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Which of the current big manufacturer will survive?


OliverH

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20 hours ago, OliverH said:

Public enquiry with the member bodies start next year. What are you looking for?

I'm looking for a clear guideline on how the tests should be conducted and which directive PLEV (doesn't matter one, two or three wheels).

As far as I know, certification agents, like TUV Rheinland and SGS have different views on which directives should be tested for EUC. Some said it should follow machinery directive and some said it should follow R&TTE or RED because it has bluetooth module.

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@EricGhost@OliverH

No matter what certifications/regulation will be required. The main problem is : if  this PLEV regulation is  made to authorize euc on the road this mean for italy that you neeed to pay plate,insurance and any other tax that politicians will invent to make cash for them and insurance company.

I started to sell EUC because is a green vehicle,useful in big city and I hope that it become more popular in Italy.Of course if I need to pay 400/500 euro /year I prefer to go back to using my old diesel.

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1 hour ago, cloudust said:

I'm looking for a clear guideline on how the tests should be conducted and which directive PLEV (doesn't matter one, two or three wheels).

As far as I know, certification agents, like TUV Rheinland and SGS have different views on which directives should be tested for EUC. Some said it should follow machinery directive and some said it should follow R&TTE or RED because it has bluetooth module.

TUEV and Dekra are member in the german mirror board. Which indicates that PLEV will be prepared to use. TUEV can use their Service (geprüfte Sicherheit/ safety approved) to state that the PLEV is complaint to PLEV. Which ensures for distributors that the device is complaint.

The PLEV gives guidelines how to test. Some test can be conducted on road and/ or lab (braking) other tests are clear how to test in the lab. This differences should be over with PLEV.

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1 hour ago, Berus said:

@EricGhost@OliverH

No matter what certifications/regulation will be required. The main problem is : if  this PLEV regulation is  made to authorize euc on the road this mean for italy that you neeed to pay plate,insurance and any other tax that politicians will invent to make cash for them and insurance company.

I started to sell EUC because is a green vehicle,useful in big city and I hope that it become more popular in Italy.Of course if I need to pay 400/500 euro /year I prefer to go back to using my old diesel.

If you look currently on MobHV (Germany) or VTS (Switzerland) the type approved Segways need a motor bicycle licence plate => round about 50-60 EUR

PLEV handles technical and test requirements in a matter to be used on public road, bicycle lane - street legal (non type approved). The scandinavian countries are still prepared (have a matching vehicle category) and can use PLEV (Change with their national regulations). Every european country needs to establish this vehicle category. Suggestion is to use it like a 25 km/h eBike covered by private liability insurance.

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12 minutes ago, OliverH said:

Suggestion is to use it like a 25 km/h eBike covered by private liability insurance.

Treating EUC's the same as e-bikes would currently be impossible because the regulation for e-bikes (up to 25 km/h and 600 W) in Austria is the same as for conventional bikes. So EUC's would currently be treated as bikes and would have to have two independant brake systems, reflectors of a defined size and and much more.

EUC's don't fit into the current regulation for bikes in Austria. And I hope and pray that any regulative measure whatsoever won't mean to completely ban EUC's from public space - because quite frankly I don't like riding my wheel in the living room.

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On ‎11‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 10:19 PM, HEC said:

I must say that I'm highly disturbed by such negative attitude towards PLEV (or any other certification / regulation process of EUCs) ... :(

One think is "informed" EUC enthusiast purchasing the "unsafe" / uncertified wheel and well (or at east more or less) aware of it's shortcomings and dangers to later on brake his / her own neck due to ignoring the risks / known possible risks. And completely different thing is a normal "consumer" purchasing the EUC in a good faith it's safe (within the reason) and due to lack of the knowledge (be it fundamental basics of how EUCs work in general or being unaware of specific issue of the wheel in his / her possession) or even basic documentation he / she will crash and harm or kill himself / herself or other innocent bystanders!

I'd like to see how quickly your opinion would change if such person would harm you or one of your close ones ...

