusual for electric motors in general; especially, unusual enough to be a deal breaker on a purchase.

Have you recently piloted an 18L? If the natural sound of an electric hub motor working is your central criteria for buying you will be missing out on what is hands down, the finest wheel available at the moment.

Complaining about the sound of a KS 18L is like me proclaiming after getting busy with Beyonce that I would never sleep with her again because I think she was too loud during lovemaking ??

[hal2000]

Soooo....

The KS advertising slogan should be "different day - another lock" 

2 weeks ago I had my board replaced as the aftermath to Lockgate.

I left the sensor on and it worked well.

Today I rode it to work as usual and when wanted to return home the wheel refused to start.

What happened resembles the case I quote below with the exception that my wheel was/is unrideable.

 

This is becoming REALLY annoying.

I was wondering what "L" in KS18L stands for... I think we all know by now.

[Lutalo]

16 minutes ago, hal2000 said:

Soooo....

The KS advertising slogan should be "different day - another lock" 

2 weeks ago I had my board replaced as the aftermath to Lockgate.

I left the sensor on and it worked well.

Today I rode it to work as usual and when wanted to return home the wheel refused to start.

What happened resembles the case I quote below with the exception that my wheel was/is unrideable.

 

This is becoming REALLY annoying.

I was wondering what "L" in KS18L stands for... I think we all know by now.

I can imagine that you are very annoyed, but I think that they may have finally gotten to the bottom of this problem.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Lutalo

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Seba said:

There is quite easy & effective method for detecting cold joints, and this method can be used by anyone. You just need to buy special freezer spray - for example https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/freezer-sprays/0846682/ - it can rapidly lower temperature of electronic parts on controller PCB board. Just remove cover, power up the wheel and apply spray on different parts of PCB. There are lot of examples of use on YT, here is one of them:

 

I really do NOT think this is the way to go about this as a end-user. If you have concerns you should contact your dealer. They will then advice you the best cause of action. It might be shipping the wheel back to dealer for inspection.

Changing s board should not be that big of a problem. But stress testing on component level imho is not an end-user task, period.

And please give Kingsong more time to investigate the issue. I am sure @US69 will keep us in the look. But the more people jump up and down on this the more Kingsong have to keep things quiet until they have a permanent fix and cause for the issue.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Unventor

[Nils]

28 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

I have been riding mine for about a week. I have heard no sounds that could be considered unusual for electric motors in general; especially, unusual enough to be a deal breaker on a purchase.

Have you recently piloted an 18L? If the natural sound of an electric hub motor working is your central criteria for buying you will be missing out on what is hands down, the finest wheel available at the moment.

Complaining about the sound of a KS 18L is like me proclaiming after getting busy with Beyonce that I would never sleep with her again because I think she was too loud during lovemaking ??

The KS18L sounds like a fantastic wheel by all accounts, and I would love to ride one I'm not talking about electrical motor sounds in general but a specific whining at a specific frequency that irks me personally (which from what I understand is much less with the K18L than with my old KS16).  But I think this is a case of one either being bothered by it or not, and I'm just personally wary about it coming from the KS16. It may be that I won't find it bothersome when I actually ride an 18L! Anyway, most people don't seem to recognize this as troublesome at all, and I don't want to derail this thread further so let's just say that we're all different when it comes to sensitivity to sounds

[Unventor]

Now I just got home from a ride to Ikea. 10km there and then back again. Smooth cruising at 35ish kmh top speed set. 

Now trolleying along in Ikea must be the ultimate read life test. All worked fine. No issue what so ever with firmware 1.10 installed.

Now I am posting this as we only read about unhappy people. This is not the case about my wheel. I barely hear any noise, correction I do not hear any noise, it do send out sound from the wheel but as I said before on other posts I do not consider this noise. I find it quite pleasing and calming. Maybe because I am used to my car have engine sounds and road sounds too ( notice I do not use the term noise here either).

To people that want a totally quiet wheel, I suggest buy some running shoes? better for you health and no noise what so ever once you level up in ninja skills. 

[ricqvo]

Ok, I updated to V1.10 and the lift sensor after calibrating works 100% ! Awesome! Great job KingSong... Most of issues solved in 2 or 3 weeks... Well done.

[TomOnWheels]

16 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Now I just got home from a ride to Ikea. 10km there and then back again. Smooth cruising at 35ish kmh top speed set. 

Now trolleying along in Ikea must be the ultimate read life test. All worked fine. No issue what so ever with firmware 1.10 installed.

Now I am posting this as we only read about unhappy people. This is not the case about my wheel. I barely hear any noise, correction I do not hear any noise, it do send out sound from the wheel but as I said before on other posts I do not consider this noise. I find it quite pleasing and calming. Maybe because I am used to my car have engine sounds and road sounds too ( notice I do not use the term noise here either).

To people that want a totally quiet wheel, I suggest buy some running shoes? better for you health and no noise what so ever once you level up in ninja skills. 

Same here... Very happy with my KS18L... I got board lock, changed it. Also repaired trolley, and adjusted sensors... All works perfectly now, no issues at all... And you know what all that extra work, that I agree the customer should not be in charge of, I'm fine with it as an early owner... It's the same with cars... there is always things that need to be fixed on early versions. Noise level is absolutely not an issue, and helps me to know if all is fine...

[Seba]

35 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Now I am posting this as we only read about unhappy people. This is not the case about my wheel.

I'm also a happy owner of KS18L. I've already clocked over 500 km without any issue.

[Circuitmage]

Yes, good information, however people are not reporting lock ups in cold weather, so I am still suspicious about this being the root cause. I have not had a lock up fresh in the morning in cooler temperatures.

But...we shall see....1 week now since my FW newer 1.07 upgrade.