Begode Extreme 2400wh: 134V, 16", Suspension, 77lb

[jimjam.nyc]

37 minutes ago, SoleCycle said:

Well @jimjam.nyc, there doesn't seem to be any 16" trail wheel on the market that don't have some significant disappointments from large groups of riders. The people here talking up the Extreme have a personal preference for a feature set that isn't as off-putting as the other options. Patton, T4, and V14 lovers are either doing the same thing or just don't care about some features or lack thereof. Are there any 16" wheels other than those that can genuinely be called a trail wheel? While street wheel options are starting to fill out and accommodate people's needs, pickings are disappointingly slim for agility seeking trail riders.

All of your points about the wheels are absolutely legit. But it's a lame to walk into someones party and proceed to tell everyone how dumb the party is. I think we're dealing with the realities of some shitty design flaws as best we can. I agree that it sucks that we have to mod just to get it to what's advertised. But as far as I can tell, all other wheels that claim trail agility are also failing in significant areas. The Extreme at least, appears to be the only wheel that can actually achieve what's advertised with a couple relatively easy mods.

The others don't even have that. There's no easy mod one can do for the Patton or V14 to give it an extra 50% of suspension travel. That is my personal feature bias that leaves me with nothing left but the Extreme. And I feel like I'm disappointingly settling here because Begode repeatedly fails at mechanical engineering and I'm tired of that crap when all they need to do is hire a couple decent mechanical engineers. While the Extreme is certainly an iterative improvement, it still seem to be full of pervasive oversights and lack of calculation. They are painstakingly evolving by trial and error instead of educated intelligence and modern product testing methods.

Yet here I am, probably going to buy it soon because it's the only one users consistently report handles wonderfully (after mods) and isn't stuck with street specs on suspension (after mods).

 

Sorry if my opinions offended anyone here. I didn't say the extreme was a bad wheel. My comment was more of a response to the constant posts of people trying to convince people this is a "great" wheel. 

Everything from just get a third party linkage (with multiple versions and geometries to choose from), to well its an awesome street wheel... literally contradicting all of the in your face posts from before launch about how this is a trail only wheel not to compare it to street wheels.. 

I personally never bashed this wheel. I always thought it was a pretty good wheel. My observations are more about the talk around this wheel vs the actual wheel.

All I really said was I am confused why people are constantly defending it. Its the type of wheel that if it appeals to you (like it does you) those people will buy it. The rest would probably be a hard pass. So I just don't understand why people are still trying to convince people to purchase this wheel. Not sure there will be too many customers to gain at this point outside of the people who really want it.  

Maybe I am missing it on this forum.. But i dont see people still trying so hard to sway people to get a patton, mini or a V14. The discussion is more about the wheel (good and bad). Usually the convincing people happens during the pre-order stages and dies out after the wheel becomes widely available. Especially with all the new releases these days.

I honestly wasn't coming into any party to poop. 

[SoleCycle]

14 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I didn't say the extreme was a bad wheel.

Very true, you did wrap up with this at the end.

3 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

It seems to just be a pretty good 16 inch wheel right in line with all the other pretty good 16inch wheels. 

 

17 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Maybe I am missing it on this forum.. But i dont see people still trying so hard to sway people to get a patton, mini or a V14. The discussion is more about the wheel (good and bad). Usually the convincing people happens during the pre-order stages and dies out after the wheel becomes widely available. Especially with all the new releases these days.

I honestly wasn't coming into any party to poop. 

I hear ya, and thanks for reply and elaboration. I kinda feel like Patton is a bit cult like in their praise though. Maybe similar to what you are perceiving here. V14 is a whole bunch of cautious and tempered hope. Too early to get evangelical.

I think the way you said it just triggered my own frustrations about the carrot on a stick kind of situation we're in with trail wheels at this time. I'll own that. Pardon my salty response.

Obviously I'm not one of the people pushing that this is "a great wheel!" I have pretty good sense for the potential for these wheels and I hope the wait isn't too much longer for the manufacturers to dial in some greatness. Stuff is definitely happening by all the companies that gives me hope. I'm just so ready to get my hands on C40 torque now, and having to dump a few grand into something that really should be a whole lot better by design leaves me frustrated.