Regulations (as much as unpopular they might be) are needed otherwise we'd be surrounded by exploding electronic devices, unsafe cars, busses, trains, building ... everything.

Also the manufacturers can (and SHOULD) actively participate in all on-going preparations and discussions for PLEV (or any other certifications) thus be ready instead of surprised once it's in place and enforced giving  them plenty of time to prepare and develop their products ahead of the time. And those who don't give a f**k - I'm sorry - but good riddance!

Is there a chance that regulation will become to strict? Yes indeed but that's why the knowledgeable people needs to participate in preparation of the PLEV including the leading manufacturers to avoid "overshooting". Would it push some manufactures out of (EUC) business? Most certainly. But those responsible and prepared will survive - to benefit of all of us. Will the prices of EUCs go up drastically? Maybe but maybe not that much (considering the benefits) or maybe not at all. Once the certification is in place more resellers can get into "game" including big existing store chains until now avoiding such product exactly for the reason of missing or non-existent certifications.

While there is still lot of uncertainty surrounding the PLEV one thing is for sure - it's coming and it will sort out the playing field. I personally would not be sorry to see any of the "incompetent" / "irresponsible" manufacturers to go including GW or KS. I don't think this will lead to any monopoly or cartel on the EUC market. It's still niche and at it's early stages so any such attempts to control such young market would most likely fail and turn against the company/-ies attempting to do so instead.

Perhaps "Pro" PLEV froum members should not read further ;-)

 

Ok,

PLEV will became a kind of european Standard, and will perhaps -as most regulations of EU-, come into Play in the most european countries....or will be even duty at a certain time in the EU countries......

I personally think that with the first 2 Points of redundancy, most "small Players" will get out of the Business as they can not fullfill this (and i even believe "redundancy" is at some Point of view not possible on a ONE wheel).....even former "bigplayers" like IPS can nowadays finance a wheel only by crowdfunding(Ips Zero)...as they have no financial backgound to develope completly new!

So what will happen? Perhaps Ninebot or INmotion are able to produce a nice-expensive-redundancy-bellhaving-batterysafe! -25kmh-max E-wheel......while GW, KS are (hopefully for them) going on producing real nice wheel's which go up 40kmh or so for the rest of the world or even Asia!

Because of the Implemtentation of PLEV in the EU -unfortunatly- i will not longer be able to drive the/my KS and GW, because when this Kind of Regulation becomes law, i can give you a 1000% sure that the days of "98% toleration" from the german Police finally are over! And that also in other european countries! So i will then have the choice to drive a nice-expensive-redundancy-bellhaving-batterysafe-slow 9B or IM with number plate/insurance and "official allowance" ....or.... ->drive nothing!

 

And thats why i have a "higly negative attitude" and  that has nothing to do with being against Quality!!! I am all times for good Quality and can just Point to the post of @Marty Backe...Nowadays a bad product is very fast regulated by the internet-affin community and very fast out of the game!

 

So i wish, that IF there is a Regulation, it would be much, much more EUC friendly and weaker! No constraints of redundancy! Not to be stopped at 25kmh or if so, then  with another type of EUC which can go faster! THEN perhaps this Regulation could help the market......

But as it is now? I can only say: Nope...thanx a Lot!

I even go a step further: With european Regulation "excesses" -i do not mean especially PLEV-, they are slowing down the progress of Electric movement/locomotion/last mile devices!

Even nowadays in nearly the hole world you can drive a bycicle with a nice powerfull electric Motor of your choice......

here in Germany, when it has more power than 250Watt(sic!) or when it is faster as 25kmh, or it functions without pedal assistence -> you Need a number plate and extra insurance, and an e-bike which can go faster as 40kmh is even totally forbidden!

So-Hip Hip Hurray, give me even some more regulations ;-)  When we Europeans are under PLEV...we can look back in this Forum and remember how much fun we had -for example- with the newest MSuper V3 or ACM or KS18 or KS16 or V8 or V5F+ (which are all not allowed on the streets anymore then!!!) and remember the good old days.....

