MSuper Bucks after stopping on hill

[HeavyGoing]

Sorry to be repeating this but I was not sure how to move my post and this might be more relevant here or at least more likely to be seen by a Gotway expert.

250 lbs on serious hills. 

I did my first ride testing out the hills in my neighborhood.  I decided I would ride down to the local mall, have a smoothy, get a haircut.  Since I live at the top of a canyon, it was all down hill for the journey to the mall.  Felt good to be able to control the speed.  Made it over the small bumps in the sidewalk and road and was even able to go over the speed bumps in the mall.   I was feeling pretty good about being able to mount without a rail or lamp post even if it was sometimes with my arms flailing around like a windmill. 

On the return trip, I am cruising at about 9 miles an hour up a hill that emaciated bicyclist in spandex usually are pushing their bikes up.  Just a bit over a week into the sport and I am feeling like I am all that and a bag of chips.   I make a turn into the neighborhood and I am faced with a decision.  Do I take the long route or do I attack the big hill?

Thinking to myself.  No guts, no glory.   I make a left turn. 

Now as it turns out this was the suburban equivalent of the hillbilly  -  "Hey Earl,  watch this."  

I am going up the hill.   Leaning, not really sure if I should be able to get more speed or not.  Leaning a bit more..   I start to wonder is I should not be going from side to side or something when........

Thwack.  The wheel stops and I don't.  Of course, I was going so slow that I was able to land on my hands. Just scratches, not even blood.  (To add insult to injury, when I got home the wrist guards, I ordered from Amazon were waiting for me in a box at the door.)

But now my poor MSuper seems to have a problem.  When I turn it on it makes a kind of grinding noise and it bucks back and forth.  Everything is smooth if I wheel it around without power but once I power up it kinda bucks back and forth like a bronco.   I had to push it up the rest of the hill and back home.   Now whenever I turn it on it makes this noise and bucks.    It was not a particularly hard fall so I am wondering if there is some kind of reset I might try.  I am going to try going through the calibration to see if that helps.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Really curious how it's going to look inside. The behavior makes one think something must be broken. But dead mosfet or shorted motor cables would produce a locked tire. So this is new. 

For comfort, "ok I had a great ride, now let's try this!" is how my ACM did a similar thing to your wheel.

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

Sorry to hear. I would think the most likely scenario is a blow MOSFET. Aa shorted MOSFET is unlikely because when it gets shorted the battery power will be running at max battery pack current resulting in a instant evaporation of the MOSFET. 

if only one of the phases (ABC) and only one of the high or low MOSFET on the same phase was fried, in theory the wheel might still run bit rough. During driving toward a specific direction only two phases are turn on while the third is floating open circuit. So it yo get rolling, the wheel might run. My guess if you maintain a steady direction it might smooth out some. 

So anyway. Most likely a MOSFET poped. Sad enough this usually fries the circuit that drives the MOSFET also. To fix you would need the MOSFET chip and the driver chip. But I would replace them all. 

If you are to knowledgeable in the art of electrons and holes you should just order a new board like @Rehab1 did to fix his unit. 

I would be interested on the board if you are in the USA. 

[Marty Backe]

Wow, so sorry to hear about your problems, particularly after everything was going so well. Man, you must have some steep hills (could you PM me the location you were riding - out of curiosity I want to look at it in Google Earth to see how steep the hill is was relative to the steep hills that I ride).

Those symptoms that you describe sound like a loose axle nut, I can't imagine how your riding could cause this.

As @meepmeepmayer suggests, time to open the cover and take a look.

When you lay the wheel on it's side, normally you should be able to turn it on. The wheel won't attempt to spin, but the wheel will turn on. Before opening the shell do this, and assuming that it turns on, connect to the wheel and see if you can read the battery level, etc. If that all works than most likely the control board is OK.

Then it's going to be a matter of opening the side panel in see if any wires came loose. While under heavy load (no pun intended ) maybe one or more motor wires got hot enough the it came out of the connector or shorted to another wire.

