Chriull Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 15 minutes ago, MoNo said: For what? For not faceplanting. 6 minutes ago, MoNo said: For some reason the most frequently expressed opinion seem to be that bicycles passing EUCs is dangerous while EUCs passing bicycles is enjoyable, with the logical consequence that EUCs should better not go slower than bicycles. I am sensing some unexplainable bias here I'd say every overtaking wirhout secure safety distance and some forsight can be dangerous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudust Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 @OliverH Is escooter covered by PLEV? Are front/rear light mandatory on PLEVs? I see a bell would be needed. Is a license plate required for all the self-declared PLEV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceMan Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 On 16.10.2016 at 3:22 PM, OliverH said: 25 km/h is max allowed design speed by PLEV. We should take that and work for an additional category for those who want to go faster. PLEV currently deals with 6 km/h and 25 km/h devices. More than 25 km/h is competition (private area/ sports competition). I'm the cruiser type, for me 20/ 25 km/h is enough. Legalising 25 km/h right now with PLEV lifts our EUC to an other level of maturity/ safety. If we like to legalise 30/ 35 km/h than this will have higher requirement. Probably more brake power and more usecases on behaviour handling. We can use the reputation of PLEV to establish other vehicle classes/ categories. Let's do it step by step. @OliverH I sincerely appreciate your devotion to advance the course of EUCs in the EU and the German speaking countries in particular. Could you please give us an update about the likely time line of the ongoing negotiations? How long might it reasonably take before a new legal framework covering EUCs can be expected to take effect? How much longer will German EUC lovers have to live in the dark afraid of criminal prosecution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgen Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 On 10/11/2016 at 9:06 AM, flass said: I wish you good luck with that! However, I find it highly unlikely that there will be an EUC that meets these requirements available in any near future. The redundant systems will add a significant amount of both weight and space. And I guess the cost will be more than doubled. But in general I find the requirements very reasonable and I will definitely encourage any approach to create a EUC that will pass the criteria for the PLEV certification. Redundancy comew in different forms and grades: f. ex. I don't expecxt the regulations will insist on 2 wheels on a monowheel. Splitting it up in 2 groups, <6Km/h and up to 25Km/h, also makes it a lot easier to implement, the first category is low risk so it needs only minimal standards. Above 25Km/h it will be very hard (expensive) to develop a "safe" device, so the biggest part of the discussion will probably be for the <25Km/h group I guess. Some safety measures or redundancy is easy to implement: (braking) lights, battery Q standards, and double batteries (50/50 approach), with double control board, with double connectors on the batt and on the CB, etc, and don't have to cost a fortune. For the more dificult parts, improved design (higher qualtiy materials, cooling, etc), improved production standards, Q control, and on- board self diagnosis could improve the safety a lot without having full redundancy. It's all about risk, so safety gear standards and regulations come into play also. All this will drive cost up but also level of adoption of LPEV, in conclusion overall a good thing for the community and the environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceMan Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 On 13.10.2016 at 4:48 PM, OliverH said: There will be a new category coming. When? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 On 20.10.2016 at 2:45 AM, RenaissanceMan said: @OliverH I sincerely appreciate your devotion to advance the course of EUCs in the EU and the German speaking countries in particular. Could you please give us an update about the likely time line of the ongoing negotiations? How long might it reasonably take before a new legal framework covering EUCs can be expected to take effect? How much longer will German EUC lovers have to live in the dark afraid of criminal prosecution? PLEV final standard is expected tot he end of 2017. Each European country need to define categories like the Scandinavian countries just did. PLEV can than be mapped. Problem in Germany is that all decisions are made behind closed door. But there's some progress expected. I'm currently happy with every little step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceMan Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 On 16.10.2016 at 3:22 PM, OliverH said: 25 km/h is max allowed design speed by PLEV. We should take that and work for an additional category for those who want to go faster. PLEV currently deals with 6 km/h and 25 km/h devices. More than 25 km/h is competition (private area/ sports competition). I'm the cruiser type, for me 20/ 25 km/h is enough. Legalising 25 km/h right now with PLEV lifts our EUC to an other level of maturity/ safety. If we like to legalise 30/ 35 km/h than this will have higher requirement. Probably more brake power and more usecases on behaviour handling. We can use the reputation of PLEV to establish other vehicle classes/ categories. Let's do it step by step. I'm also of the cruiser type but our preferences should not bar everyone else from going over 25km/h just because that's the sweet spot for a few of us. Besides, some safety marging at the upper end is necessary for technical reasons and emergency maneuvers. Once PLEV might be ratified that will be it for a long time. Everyone (esp. of the politicians) will be happy to close this can of worms and not want to go