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, SoleCycle said:

Obviously I'm not one of the people pushing that this is "a great wheel!"

Have you ever ridden a Sherman S or Patton?

I would venture to guess that most people who got a chance to try one out would concur that the suspension of these wheels stood out, hands down, given what we had seen prior these the Sherman S releases of suspension wheels.

After the first generation of suspension wheels came the S22, Hero/Master/EX20.

The S22 suspension out-of-the-box was just plain bad.

The Master suspension was also bad.

Owners had to spend time and money to get them to work better.

Aftermarket roller sliders saved the day for the S22.

Aftermarket linkage and shock saved the day for the Master and derivatives.

The Sherman S and not much later Patton were breaths of fresh air.

Very often I find myself excited for a particular wheel only to be disappointed after trying out the wheel in person.

The Patton was reversed. It was way better than what I thought it would be. Many others thought the same.

There is no substitute for experience. If you haven't already done so, try out the different wheels. The experience would be an eye opener.

[CrabChampion]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

The Patton was reversed. It was way better than what I thought it would be. Many others thought the same.

maybe in the timing of when I tried that wheel but it seemed overhyped to me. I could see what the reviews were saying, but it was blown way out of proportion. The suspension was 66lbs and I could still bottom it out at 140lbs rider weight, but also it felt pogosticky on smaller bumps. Wasnt my wheel and not setup perfectly for me, but thats how I felt. The ergonomics were also awful. The lynx looks like a refined version of the patton and fixes all the ergonomic issues I had with it. 

On the other hand, the negative reviews of the extreme made me quite impressed with it. It was in the heat of everyone talking about chooch cutting it out. I was quite suprised how capable the extreme was and how far begode has come in terms of quality. A local guy here got caught in a huge downpour and his extreme was completely rained on and survived just fine. Whereas a patton got caught in rain and the top screen was ruined.

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

Owners had to spend time and money to get them to work better

This however is true. I will admit I am biased and love the tinkering aspect to get a wheel exactly how you want. The personalization of these wheels is one of the reasons I love this hobby. I see alot of sherman-s out there that all look nearly identical 

But having a perfectly working wheel out of the box is something this market needs

Edited January 15 by CrabChampion

[techyiam]

41 minutes ago, CrabChampion said:

maybe in the timing of when I tried that wheel but it seemed overhyped to me. I could see what the reviews were saying, but it was blown way out of proportion. The suspension was 66lbs and I could still bottom it out at 140lbs rider weight, but also it felt pogosticky on smaller bumps. Wasnt my wheel and not setup perfectly for me, but thats how I felt. The ergonomics were also awful. The lynx looks like a refined version of the patton and fixes all the ergonomic issues I had with it. 

Fair enough.

 

That was one of the points I wanted to make. And that is a rider needs to test out a wheel to have a better idea how a wheel rides. Spec's and reviews can't tell you that.

It sounded like the refined and butter smooth suspension action of the Patton was not that important to you.

It doesn't sound like you had the suspension dialled-in, and you like a firmer suspension?

The Lynx did improve upon a number of things over the Patton. I didn't notice the ergo's difference, but I came off from an Abrams though.

 

For a Begode, the Extreme had a solid feel, and has that mini EX30 feel to it. It was nice.

The suspension action wasn't as smooth as the S19, S22 Pro, Patton, nor the Lynx, though to me.

 

For me, the Patton and Lynx had a more natural feel to it while riding. But I felt I could have gotten used to the Extreme too.

If the Extreme has a proper linkage design, and a decent slider, I could be more interested.

 

[Ronin Ryder]

6 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Sorry if my opinions offended anyone here. I didn't say the extreme was a bad wheel. My comment was more of a response to the constant posts of people trying to convince people this is a "great" wheel. 

Everything from just get a third party linkage (with multiple versions and geometries to choose from), to well its an awesome street wheel... literally contradicting all of the in your face posts from before launch about how this is a trail only wheel not to compare it to street wheels.. 

I personally never bashed this wheel. I always thought it was a pretty good wheel. My observations are more about the talk around this wheel vs the actual wheel.

All I really said was I am confused why people are constantly defending it. Its the type of wheel that if it appeals to you (like it does you) those people will buy it. The rest would probably be a hard pass. So I just don't understand why people are still trying to convince people to purchase this wheel. Not sure there will be too many customers to gain at this point outside of the people who really want it.  