Rant over :-)

Dont shoot to hard on me...i know a Kind of Regulation has to be-but this one i find way overshooted!

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1 hour ago, OliverH said:

If you look currently on MobHV (Germany) or VTS (Switzerland) the type approved Segways need a motor bicycle licence plate => round about 50-60 EUR

PLEV handles technical and test requirements in a matter to be used on public road, bicycle lane - street legal (non type approved). The scandinavian countries are still prepared (have a matching vehicle category) and can use PLEV (Change with their national regulations). Every european country needs to establish this vehicle category. Suggestion is to use it like a 25 km/h eBike covered by private liability insurance.

Of course I 'm favorable to establish this vehicle category.

The main problem is that I don't live in Germany,Switzerland or scandinavian countries but in Italy :D:wacko:where there aren't any incentive  to promote electric vehicles.

Incentive is for vehicle that use petrol (one of the most taxed thing ) = good incoming for government. Only bicycle with pedal assistence can run .. no other electric vehicle

Here the cost of a vehicle plate+tax+insurance can't be less than 300/400 euro per year ..this is sure ( I know that in Switzerland is nothing ..but not here) .

@KingSong69  I agree with most of the things you said . :)

 

and at the end ... the cityroads have already a lot of problems (traffic etc etc ) ..why introduce the eucs ? :D

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3 hours ago, Berus said:

Of course I 'm favorable to establish this vehicle category.

The main problem is that I don't live in Germany,Switzerland or scandinavian countries but in Italy :D:wacko:where there aren't any incentive  to promote electric vehicles.

Incentive is for vehicle that use petrol (one of the most taxed thing ) = good incoming for government. Only bicycle with pedal assistence can run .. no other electric vehicle

Here the cost of a vehicle plate+tax+insurance can't be less than 300/400 euro per year ..this is sure ( I know that in Switzerland is nothing ..but not here) .

@KingSong69  I agree with most of the things you said . :)

 

and at the end ... the cityroads have already a lot of problems (traffic etc etc ) ..why introduce the eucs ? :D

Let's start to get in contact with gov. This new classes help gov to reach Kyoto target for 2020/ 2030 and so on. Look at the full story with green personal transportation (Ok this means also green power plant).

5 hours ago, Dodgez said:

Treating EUC's the same as e-bikes would currently be impossible because the regulation for e-bikes (up to 25 km/h and 600 W) in Austria is the same as for conventional bikes. So EUC's would currently be treated as bikes and would have to have two independant brake systems, reflectors of a defined size and and much more.

EUC's don't fit into the current regulation for bikes in Austria. And I hope and pray that any regulative measure whatsoever won't mean to completely ban EUC's from public space - because quite frankly I don't like riding my wheel in the living room.

There will be a new category coming. 

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3 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Perhaps "Pro" PLEV froum members should not read further ;-)

 

Ok,

PLEV will became a kind of european Standard, and will perhaps -as most regulations of EU-, come into Play in the most european countries....or will be even duty at a certain time in the EU countries......

I personally think that with the first 2 Points of redundancy, most "small Players" will get out of the Business as they can not fullfill this (and i even believe "redundancy" is at some Point of view not possible on a ONE wheel).....even former "bigplayers" like IPS can nowadays finance a wheel only by crowdfunding(Ips Zero)...as they have no financial backgound to develope completly new!

So what will happen? Perhaps Ninebot or INmotion are able to produce a nice-expensive-redundancy-bellhaving-batterysafe! -25kmh-max E-wheel......while GW, KS are (hopefully for them) going on producing real nice wheel's which go up 40kmh or so for the rest of the world or even Asia!

Because of the Implemtentation of PLEV in the EU -unfortunatly- i will not longer be able to drive the/my KS and GW, because when this Kind of Regulation becomes law, i can give you a 1000% sure that the days of "98% toleration" from the german Police finally are over! And that also in other european countries! So i will then have the choice to drive a nice-expensive-redundancy-bellhaving-batterysafe-slow 9B or IM with number plate/insurance and "official allowance" ....or.... ->drive nothing!