back to the negotiating table anyway near in the future. Everything else will have to go into the competition category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceMan Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, OliverH said: PLEV final standard is expected tot he end of 2017. Each European country need to define categories like the Scandinavian countries just did. PLEV can than be mapped. Problem in Germany is that all decisions are made behind closed door. But there's some progress expected. I'm currently happy with every little step. Thanks a lot for your assessment! From the answers I got from BASt and BMVI I got the same feeling. And that's exactly why I think it's still important and worth while to get to the bottom of the current legal situation on EUCs in D-A-CH by involving legal experts on traffic regulations and EU legislature, so that there will be at least for the time being (and 'til the end of 2017 is yet another year) an uniform, homogenized ruling in each country and not the current arbitrariness of any police officer's whim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 20 minutes ago, RenaissanceMan said: Thanks a lot for your assessment! From the answers I got from BASt and BMVI I got the same feeling. And that's exactly why I think it's still important and worth while to get to the bottom of the current legal situation on EUCs in D-A-CH by involving legal experts on traffic regulations and EU legislature, so that there will be at least for the time being (and 'til the end of 2017 is yet another year) an uniform, homogenized ruling in each country and not the current arbitrariness of any police officer's whim. Currently we need to get a vehicle category with type approval. That's the current situation. PLEV is intended to address a non type approved vehicle category like eBikes up to 25 km/h. Product safety law and the sentence safe operation dictates us safety of machinery anyway (base of PLEV). I can't imagine an overlapping rule up to 2018. Wonderful if this happens anyway but haven't received any signal that thus could happen. I go to France to make a ride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceMan Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 9 minutes ago, OliverH said: ... I go to France to make a ride. That's absurd - especially in the year 2016 and the omnipresent lip service to clean, electric mobility. Regrettably, for me France is not a practical solution ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 47 minutes ago, RenaissanceMan said: I'm also of the cruiser type but our preferences should not bar everyone else to go over 25km/h just because that's the sweet spot for a few of us. Speed limits are not so much a question of preferences of riders, but of the protection of everybody else. There is no "symmetry" between cruisers and speeders. Also from the view point of added transportation value, higher speeds have probably a much less favorable benefit to risk ratio. The legislator has any freedom, AFAICS. They can decide to legally define that EUCs are bicycles from the legal view point (as they did with Pedelecs). That wouldn't help us, because we cannot fit two brakes on EUCs. But they can also legislate that if a bicycle (in the legal sense) has only one wheel they don't need brakes, only lights, etc. etc... It is all a matter of preferences and choices by those who can make the choice, not of principle infeasibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 26, 2016 Author Share Posted October 26, 2016 8 minutes ago, RenaissanceMan said: That's absurd - especially in the year 2016 and the omnipresent lip service to clean, electric mobility. Regrettably, for me France is not a practical solution ! For me it's half an hour by car or a bit more by train. I enjoy every track. Did a run from Basel to Muhlhouse one/ two weeks ago. So funny. And we did a weekend trip (two days riding) in the Sundgau region. So nice. Because of EUC I joined with my family a meeting in Luxembourg. Never been there before. In september I was in Paris joining the international PLEV workshop for two days. Had my MSuper with me and make some rides in Paris. So nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenaissanceMan Posted October 26, 2016 Share Posted October 26, 2016 11 minutes ago, OliverH said: For me it's half an hour by car or a bit more by train. I enjoy every track. Did a run from Basel to Muhlhouse one/ two weeks ago. So funny. And we did a weekend trip (two days riding) in the Sundgau region. So nice. Because of EUC I joined with my family a meeting in Luxembourg. Never been there before. In september I was in Paris joining the international PLEV workshop for two days. Had my MSuper with me and make some rides in Paris. So nice. I envy you - greatly ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudust Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 @OliverH Is there any publicly available information/minutes on the AFNOR meeting in Sept? Besides EUC, many new companies are developing kick e-scooters but they are not legal to ride on the public roads in most EU countries. Is there any way to get kick e-scooter type approved before the PLEV in place (after 2018)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cloudust Posted November 9, 2016 Share Posted November 9, 2016 @OliverH Don't know if you can give advice on pedestrian mode Should it be switched on via an APP or require a physical button? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em1barns Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 @OliverH, it would be nice if you could provide us with a regular update on Plev recommendations' progress. Was there any progress? What is left to decide / agree on? Is the ETA still end of 2017? What made previous ETA of end 2016 slip? Any update would be highly appreciated, as this would be a game changer for us, European wheelers. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Fucking overregulation! Though I do not expect them to treat electric bikes as PLEV, otherwise they would see how stupid some of the proposals are (an authorisation device on a bike??? Or EUC??? Really??? After every step down I'm supposed to get out my phone or a key?) And of course a totally counterproductive 25km/h built in limit. God help us before EUCs actually get useful and better than other means of transport, quick, let's cripple them! Guess I have to buy a "competition" EUC (are racing bikes "competition bikes"???) than can go faster and drive around with 26 km/h in rush hour traffic (OH WAIT THEY DONT EVEN PLAN TO ALLOW FASTER EUCS!) daily until they allow them on bike paths again (I'm totally fine with a 25 km/h speed limit there, that's not the point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pingouin Posted February 28, 2017 Share Posted February 28, 2017 Europe was talking about legalising the 32kph limit speed for E-bikes (like in the US), if it does, perhaps the legal limit for EUC will be 32kph in the future (although there is actually no limit in my country). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted March 3, 2017 Author Share Posted March 3, 2017 On 8.2.2017 at 8:52 AM, em1barns said: @OliverH, it would be nice if you could provide us with a regular update on Plev recommendations' progress. Was there any progress? What is left to decide / agree on? Is the ETA still end of 2017? What made previous ETA of end 2016 slip? Any update would be highly appreciated, as this would be a game changer for us, European wheelers. Thanks in advance. The review by national standardisation agencies will start in June and end in September. Depending on the feedback a new draft will be made. PLEV took it's way to draft versions to be done a final draft and published later. This is the normal process of standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
em1barns Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 On 03/03/2017 at 1:19 AM, OliverH said: The review by national standardisation agencies will start in June and end in September. Depending on the feedback a new draft will be made. PLEV took it's way to draft versions to be done a final draft and published later. This is the normal process of standards. Thanks for the update! Will this first draft be available to public, and if so, where could we get it from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 Better buy your fast EUC now before they are not produced anymore. I have an idea. The manufacturers should make the motors be 800w to 1000w and limit to meet regulations inside the control board. Then we can develop an open source board to unlock the top speed. Like jail breaking a phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 23, 2017 Share Posted March 23, 2017 23 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: Better buy your fast EUC now before they are not produced anymore. I have an idea. The manufacturers should make the motors be 800w to 1000w and limit to meet regulations inside the control board. Then we can develop an open source board to unlock the top speed. Like jail breaking a phone. I wouldn't worry. Asia is a much bigger market and they aren't going to be bound by rules from Brussels. Neither is the United States. Unfortunately our European riders are going to suffer from the bureaucrats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 2:06 PM, meepmeepmayer said: Fucking overregulation! Though I do not expect them to treat electric bikes as PLEV, otherwise they would see how stupid some of the proposals are (an authorisation device on a bike??? Or EUC??? Really??? After every step down I'm supposed to get out my phone or a key?) And of course a totally counterproductive 25km/h built in limit. God help us before EUCs actually get useful and better than other means of transport, quick, let's cripple them! Guess I have to buy a "competition" EUC (are racing bikes "competition bikes"???) than can go faster and drive around with 26 km/h in rush hour traffic (OH WAIT THEY DONT EVEN PLAN TO ALLOW FASTER EUCS!) daily until they allow them on bike paths again (I'm totally fine with a 25 km/h speed limit there, that's not the point). You think that is bad, try using solar panels, local corrupt government and utilitiles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 On 23/03/2017 at 4:12 PM, Marty Backe said: Unfortunately our European riders are going to suffer from the bureaucrats. To my understanding the European bureaucrats will make laws that guaranty citizens to be allowed to ride certain type of wheels. They won't restrict whatever any individual country sees fit to use for their citizens additionally. In other words, to my understanding the European bureaucrats will restrict the countries to make over-restrictive prohibition laws. Thereby the European bureaucrats will protect the citizens to suffer from over-restrictive laws. I don't see how that could make us European riders suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricGhost Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 On 23/3/2017 at 3:46 PM, Carlos E Rodriguez said: Better buy your fast EUC now before they are not produced anymore. I have an idea. The manufacturers should make the motors be 800w to 1000w and limit to meet regulations inside the control board. Then we can develop an open source board to unlock the top speed. Like jail breaking a phone. Power for speed is not the only view point, I personally prefer power for torque, you can have a 2000w at 32kmph and climb mountains with it. Higher torque will give higher acceleration/braking deceleration higher stability (we stay on EUC because of torque not speed) Unfortunately this means higher currents which will require thicker cables, higher temperatures,... it's cheaper for manufacturers to sell speed less safe for us customers to buy it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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