Maybe I am missing it on this forum.. But i dont see people still trying so hard to sway people to get a patton, mini or a V14. The discussion is more about the wheel (good and bad). Usually the convincing people happens during the pre-order stages and dies out after the wheel becomes widely available. Especially with all the new releases these days.

I honestly wasn't coming into any party to poop. 

Personally im not defending the Extreme, or any wheel. I just report ride experiences. 

[techyiam]

12 minutes ago, Ronin Ryder said:

Personally im not defending the Extreme, or any wheel. I just report ride experiences. 

I appreciated your sharing of your riding experiences on different wheels.

It provides a good data point for the Extreme in NYC traffic.

[CrabChampion]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

It doesn't sound like you had the suspension dialled-in, and you like a firmer suspension?

It wasnt dialed in for my weight. I am a middle of the road suspension type guy. The super plush suspension feel I dont like, but I know guys who have their suspension even firmer than I like that I am not a fan of. What was weird about the patton is that it exhibited the worst characteristics of both plush and firm suspension feel. It was mushy and bottomed out easily, but also bumps would pogostick and lift the tire off the ground. It honestly felt like a better v11 suspension to me (which isnt saying much)

 

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

The suspension action wasn't as smooth as the S19, S22 Pro, Patton, nor the Lynx, though to me

I still think the S22 with ningning sliders feels the best to me. The ningning sliders do provide a noticeable difference to even the s22 pro sliders that come stock. I think that setup is even better than all the sherman-s and patton suspensions ive tried.

Begode suspensions tend to land on the "yea its alright" scale for me. Probably cuz I weigh pretty much the same as any begode tester you see on video. Their suspensions were literally designed around people my weight.

 

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

If the Extreme has a proper linkage design, and a decent slider, I could be more interested.

The sliders on the extreme, EX30, master, etc, works fine. Its a dog cheap solution (chrome coated tubes) but pretty decent as far as friction goes. They do need some lubing occasionally, but not nearly as much maintenance as the S22 with bearing slider design. The linkages, yea they are bad. I dunno why begode just doesnt copy a third party linkage design into their next wheel. I vaguely heard something about kingsong having the patent to the scissor linkage style? Makes sense since I think the S22 is the best of the linkage design wheels out there imo

[techyiam]

18 hours ago, CrabChampion said:

It wasnt dialed in for my weight. I am a middle of the road suspension type guy. The super plush suspension feel I dont like, but I know guys who have their suspension even firmer than I like that I am not a fan of. What was weird about the patton is that it exhibited the worst characteristics of both plush and firm suspension feel. It was mushy and bottomed out easily, but also bumps would pogostick and lift the tire off the ground. It honestly felt like a better v11 suspension to me (which isnt saying much)

The suspension travel on the Patton is on the short side, for off-road.

Therefore, if you don't want to bottom out, the suspension would need to be setup on the firmer side.

Any suspension can be setup to be plush and bottom out. For example, my S22 with Hou Ningning roller sliders, can bottom out going over speed bumps, even with the full 130 mm suspension travel set to full travel. My weight is similar to yours. I put in a 300 lbs spring. And I adjusted both damping settings to minimum.

However, that doesn't take away the smooth suspension action of Patton's hydraulic suspension struts.

18 hours ago, CrabChampion said:

I still think the S22 with ningning sliders feels the best to me. The ningning sliders do provide a noticeable difference to even the s22 pro sliders that come stock. I think that setup is even better than all the sherman-s and patton suspensions ive tried.

I have an S22 with Hou Ningning roller sliders. It was a vast improvement over stock, since the stock sliders did not act like sliders. They acted more like glue blocks. Just crazy bad.

However, the suspension action of the Hou Ningning sliders were still not up to par with the Veteran's, IMO. However, after I lubed the roller bearings on the Hou Ningning sliders, the sliders really became free to slide, losing almost all its stiction. I also had to redo all the pin joints in the linkage. With this done, I think my modded S22 was quite close to the Veteran's suspension smoothness. One of these days, I have to find a Patton or Lynx to compare with.

