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Henrik Olsen

KS18L Range Test - 200 lbs rider

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1 hour ago, Seba said:

Today I've done a range test on my new KS-18L. Ambient temperature was about 25 °C (77 °F), 80kg of rider weight + 10 kg in backpack (about 200 lbs in total). Light wind, mostly flat terrain. Tire pressure about 300 kPa (43 psi). Fully charged battery, wheel with 1.0.7 firmware and set to medium riding mode. I was able to make a 60 km (37 mi) trip with average speed of 20 km/h (12 mph) until wheel started to show charge levels below 10%. Wheel was still able to ride gently with small speeds, but it was clear to me that my ride was finished :) Tiltbacks and "Please decelerate" messages was frequent enough to prevent me from further ride.

From my point of view this is exactly what I expected, so I'm happy with that :) I was getting 40 km (24 mi) in similar conditions (but with smaller average speed) from my KS-16C with 680 Wh battery. So I think by riding with lower speed I can get considerably better range from my KS-18L.

IMPORTANT NOTE - this was "real" 60 km, measured with GPS. It's important, because mileage reported by the wheel application is considerably inflated, even 20-25% up. This does not apply to speed, which seems to be measured correctly.

You’re matching my KS18-L stats, all this guys claiming performance far away from mine were making me worried. I’m 95kg full geared and matching all your stats other parameters, with over 300km done my avg consumption is 16,5Wh/km gps (gps km/app km is 0.8 about). So when I stop with a 10% batteries (as soon as you move batteries loose 5-6%) left my range is 55-58km.

Thank you because now I know my wheel is ok and it is good because I like it for its agility and stability.

The 100km is just unfair marketing spot, maybe average Chinese 65kg with Km app ?

Edited by EricGhost

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9 minutes ago, EricGhost said:

You’re matching my KS18-L stats, all this guys claiming performance far away from mine were making me worried. I’m 95kg full geared and matching all your statsother parameters, over 300km my avg consumption is 16,5Wh/km gps (gps km/app km is 0.8 about). So when I stop with a 10% batteries (as soon as you move batteries loose 5-6%) left my range is 55-58km, luckily my wheel is ok and it is good because I like it for its agility and stability. The 100km is just unfair spot, maybe average Chinese 65kg with Knapp ?

I also think that 100 km is an exaggerated range, because I don't believe it's achievable by anyone in real conditions on KS-18L. But if we imagine a light, delicate girl that like to ride slowly (on wheel, of course :D ) so I'm pretty sure that she could make a quite long ride - even more than 70-80 kilometers. I got 60 km and I think if I reduce mass of my gear in backpack (at this particular ride I was returning from my work, carrying my big&heavy Dell M4800) and reduce speed to about 15 km/h, I will get another 5-10km more.

PS. I get 20Wh/km brt. Brutto, because this has been measured at charger input - I need 20Wh drawn from wall outlet to drive 1 km.

Edited by Seba

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Aerodynamics and gravity are the worst for drag on the vehicle efficiency. I am thinking that you dont ride with your arms out infront of you to form a wind foil or wedge for the wind to bend around you. I bet you are slamming your entire flat framed front into the future similar to a wall buffeted by the wind. Lol

Perhaps there is some mitigation you could attempt to lessen your wind resistance. Gravity works in your favor in momentum and downhill brake regeneration, so the only real difference is how the two of us cut through the wind. Watch cyclists. Does your riding stance look anything like that? How does the wind move around you? A wall creates a big drag zone on the opposite side from the wall as well as the resistance from the wind.

More curious than critical.

Edited by Stan Onymous

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I'm getting 50-70 km (75 kg rider) depending on style. Charge percent indication is inaccurate, showing slow discharge for first 30% and much faster when charge is <70%.

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3 hours ago, EZhel said:

Charge percent indication is inaccurate, showing slow discharge for first 30% and much faster when charge is <70%.

It might be that the indication is actually too accurate, as that is a normal operation curve for most if not all batteries. Some wheels compensate for that when converting the available voltage to percentage, but it might still not act linearly. In the end you just have to learn how the percentages behave for any specific wheel.

Edit: I think the compensation curve has even been updated a few times in 16S fw updates. So the behavior might well change in the future.

Edited by mrelwood

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4 hours ago, EZhel said:

Charge percent indication is inaccurate, showing slow discharge for first 30% and much faster when charge is <70%.