 

And thats why i have a "higly negative attitude" and  that has nothing to do with being against Quality!!! I am all times for good Quality and can just Point to the post of @Marty Backe...Nowadays a bad product is very fast regulated by the internet-affin community and very fast out of the game!

 

So i wish, that IF there is a Regulation, it would be much, much more EUC friendly and weaker! No constraints of redundancy! Not to be stopped at 25kmh or if so, then  with another type of EUC which can go faster! THEN perhaps this Regulation could help the market......

But as it is now? I can only say: Nope...thanx a Lot!

I even go a step further: With european Regulation "excesses" -i do not mean especially PLEV-, they are slowing down the progress of Electric movement/locomotion/last mile devices!

Even nowadays in nearly the hole world you can drive a bycicle with a nice powerfull electric Motor of your choice......

here in Germany, when it has more power than 250Watt(sic!) or when it is faster as 25kmh, or it functions without pedal assistence -> you Need a number plate and extra insurance, and an e-bike which can go faster as 40kmh is even totally forbidden!

So-Hip Hip Hurray, give me even some more regulations ;-)  When we Europeans are under PLEV...we can look back in this Forum and remember how much fun we had -for example- with the newest MSuper V3 or ACM or KS18 or KS16 or V8 or V5F+ (which are all not allowed on the streets anymore then!!!) and remember the good old days.....

Rant over :-)

Dont shoot to hard on me...i know a Kind of Regulation has to be-but this one i find way overshooted!

No one likes to shoot hard on you. Your beloved "old" KS/ GW are having a Lifecycle. Be prepared to change the EUCs in the right moment. I'm sure we'll see new players in the market and/ or ODM versions of EUCs. 

From the conversations I had the last months over here in Europe financing of development of technology is not the problem at all. The Chinese EUC business lives from week to week/ month to month by today. A lot of developments are having external financing or cooperations. This will change for manufacturers if they come up with PLEV compliant vehicles. 

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13 hours ago, Berus said:

@EricGhost@OliverH

No matter what certifications/regulation will be required. The main problem is : if  this PLEV regulation is  made to authorize euc on the road this mean for italy that you neeed to pay plate,insurance and any other tax that politicians will invent to make cash for them and insurance company.

I started to sell EUC because is a green vehicle,useful in big city and I hope that it become more popular in Italy.Of course if I need to pay 400/500 euro /year I prefer to go back to using my old diesel.

No plate till 25 kmph like electric bikes, an ebike over 25 kmph need to be registered as scooter. I never saw police check on ebike conformity btw ;) 

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10 hours ago, EricGhost said:

No plate till 25 kmph like electric bikes, an ebike over 25 kmph need to be registered as scooter. I never saw police check on ebike conformity btw ;) 

True ! But I'm afraid because our politicians have  a lot fantasy and always needed money ..so when they will see a new vehicle category, new business for them are equal to new tax opportunity.

Back to redundancy

A question : Why two battery/BMs pack in parallel aren't already a  kind of redundancy ?

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9 minutes ago, Berus said:

 

Back to redundancy

A question : Why two battery/BMs pack in parallel aren't already a  kind of redundancy ?

Because as some are used by now both packs are out of service if on fails - one needs a bit more logic to let the not failed keep on supplying power to the wheel.

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2 hours ago, Chriull said:

Because as some are used by now both packs are out of service if on fails - one needs a bit more logic to let the not failed keep on supplying power to the wheel.

And both go on one Y connector. If this fails...

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1 hour ago, OliverH said:

And both go on one Y connector. If this fails...

Exactly but that's an easy fix with reverse flow protection on each discharge port of separate battery packs.

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If 25 km/h is the max speed limit then we will get a cruising speed around 18 km/h being left in the dust by electric scooters and skateboards. A safe tiltback curve will need at least 25% speed boost reserve so it will start tilting back at 20 km/h max. People will be pushing the tiltback and with constantly tilting and rotating pedals comes reduced balance, control and comfort, more difficulty braking and slipping down off the pedals when hitting bumps. I see no way of safely taking over control from the rider to limit the speed of an EUC other than forced tiltback? Also how will downhill slopes be handled?

