PSA: Inmotion V13 alarms and tiltback combined design flaw makes it unsafe to ride at high speed. Inmotion working on a fix

[Punxatawneyjoe]

2 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

You have the inmotion analysis with fixes before your very eyes, what more do you need?

I don't disagree that they came up with a solution for the people who ignore all warnings and force a wheel beyond it's rated specifications. Is it a good one, probably not in this case because the rider never heard the first set of beeps and forced a physical tilt back which is crazy. So far iv,e already experienced the v13 beeps and tilt back and they are unmistakable , the same as the v11. The data shows the wheel was overpowered then it tried to protect itself and the rider to no avail because the warnings signs were ignored and forced past. If i was inmotion i would have said there's always gonna be one in the crowd who you just can't stop.

[Rawnei]

2 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I don't disagree that they came up with a solution for the people who ignore all warnings and force a wheel beyond it's rated specifications. Is it a good one, probably not in this case because the rider never heard the first set of beeps and forced a physical tilt back which is crazy. So far iv,e already experienced the v13 beeps and tilt back and they are unmistakable , the same as the v11. The data shows the wheel was overpowered then it tried to protect itself and the rider to no avail because the warnings signs were ignored and forced past. If i was inmotion i would have said there's always gonna be one in the crowd who you just can't stop.

Improvements in safety features benefits us all regardless of what you think of the riders behaviour, if anything at least he exposed this flaw and it did other inmotion wheel owners such as yourself a service.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

2 minutes ago, supercurio said:

but they made the tiltback also imperceptible to many

as a v11 and v13 owner, recently hitting the 35mph temporary limit. i find the tilt back unmistakable. It literately beeps and tilts the pedals back. If you don't notice the pedals tilting against your lean under your feet, i don't know what to say about that. I've hit it many times on my v11 .

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 minute ago, Rawnei said:

flaw

Remind me what the "flaw" is again? Didn't the wheel warn the rider in 2 different ways? Gimme a break here. A few years ago riders just wanted to be able to consistently stay upright. Now people are like " hold my hand and then hold it again and if i fall it's your fault" this is exactly what is wrong with an entire generation. 0 personal responsibility. "I ignored 2 warnings but there should have been a 3rd" Have you experienced the v13 tilt back? I have, you would have to be oblivious to the world not to notice it. And i can hear the beeps coming from the wheel from inside my helmet. I'm not against more safety but there will always be the person who bypasses all of it.

[supercurio]

10 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I don't disagree that they came up with a solution for the people who ignore all warnings and force a wheel beyond it's rated specifications.

There is a misunderstanding here, both on the evidence shown and Inmotion confirmation.

There is a critical fault fault in the warning system currently, which must be addressed. Inmotion acknowledged it and committed to do so.
It is the same critical flaw I reported 2 years ago.

10 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Is it a good one, probably not in this case because the rider never heard the first set of beeps and forced a physical tilt back which is crazy. So far iv,e already experienced the v13 beeps and tilt back and they are unmistakable , the same as the v11.

Without knowing about it, you likely experienced a different type of beep (same beep but different trigger) which is not affected by the 5 seconds delay.
By the way, it is not affected by the 5s delay because of the initial report 2 years ago.

But, an oversight happened and the 5s delay was only removed for one type of alarm trigger (related to speed), and unfortunately not the trigger related to current limits that he experienced.

Then while the wheel should have kept beeping insistently, instead it remained quiet and the rider crashed.
That, compounded with a too subtle tiltback as previously discussed.

 

10 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

The data shows the wheel was overpowered then it tried to protect itself and the rider to no avail because the warnings signs were ignored and forced past. If i was inmotion i would have said there's always gonna be one in the crowd who you just can't stop.

Once again, the warning signs were not ignored. The only one that really works at speed today is LOUD beeps (tiltback is problematic at high speed due to its effect on balance).

And the wheel stopped beeping instead!

[supercurio]

18 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

as a v11 and v13 owner, recently hitting the 35mph temporary limit. i find the tilt back unmistakable. It literately beeps and tilts the pedals back. If you don't notice the pedals tilting against your lean under your feet, i don't know what to say about that. I've hit it many times on my v11 .

That's a good point, tiltback behaves differently at 35 mph than it does near maximum speed.

It is programmed to be less aggressive near top speed to prevent scaring or destabilising the rider and resulting in a crash. It was the same on S22 which directly caused multiple overlean crash at max speed as riders could not hear the beeps nor feel the tiltback.

It's an industry-wide problem that needs solving.

Edited February 17, 2023 by supercurio

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 minute ago, supercurio said:

That's a good point, tiltback behaves differently at 35 mph than it does near maximum speed.

It's the same tilt back as i get on the v11 when pushing it to its max amp. it's max speed etc. same one. I have hit them all.  I guess we can agree to disagree on this topic because you apparently feel like 10 beeps that nobody hears is better than one. And you also feel like tilt back, which most wheels don't have from what i understand is flawed because it's not aggressive enough at high speed where i for one don't want it any more aggressive.

[novazeus]

this is 93+kph. maybe the rider that crashed has a defective wheel or more likely, this guy knows how to ride a wheel.(pls cover ur ears if foul language hurts u).

https://youtube.com/shorts/dBZzj_bEidI?feature=share

[Bizra6ot]

Yeah he was luckier he was able to reach the 2nd beeps with 5 seconds of interval
 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Bizra6ot

[Rawnei]

31 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Remind me what the "flaw" is again? Didn't the wheel warn the rider in 2 different ways? Gimme a break here. A few years ago riders just wanted to be able to consistently stay upright. Now people are like " hold my hand and then hold it again and if i fall it's your fault" this is exactly what is wrong with an entire generation. 0 personal responsibility. "I ignored 2 warnings but there should have been a 3rd" Have you experienced the v13 tilt back? I have, you would have to be oblivious to the world not to notice it. And i can hear the beeps coming from the wheel from inside my helmet. I'm not against more safety but there will always be the person who bypasses all of it.