It's normal that battery discharge rate is faster when battery is low on charge. It is because battery voltage is going lower as the battery discharge, however power demand is still at the same level. To remind - power is a current multiplied by voltage. To keep motor delivering the same power, current drawn from battery must be higher. And this is what battery really holds as its capacity - ampers per hour. By drawing more amperes, you discharge battery more. This explains why discharge rate at the same load is nonlinear. The more battery is discharged, the higher discharge rate is. This characteristics is quite complex to provide reliable charge/mileage data.

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On 7/18/2018 at 1:10 PM, EricGhost said:

You’re matching my KS18-L stats, all this guys claiming performance far away from mine were making me worried. I’m 95kg full geared and matching all your stats other parameters, with over 300km done my avg consumption is 16,5Wh/km gps (gps km/app km is 0.8 about). So when I stop with a 10% batteries (as soon as you move batteries loose 5-6%) left my range is 55-58km.

Thank you because now I know my wheel is ok and it is good because I like it for its agility and stability.

The 100km is just unfair marketing spot, maybe average Chinese 65kg with Km app ?

This result supports my rough estimation of possible range on an 18L for a rider fitting my profile; 6'2", 210lbs. Of course, for me this is a naked weight and adding packs as in your example changes things. Since I ride recreationally and rarely carry more than a couple of extra containers of bottled water, the effect of added weight is not of critical importance to me. I will also conduct a real range test to add to the body of rider stat data when the 18L arrives.

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4 hours ago, Seba said:

It's normal that battery discharge rate is faster when battery is low on charge. It is because battery voltage is going lower as the battery discharge, however power demand is still at the same level. To remind - power is a current multiplied by voltage. To keep motor delivering the same power, current drawn from battery must be higher. And this is what battery really holds as its capacity - ampers per hour. By drawing more amperes, you discharge battery more. This explains why discharge rate at the same load is nonlinear. The more battery is discharged, the higher discharge rate is. This characteristics is quite complex to provide reliable charge/mileage data.

Right quite dangerous to ride near the empty cell

 

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I am getting ~60km , but have not finshed 2nd charge yet. :) I'm at 40% with about 45km on the 2nd charge.

I also tend to recharge at about 20%.

For me, 20+ miles on my 16S was incredible. So, anything over 30 miles is such a small package is simply astonishing.

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On 7/19/2018 at 11:25 PM, Circuitmage said:

I am getting ~60km , but have not finshed 2nd charge yet. :) I'm at 40% with about 45km on the 2nd charge.

I also tend to recharge at about 20%.

For me, 20+ miles on my 16S was incredible. So, anything over 30 miles is such a small package is simply astonishing.

The point is not that 60km are a few, but that KS sells 100km as a standard for the product

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17 hours ago, EricGhost said:

The point is not that 60km are a few, but that KS sells 100km as a standard for the product

So does the other ~1000Wh manufacturers: Inmotion (V10F), Ninebot (Z10), Rockwheel (GT16) and Gotway (Tesla). It's standard practice to announce the maximum range under optimal conditions.

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On 7/21/2018 at 5:38 AM, EricGhost said:

The point is not that 60km are a few, but that KS sells 100km as a standard for the product

Which is true at 60kg driver and steady driving 20kmh, i guess!

All companies EUC do that...also your car promotion is the same....under “laboratory “ they give you a number of consumption which is far from true...

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20 hours ago, US69 said:

Which is true at 60kg driver and steady driving 20kmh, i guess!

All companies EUC do that...also your car promotion is the same....under “laboratory “ they give you a number of consumption which is far from true...

Yes a part of true is that they sell laboratory the other part is that outside laboratory the gap is not 40% in automotive 

Edited by EricGhost

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13 hours ago, EricGhost said:

Yes a part of true is that they sell laboratory the other part is that outside laboratory the gap is not 40% in automotive 

Car mileage also has a 40% difference between maximum and minimum range, depending on the riding style and load. EUCs don’t have standards for announcing average mileage, which seems to be what people are expecting.

Although to make it clearer they should announce it as ”max range” instead of just ”range”.

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PEMD makers will always give the maximum specifications for range, weight( load), speed, and climbing ability. Why would they do other? Their marketing goal is not to provide information that will allow the buyer to judge them accurately in comparison with competitors; actually quite the contrary. EPA ratings don't reflect the real world for individual drivers. They are based on "calculations". Organizations like "Consumer Reports" try conduct controlled-uniform test", but even those test don't encompass the permutation-combination complexity of riding-driving styles, loads and terrains. 