As an example a 25% speed reserve for tiltback would make the Msuper v3 start tilting back at 29 km/h with the max angle reached at 36 km/h. (Last warning alarm activates at 36-37 km/h)

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5 hours ago, nomad said:

If 25 km/h is the max speed limit then we will get a cruising speed around 18 km/h being left in the dust by electric scooters and skateboards. A safe tiltback curve will need at least 25% speed boost reserve so it will start tilting back at 20 km/h max. People will be pushing the tiltback and with constantly tilting and rotating pedals comes reduced balance, control and comfort, more difficulty braking and slipping down off the pedals when hitting bumps. I see no way of safely taking over control from the rider to limit the speed of an EUC other than forced tiltback? Also how will downhill slopes be handled?

As an example a 25% speed reserve for tiltback would make the Msuper v3 start tilting back at 29 km/h with the max angle reached at 36 km/h. (Last warning alarm activates at 36-37 km/h)

@OliverH- i really hope, that the 25 km/h speed limit will be handled like the max speed advertised from ninebot with their one e+. The max speed is the speed which can be safely driven _before_ the tiltback kicks in! So the EUCs under the PLEV regulation could drive a bit faster than the 25 km/h but only to establish the tiltback assuming that no rider drive with the not really comfortable tiltback active.

From my personal experience (first EUC was an NB One E+ with 20km/h, now a KS16 with 30km/h) i can say that 20 km/h is too slow - all bikes overtake one whilst riding. This feels dangerous while in a city with heavy bike traffic. With the KS16 an 30 km/h i feel "safe" on the bike lanes and it is a very comfortable upper speed limit for me. I'd assume i could get used to 25 km/h with a small reserve (already with slight tilt-back).

Somehow exactly this topic is a bit problematic for a regulation/directive - at one side it shall ensure a maximum speed as limit so injuries/dangers from accidents stay within same reasonable "limit", but on the other side a power (speed) reserve of the EUC is _essential_ for safety. If an EUC strictly cuts of at 25 km/h one will see endless faceplants of riders driving this PLEV regulated EUCs! An EUC _can,shall,and is not allowed_ to cut the speed like a "moped"/e-bike can.

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5 minutes ago, Chriull said:

but on the other side a power (speed) reserve of the EUC is _essential_ for safety

right, but power reserve does not equate to speed reserve.

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4 minutes ago, MoNo said:

right, but power reserve does not equate to speed reserve.

Right. "speed/power" or "speed (power)" reserve would have been a better way of writing it. Speed reserve is needed and for this a power reserve a basis...

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6 minutes ago, Chriull said:

@OliverH- i really hope, that the 25 km/h speed limit will be handled like the max speed advertised from ninebot with their one e+. The max speed is the speed which can be safely driven _before_ the tiltback kicks in! So the EUCs under the PLEV regulation could drive a bit faster than the 25 km/h but only to establish the tiltback assuming that no rider drive with the not really comfortable tiltback active.

From my personal experience (first EUC was an NB One E+ with 20km/h, now a KS16 with 30km/h) i can say that 20 km/h is too slow - all bikes overtake one whilst riding. This feels dangerous while in a city with heavy bike traffic. With the KS16 an 30 km/h i feel "safe" on the bike lanes and it is a very comfortable upper speed limit for me. I'd assume i could get used to 25 km/h with a small reserve (already with slight tilt-back).

Somehow exactly this topic is a bit problematic for a regulation/directive - at one side it shall ensure a maximum speed as limit so injuries/dangers from accidents stay within same reasonable "limit", but on the other side a power (speed) reserve of the EUC is _essential_ for safety. If an EUC strictly cuts of at 25 km/h one will see endless faceplants of riders driving this PLEV regulated EUCs! An EUC _can,shall,and is not allowed_ to cut the speed like a "moped"/e-bike can.