18 hours ago, CrabChampion said:

The sliders on the extreme, EX30, master, etc, works fine. Its a dog cheap solution (chrome coated tubes) but pretty decent as far as friction goes. They do need some lubing occasionally, but not nearly as much maintenance as the S22 with bearing slider design. The linkages, yea they are bad. I dunno why begode just doesnt copy a third party linkage design into their next wheel. I vaguely heard something about kingsong having the patent to the scissor linkage style? Makes sense since I think the S22 is the best of the linkage design wheels out there imo

Interestingly enough, I just saw a Youtube video showing Begode sliders sticking. The person in the video figured out the reason for this is because when the pedal hanger clamps onto the bottom end of the stanchions, the stanchions deforms, forcing the tube to be out-of-round. So when the stanchions slide through the round bushing, significant amounts of stiction would be generated. He resolved it by putting in shims in the gap of the clamping pedal hangers, to limit the amount of clamping pressure on the stanchions.

Edited January 16 by techyiam

[ORDO NOVUS]

As i said earlier, there is a person that is developing right now stanchions with better sliding systems that the stock one - for all seasons usage. If that will be finished - extreme with its 130mm will be at the same level , where now patton standing, sharing 1st/2nd place with it.

so just wait a bit. everything will be fine

[Planemo]

19 hours ago, CrabChampion said:

The sliders on the extreme, EX30, master, etc, works fine. Its a dog cheap solution (chrome coated tubes) 

Not being pedantic but they are actually uncoated stainless steel.

10 hours ago, techyiam said:

Interestingly enough, I just saw a Youtube video showing Begode sliders sticking. The person in the video figured out the reason for this is because when the pedal hanger clamps onto the bottom end of the stanchions

Out of interest do you have a link to that? Don't think I've seen it, and as I will be replacing my hangers soon I could maybe kill two birds with one stone. But if it was helped with a shim, it would have to be damn accurately sized because the difference between tight and ovalizing the tube would be minimal!

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Out of interest do you have a link to that? Don't think I've seen it, and as I will be replacing my hangers soon I could maybe kill two birds with one stone. But if it was helped with a shim, it would have to be damn accurately sized because the difference between tight and ovalizing the tube would be minimal!

Time-stamped.

 

[Planemo]

6 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Time-stamped.

Cheers for that, good vid. All virtually identical to the EX30 too. I'm not convinced that the amount of stiction due to the hanger was enough to notice when on full compression as theres a helluva lot of spring force pulling the wheel back up, but I agree that working on all the stiction areas as a whole, adds up. I was going to say the motor width spacing is just as critical, if not more so but he had a grip on that too by the end.

I've had the motor out of mine and the operation isn't actually that bad but I am in no doubt that some would be a lot worse, theres just too much margin for error with the system Begode uses because such small tolerances in the various (too many) areas could make or break the system as a whole.

[techyiam]

9 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I've had the motor out of mine and the operation isn't actually that bad but I am in no doubt that some would be a lot worse, theres just too much margin for error with the system Begode uses because such small tolerances in the various (too many) areas could make or break the system as a whole.

+1.

And that's the problem with Begode sliders. The variance is too random. 

[techyiam]

17 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I was going to say the motor width spacing is just as critical, if not more so but he had a grip on that too by the end.

+1.

Incidentally, the S22 has some adjustments there too. I aligned mine.

Details matter.

[Rawnei]

8 hours ago, Planemo said:

Cheers for that, good vid. All virtually identical to the EX30 too. I'm not convinced that the amount of stiction due to the hanger was enough to notice when on full compression as theres a helluva lot of spring force pulling the wheel back up, but I agree that working on all the stiction areas as a whole, adds up. I was going to say the motor width spacing is just as critical, if not more so but he had a grip on that too by the end.

I've had the motor out of mine and the operation isn't actually that bad but I am in no doubt that some would be a lot worse, theres just too much margin for error with the system Begode uses because such small tolerances in the various (too many) areas could make or break the system as a whole.

I have learned from my various wheels that any small amount of stiction will be felt as degraded suspension, it will cause movement of the suspension to feel more sluggish and therefor harsher, but of course at the start of the stroke in the downward direction will be felt the most.