During the early lead-acid, then Nimh days of electric kick scooters, I ran a website to debunk the claims of manufacturers. I created 5 routes with varied terrain and riding conditions, and tested all the major players at the time and reported-charted the results. After well over 50,000 km of riding-testing, I could only offer what I offer now to potential PEMD buyers - Take the ** manufacturer's highest claimed range and divide it in half. Weight, riding style, and terrain will determine whether you get ~20% more or less than that figure.

**eWheels usually tones down the manufacturer's range claims to better reflect reality. I am referring to the manufacturer's claims not eWheels.

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@Henrik Olsen

Hi! Is that true that you were also affected by KS18Lockgate?

Would you be willing to share deatails on the circumstances?

Cheers!

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3 hours ago, hal2000 said:

@Henrik Olsen

Hi! Is that true that you were also affected by KS18Lockgate?

Would you be willing to share deatails on the circumstances?

Cheers!

I guess this what to tell, main board whas shipped back, and a new arrived and now the wheel works as intended. I don't see what else there is to tell.

If gather this right it is not the first EUC with a bad board. It might be rare but this can still happen. We are talking consumer electronics here, not high sensable medical measure instruments.

So @Henrik Olsen does the current weather in Cph area or Denmark allow you to ride the wheel? 

I am considering real hard to pop down one day this week if weather forecast don't show rain and I beat my summer cold.

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32 minutes ago, Unventor said:

I guess this what to tell, main board whas shipped back, and a new arrived and now the wheel works as intended. I don't see what else there is to tell.

If gather this right it is not the first EUC with a bad board. It might be rare but this can still happen. We are talking consumer electronics here, not high sensable medical measure instruments.

 

My question was regarding the circumstances of the failure. Was it "death by trolleying" or something else? Having in mind the fact that Mr Olsen is an active YouTuber, EUC enthusiast and forum member I was surprised that I missed the sad news about his KS18L.

Also, considering the fact that riders safety and life may depend on the reliability of the board I would not be so lighthearted about it and I'd rather expect these boards to be treated just like (I believe you meant) 'sensitive' medical equipment rather than cheap consumer electronics.

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47 minutes ago, hal2000 said:

My question was regarding the circumstances of the failure. Was it "death by trolleying" or something else? Having in mind the fact that Mr Olsen is an active YouTuber, EUC enthusiast and forum member I was surprised that I missed the sad news about his KS18L.

Also, considering the fact that riders safety and life may depend on the reliability of the board I would not be so lighthearted about it and I'd rather expect these boards to be treated just like (I believe you meant) 'sensitive' medical equipment rather than cheap consumer electronics.

I don't think he himself has written about it here or talked in the videos from him either.

Well consumer electronics do got through quality control too. But tolerances and stress testing might differ a lot from manufacturer to manufacturer. A owner will not be able to give you details of a manufacturer process and policy during manufacturing, and I seriously doubt any manufacturer will give you those details. The level of detail shared through the KS rep @US69 is VERY rare and close to unprecedented while a company is still investigating issues.

Do you get this kind of details let's say from Apple or Microsoft, both make hardware and software using parts from contractors but still their own design. 

Or world Harly-Davidson share this with their customers you think? Or Yamaha for that matter? I don't think so, and don't recall so. They might at some point do a product recall but that is about it.

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12 hours ago, Unventor said:

I don't think he himself has written about it here or talked in the videos from him either.

So did it happen while trolleying or riding?

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2 hours ago, hal2000 said:

So did it happen while trolleying or riding?

From what @US69 wrote in this and other threads, I understand it as it happened during trolleying. 

You need to read the posts the KS rep wrote on the early stages of the investigation. 

On the other hand it does not matter much. Since if you have a faulty then the owner should contact his or her dealer. This forum do not contain all owners so building an opinion out of posts here could be very misleading. In any direction. For a manufacturer to identify a quality problem and not just dealing with a few faulty wheels. All need to report their faults to their dealer.

This is how it works almost any business to consumer. EUCs are no different. 

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On 8/13/2018 at 9:55 PM, hal2000 said:

Was it "death by trolleying" 

It was...he reported it on Facebook...Henrik sent his board to KS.

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@US69 Thanks for the clarification.

In a shopping mall? ;)

I believe we have +1 in these circumstances from Czech Republic

This wheel just hates shopping. Told ya.

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