25 km/h is max allowed design speed by PLEV. We should take that and work for an additional category for those who want to go faster. PLEV currently deals with 6 km/h and 25 km/h devices. More than 25 km/h is competition (private area/ sports competition). I'm the cruiser type, for me 20/ 25 km/h is enough. Legalising 25 km/h right now with PLEV lifts our EUC to an other level of maturity/ safety.

If we like to legalise 30/ 35 km/h than this will have higher requirement. Probably more brake power and more usecases on behaviour handling. We can use the reputation of PLEV to establish other vehicle classes/ categories. Let's do it step by step.

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If you think 20 km/h is a too slow cruising speed then don't buy an EUC covered by PLEV, it's too bad but that's how I think it's going to be. While 25 km/h is fast enough for most including me on a regular basis, a lot of riders will simply go faster all the time constantly abusing the tiltback reserve and you know it.

A cooler way would be an alarm warning system giving you 5 seconds to slow down or else... cut off for you!

http://youtu.be/9jK-NcRmVcw

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2 hours ago, OliverH said:

25 km/h is max allowed design speed by PLEV. We should take that and work for an additional category for those who want to go faster. PLEV currently deals with 6 km/h and 25 km/h devices. More than 25 km/h is competition (private area/ sports competition). I'm the cruiser type, for me 20/ 25 km/h is enough. Legalising 25 km/h right now with PLEV lifts our EUC to an other level of maturity/ safety.

There's a good argument to be made that they need to be able to keep up to Cycles in the bike lane, which would be 30kph max cruising speed.

On 10/13/2016 at 6:49 AM, KingSong69 said:

here in Germany, when it has more power than 250Watt(sic!) or when it is faster as 25kmh, or it functions without pedal assistence -> you Need a number plate and extra insurance, and an e-bike which can go faster as 40kmh is even totally forbidden!

There's an Industry Insider eBike monthly magazine I get. In last month's issue, there was an article about how some manufacturers were looking to modernize the 250Wh/25kph 2002/24/EC spec, which is now 14 years old, the motion was immediately shot down. That's the problem with legislation, that once a statute/motion has been passed, it takes heaven & earth to bring into line with technological realities. Witness the legislative efficiency in England where the 1835 Highway Act is THE reason the menace of the Hoverboards were relegated to marginalized spaces.

I think something along of the lines of 25kph out of the box, with a Driver's License verification unlock process to allow up to 30kph is a sane & workable. There ought also to be a quick-set 'Profile Mode' feature in the App that sets the Wheel to Pavement Use (6kph), City Use (25kph), & Unrestricted Mode (30kph). If you want to change the mode, you'll have to enter a pin.  

 

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2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

There's a good argument to be made that they need to be able to keep up to Cycles in the bike lane, which would be 30kph max cruising speed.

There's an Industry Insider eBike monthly magazine I get. In last month's issue, there was an article about how some manufacturers were looking to modernize the 250Wh/25kph 2002/24/EC spec, which is now 14 years old, the motion was immediately shot down. That's the problem with legislation, that once a statute/motion has been passed, it takes heaven & earth to bring into line with technological realities. Witness the legislative efficiency in England where the 1835 Highway Act is THE reason the menace of the Hoverboards were relegated to marginalized spaces.

I think something along of the lines of 25kph out of the box, with a Driver's License verification unlock process to allow up to 30kph is a sane & workable. There ought also to be a quick-set 'Profile Mode' feature in the App that sets the Wheel to Pavement Use (6kph), City Use (25kph), & Unrestricted Mode (30kph). If you want to change the mode, you'll have to enter a pin.  

 

@JasonMcNeil, I like your idea and totally concur with the need for upgrade speed. My V5F+ cannot keep up with the cycle Nazies on the bike lane, however I am able to pass by them with smile going uphill while I'm holding and enjoy by Starbucks...:D

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For some reason the most frequently expressed opinion seem to be that bicycles passing EUCs is dangerous while EUCs passing bicycles is enjoyable, with the logical consequence that EUCs should better not go slower than bicycles. I am sensing some unexplainable bias here :ph34r:

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