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow, so sorry to hear about your problems, particularly after everything was going so well. Man, you must have some steep hills (could you PM me the location you were riding - out of curiosity I want to look at it in Google Earth to see how steep the hill is was relative to the steep hills that I ride).

Those symptoms that you describe sound like a loose axle nut, I can't imagine how your riding could cause this.

As @meepmeepmayer suggests, time to open the cover and take a look.

When you lay the wheel on it's side, normally you should be able to turn it on. The wheel won't attempt to spin, but the wheel will turn on. Before opening the shell do this, and assuming that it turns on, connect to the wheel and see if you can read the battery level, etc. If that all works than most likely the control board is OK.

Then it's going to be a matter of opening the side panel in see if any wires came loose. While under heavy load (no pun intended ) maybe one or more motor wires got hot enough the it came out of the connector or shorted to another wire.

Oh yeah. I forgot about that also. It's possible a wire got unsoldered. 

Open the cover and take pictures. 

[Rehab1]

2 hours ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

If you are to knowledgeable in the art of electrons and holes you should just order a new board like @Rehab1 did to fix his unit. 

Hopefully @esaj will be able to determine what component(s) died on my board.

[HeavyGoing]

2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow, so sorry to hear about your problems, particularly after everything was going so well. Man, you must have some steep hills (could you PM me the location you were riding - out of curiosity I want to look at it in Google Earth to see how steep the hill is was relative to the steep hills that I ride).

Those symptoms that you describe sound like a loose axle nut, I can't imagine how your riding could cause this.

As @meepmeepmayer suggests, time to open the cover and take a look.

When you lay the wheel on it's side, normally you should be able to turn it on. The wheel won't attempt to spin, but the wheel will turn on. Before opening the shell do this, and assuming that it turns on, connect to the wheel and see if you can read the battery level, etc. If that all works than most likely the control board is OK.

Then it's going to be a matter of opening the side panel in see if any wires came loose. While under heavy load (no pun intended ) maybe one or more motor wires got hot enough the it came out of the connector or shorted to another wire.

Well, after a nice dinner, the panel comes off and look what we have here.

 

I won't go as far as to say that this is THE problem but I am pretty sure is A problem.

Now to find a connector....

 

[HeavyGoing]

This seems to be the wire connected to motor B.  The yellow and green are connected to motor A and C.

[Marty Backe]

49 minutes ago, HeavyGoing said:

Well, after a nice dinner, the panel comes off and look what we have here.

 

I won't go as far as to say that this is THE problem but I am pretty sure is A problem.

Now to find a connector....

 

I had applied silicon across the connectors in the hopes that it would prevent this from happening. I rode ~800 miles on that wheel! It must really come down to lots of current causing the solder to melt/soften enough to allow the wire to come off. Your weight in combination with a steep hill was enough to do it. @Rehab1 and others will be interested to know that my silicon had no effect 

The only reason that you would need the connectors is to swap the control board. Personally, I would solder the wires together. @jrkline recently had the same failure on his ACM and I believe he chose to use wirenuts.

I would do all three wires while you're at it.

[HermanTheGerman]

Thats very interesting.

Wouldn't it be better to use something like that instead of soldering it (because it may melt again).

[HeavyGoing]

Hi Marty,

I guess my tonnage did the trick on it! 

I am trying to figure out what the best way to go on it. I spoke with an ex electrician friend who said that I absolutely should not solder and I was just reading another thread here which states that soldering is the best way to go.   Once I figure out which direction to go I will certainly be doing all three! 

I reckon it is like the makers say - you don't own it until you open it up.

 

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

9 minutes ago, HeavyGoing said:

Hi Marty,

I guess my tonnage did the trick on it! 

I am trying to figure out what the best way to go on it. I spoke with an ex electrician friend who said that I absolutely should not solder and I was just reading another thread here which states that soldering is the best way to go.   Once I figure out which direction to go I will certainly be doing all three! 

I reckon it is like the makers say - you don't own it until you open it up.

 

Use a screw splice terminal connector like the picture. 