[EMA]

10 hours ago, Planemo said:

Cheers for that, good vid. All virtually identical to the EX30 too. I'm not convinced that the amount of stiction due to the hanger was enough to notice when on full compression as theres a helluva lot of spring force pulling the wheel back up, but I agree that working on all the stiction areas as a whole, adds up. I was going to say the motor width spacing is just as critical, if not more so but he had a grip on that too by the end.

I've had the motor out of mine and the operation isn't actually that bad but I am in no doubt that some would be a lot worse, theres just too much margin for error with the system Begode uses because such small tolerances in the various (too many) areas could make or break the system as a whole.

it's something similar to what happen if you over-tight the side screws on top of the sliders, but to feel this kind of small stiction you need at least to remove the shock

[Planemo]

7 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I have learned from my various wheels that any small amount of stiction will be felt as degraded suspension,

Oh I agree, I am massively into reducing stiction, I did a huge amount of work on my MTB to eradicate it including re-sizing the fork slider bushings. All I was suggesting is that the Master guy could still push the (albeit sticky) bush down with his fingers and so at full compression I don't think it would make a huge improvement to shim/resize it. Absolutely no harm in doing so though if one is looking for the best possible scenario.

5 hours ago, EMA said:

it's something similar to what happen if you over-tight the side screws on top of the sliders, but to feel this kind of small stiction you need at least to remove the shock

And bottom of the sliders! Yeah all of mine are backed out totally and the only stiction left I can find is in the last 20mm or so of travel so it's either ovalized tubes from the hangers like the Master video or the motor spacing could do with tweeking a bit. But as I alluded to above, you can't notice it at all when on the wheel - I can get it to compress fully and there doesn't appear to be any stiction on the return but it's clearly there as I felt it when the wheel was apart. It's all degrees of stiction of course, some are terrible, some are OK, but mine was 'good enough' which is why I actually re-assembled the wheel as-is and decided to maybe fiddle with it another day when I'm bored. My MTB on the other hand annoyed me and that was with some very decent forks to start with. I put the difference between the EUC and MTB down to the fact that the MTB forks are far more delicately sprung and damped thus it's much easier to notice stiction than on the EUC. With the MTB I worked to get the uppers to drop under their own weight which is about as good as you're gonna get without introducing any slop. Added to SKF seals, the forks are waay better than they were stock and I don't think it's possible to get them any better without switching to coil internals. 

[EMA]

 

[Planemo]

Yep I'd say thats pretty bang-on! We just need some ballraced linkage pivots now!

[FunTech4Real]

Funny how much you guys like to chat about me 😂

[Vince.Fab]

On 1/17/2024 at 7:56 AM, Planemo said:

Yep I'd say thats pretty bang-on! We just need some ballraced linkage pivots now!

Sadly there isn't any room to put ball races on the frame top pivot or slider crossbar pivot.  My linkage has a huge ball bearing center pivot that makes a pretty big difference, especially when taking all the slop out of the suspension.  Ive also been prototyping and experimenting with PTFE, Delrin and brass tight tolerance bushings. 

 

For shit and giggles, here's a fun winter project.  I fit a Fox Float X2 (high/low rebound and compression) and am working on putting together a datalogger to see travel/accel of the suspension to further aid in tuning. 

Edited January 19 by Vince.Fab

[Punxatawneyjoe]

33 minutes ago, Vince.Fab said:

I fit a Fox Float X2

Very nice i was thinking about that shock for the adventure. Be interested in what you think of it.

[Taras]

 

[Planemo]

6 hours ago, Vince.Fab said:

 PTFE, Delrin and brass tight tolerance bushings. 

Yeah be interesting to hear which of these suits best. I did find some low friction PTFE lined steel flange bushings, not cheap but would be a direct replacement (ie easy) for the stock ones. I think the stock ones are PTFE lined too, but no doubt are the cheapest possible ones they could get.

6 hours ago, Vince.Fab said:

For shit and giggles, here's a fun winter project.  I fit a Fox Float X2

Be careful, been loads of issues with X2's blowing out seals. Fox are aware and supposedly modified the new ones, I think they are doing a free swop-out for affected shocks but theres been a few reports of the new ones failing too. Shame cos I like Fox but the X2 does seem to be a bit of a lemon.

Given your considerable efforts and work in getting the best friction free setup I'm surprised you didnt go for the DHX2 coil