 

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

Use a screw splice terminal connector like the picture. 

 

There are also screw splice terminal connectors with 2 screws to connect cables: 

Oonce threaded cables are used with this type of connection, wire ferrules are highly recommended! Anyhow - i would not trust such connections in an EUC (vibrations, shocks, loosening of contact by "creeping" or temperature change, oxidation...)

Same as with:

5 hours ago, HermanTheGerman said:

Thats very interesting.

Wouldn't it be better to use something like that instead of soldering it (because it may melt again).

Both of this mechanical connection also have the problem that the real contact area is quite small compared to the surface of the wires ( ?constriction resistance? )

 

Imho exactly this cable/connection problem was discussed quite in detail somewhere in 

 

 

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Can anybody confirm these are the old style motor connectors? What's the wheel's production date?

Assuming it's not a new surprise problem with the new ones, good you learnt this way you have the bad connectors, and didn't get hurt. Also, nothing much damaged, just an annoying repair. But still...

For more connector info, @Rehab1 is the resident expert here.

Here's a thread about the connectors used on his ACM (they are for the bigger wire diameter the newer motors have as opposed to yours, so mind that):

Here's the video from the Autopsy thread showing how he does these connectors:

If you can't/don't want to do it yourself, showing this info to a electrician/electric bycicle repair shop might do the trick.

[Rehab1]

15 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

For more connector info, @Rehab1 is the resident expert here.

Ah shucks!   More of a passionate tinkerer.

[Mono]

10 hours ago, HeavyGoing said:

I won't go as far as to say that this is THE problem but I am pretty sure is A problem.

and a well known problem as well

 

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

9 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I had applied silicon across the connectors in the hopes that it would prevent this from happening. I rode ~800 miles on that wheel! It must really come down to lots of current causing the solder to melt/soften enough to allow the wire to come off. Your weight in combination with a steep hill was enough to do it. @Rehab1 and others will be interested to know that my silicon had no effect 

The only reason that you would need the connectors is to swap the control board. Personally, I would solder the wires together. @jrkline recently had the same failure on his ACM and I believe he chose to use wirenuts.

I would do all three wires while you're at it.

My ACM which is also formerly owned by Marty BrokeBacke had the failure occur a couple weeks ago while riding with @Marty Backe and @noisycarlos in the Whittier area.I did a temporary field repair by cutting out the connector altogether with the only tool I had on me(pocket knife) and twisted the wires together and taped them up.It got me another 12 miles out of the hills no problems.I would probably twist the wires together and solder them as Marty BrokeBacke suggests as a permanent repair.Applying silicone to the outside of the connectors is kind of like putting on the rubber after intercourse. 

[Rehab1]

11 hours ago, HeavyGoing said:

Well, after a nice dinner, the panel comes off and look what we have here.

 

I won't go as far as to say that this is THE problem but I am pretty sure is A problem.

Now to find a connector....

 

3.5 mm bullet connectors are currently used on the ACM. I upgraded to a 4.5 mm version just for the added amperage allowance. The connectors depicted on the right of the photo are GW's updated version and on the left are my larger connectors. All of my connectors are double sealed in shrink wrap. 

 

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Can anybody confirm these are the old style motor connectors? What's the wheel's production date?

<snip>

This was my original MSuper (one of the first batch into the United States - fall of 2016). It has original Gotway connectors.

[Marty Backe]

11 hours ago, HeavyGoing said:

Hi Marty,

I guess my tonnage did the trick on it! 

I am trying to figure out what the best way to go on it. I spoke with an ex electrician friend who said that I absolutely should not solder and I was just reading another thread here which states that soldering is the best way to go.   Once I figure out which direction to go I will certainly be doing all three! 

I reckon it is like the makers say - you don't own it until you open it up.

 

At least you should feel very confident with the wheel after the wires are repaired. This seems to be the only problem that some wheels have.

[meepmeepmayer]

@Marty Backe So it is literally your old msuper. Good to know this is not a new issue then.

Also, are you by chance trying to secretly kill people with your old wheels? Twice already now, @noisycarlos next? (he did buy your other 67V ACM right?)

 

[Carlos E Rodriguez]

The one bothering though is that even 12 gauge is not rated to carry continuous 30 AMPS. technically speaking it is split at a PWM duty cycle and further in two phases at a time.

• So has anyone recorded how many amps the app reports when the solder meltdown occurs?

Proper solder should not melt unless something is very wrong:

TIN/LEAD ALLOYS
From the following diagram, it can be seen that most tin/lead solders have a plastic range, i.e. on heating they are pasty between the solid and liquid states.

• The solders are solid at 183°C (361°F). According to the alloy composition they have different plastic ranges.
• 60/40 tin/lead alloy for example becomes liquid at 188°C (370°F) and therefore has a plastic range of 5°C (9°F),
• 40/60 tin/lead alloy for example becomes liquid at 244°C ( 453°F) has a plastic range of 51°C (92°F).
• HMP alloy alloy for example becomes liquid at 300°C  ( 572F) (USUALLY HAS SILVER ON IT) can therefore be relied upon in service up to about 255°C compared with about 145°C for the common tin/lead alloys. HMP alloy is consequently particularly suitable for soldering electric motors, car radiators, high temperature lamps and other products which are likely to meet relatively high temperatures during their working life.

FYI: plastic means is becomes deform-able.

 

PLEASE PICK THE CORRECT SOLDER:315929.pdf

• Using low lead will cause failure.  I recommend you use High Melting Point(HMP) Temperature solder with silver on it.

[Marty Backe]

I know, tell me about it. I think Carlos is planning on getting a new model, so hopefully that'll happen before his wheel gives out 

In both cases with my older wheels, there was a lot more weight on the wheel and they were climbing steep hills. Carlos is closer to my weight, so maybe he'll avoid the infamous Gotway wire failure.

[Scully]

Another point to the OP. Watch out starting your journey at the start of a big hill.... 

If you start with 100% battery, then ride down hill the regenerative breaking can cause the wheel to shut off. 
The way around it is to use a charge doctor, and only charge to 80/90%

[esaj]

1 hour ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said:

The one bothering though is that even 12 gauge is not rated to carry continuous 30 AMPS. technically speaking it is split at a PWM duty cycle and further in two phases at a time.

• So has anyone recorded how many amps the app reports when the solder meltdown occurs?

Proper solder should not melt unless something is very wrong:

TIN/LEAD ALLOYS
From the following diagram, it can be seen that most tin/lead solders have a plastic range, i.e. on heating they are pasty between the solid and liquid states.

• The solders are solid at 183°C (361°F). According to the alloy composition they have different plastic ranges.
• 60/40 tin/lead alloy for example becomes liquid at 188°C (370°F) and therefore has a plastic range of 5°C (9°F),
• 40/60 tin/lead alloy for example becomes liquid at 244°C ( 453°F) has a plastic range of 51°C (92°F).
• HMP alloy alloy for example becomes liquid at 300°C  ( 572F) (USUALLY HAS SILVER ON IT) can therefore be relied upon in service up to about 255°C compared with about 145°C for the common tin/lead alloys. HMP alloy is consequently particularly suitable for soldering electric motors, car radiators, high temperature lamps and other products which are likely to meet relatively high temperatures during their working life.

FYI: plastic means is becomes deform-able.

 

PLEASE PICK THE CORRECT SOLDER:315929.pdf

• Using low lead will cause failure.  I recommend you use High Melting Point(HMP) Temperature solder with silver on it.

Leaded solder has been forbidden in commercial products since 2003 or something, when the RoHS (Reduction of Hazardous Substances) -directive came into force, so I don't think it's leaded solder. I personally use multicore 63/37 "eutectic" (no "plastic"-state, goes from solid to liquid instantly) tin/lead -solder or 60/39/1 tin/lead/copper for my own stuff, as it's easier to work with than non-leaded solders, but you won't find that in commercial products (well, at least you shouldn't). The lead-free ones usually have much higher melting point (>200C) than the leaded ones.