Your ranting says more about you rather than the things you're ranting about.

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, Bizra6ot said:

Yeah he was luckier he was able to reach the 2 beeps with 5 seconds of interval
 

 

I saw this video, honestly it was hard to watch someone doing speed runs with zero gear and next to cars - similar conditions to what already lead to a rider death except a lot faster.

So in terms of differences:

On alerts, OMGitsRAAZ was listening to beeps since he was accelerating towards max speed. The rider who overleaned didn't expect beeps at 71.2 km/h (caused by a current threshold alarm due to the rapid acceleration).
OMGitsRAAZ is not wearing a helmet which leads to lower wind noise compared to Meriku's config, wearing a helmet without visor - which amplifies the wind noise dramatically. That way, OMGitsRAAZ was able to hear the 2 beeps and react immediately to it with deceleration.

Edit: I missed something very important here pointed out by @Bizra6ot, follow up here:

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by supercurio

[Punxatawneyjoe]

10 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Your ranting says more about you rather than the things you're ranting about.

good answer. It's amazing to me that inmotion a company that actually attempting to do something about build quality and saftey brings out the pack of hungry wolves.

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Punxatawneyjoe
an aftrethought

[supercurio]

@Punxatawneyjoe it's great that things work for you as expected.

Inmotion already completed its root cause analysis which matches the community findings, acknowledged the problem and will address it.
And that's the best response that could be in this context.

Please refrain from turning the discussion into an argument by continuously contradicting Inmotion, this is counterproductive.

Edited February 17, 2023 by supercurio

[novazeus]

14 minutes ago, supercurio said:

OMGitsRAAZ is not wearing a helmet which leads to lower wind noise compared to Meriku's config, wearing a helmet without visor - which amplifies the wind noise dramatically. That way, OMGitsRAAZ was able to hear the 2 beeps and react immediately to it with deceleration.

so protective gear also contributed to the rider's crash. 

 

[supercurio]

12 minutes ago, novazeus said:

so protective gear also contributed to the rider's crash. 

Sort of? A helmet with visor removed is not really protective gear anymore as it is in its certified state.
Becomes a huge wind noise problem instead, therefore unsafe to ride since we rely on alarms to not crash.

The same helmet with its visor closed (should definitely be at speed) would be vastly quieter, and typically allow to hear the beeps.

Edited February 17, 2023 by supercurio

[Bizra6ot]

36 minutes ago, supercurio said:

On alerts, OMGitsRAAZ was listening to beeps since he was accelerating towards max speed. The rider who overleaned didn't expect beeps at 71.2 km/h (caused by a current threshold alarm due to the rapid acceleration).
OMGitsRAAZ is not wearing a helmet which leads to lower wind noise compared to Meriku's config, wearing a helmet without visor - which amplifies the wind noise dramatically. That way, OMGitsRAAZ was able to hear the 2 beeps and react immediately to it with deceleration.

OMGitsRAAZ get 2x beeps one around 42mph and one 5s later around 51mph
Is'nt the 1st one be caused by a current threshold alarm due to the rapid acceleration too?

[supercurio]

1 minute ago, Bizra6ot said:

OMGitsRAAZ get 2x beeps one around 42mph and one 5s later around 51mph
Is'nt the 1st one be caused by a current threshold alarm due to the rapid acceleration too?

You're right I missed that one!
So how many seconds delay between each, let's check.

[supercurio]

@Bizra6ot 11:24 for the 42.64 mph first beep, 11:29 for the second beep!
That's the same 5 seconds, he could have crashed exactly the same 😬

Edited February 17, 2023 by supercurio

[conecones]

Is there any way to access this log locally? I cannot get Darkness bot to work (keeps freezing on attempted connection), don't have access to android device and the IM app only shows max speed/power draw, etc per ride under the Riding History.

There has been a couple instances where I thought I heard a beep but when I look down I don't see anything. The screen does flash red when beeping but its easily missed. Cruising at 75 km/h can draw over 8000W based on what's logged in the IM app, but the max current draw isn't shown, and right now there's no way to set an alarm to warn me before this 80A trigger.

[supercurio]

I changed the title to escalate the report as a warning to all V13 owners.

The V13 is not safe to ride at high speed until the firmware issue is fixed.
It's only by a combination of larger headroom and sheer luck that not more overlean crashes have happened.

As the wheel is about to get in more riders' hands, more crashes will occur.
Due to the severity, Inmotion will have to force a firmware update via their app like they did earlier for fire safety.
Probably @Seba  and @Ilya Shkolnik will help in encouraging the firmware update as well.

That's for the V13, but similar updates will be required for all previous wheels affected too.

I would suggest to pin the thread or extract some of it to make it a security announcement dear mods: @RagingGrandpa @UniVehje
I can rewrite and rephrase stuff if needed.

Edited February 17, 2023 by supercurio

[supercurio]

@Inmotion Global published their report and statement on the crash and issues related.

Let's look at it and discuss.
Spoiler: the data shows that the tiltback also failed as safety mechanism.

 

What's the problem here?

In the report, Inmotion focuses on the "Target Pitch Angle" which is the standalone tilt offset calculated by the tiltback algorithm.
Based on this number increasing up to -4.23° which is significant. Most riders would notice that!

Quote

After the wheel began tilting back, the user continued to lean forward, causing the wheel to fit further and resulting in an overpowered forward fit and crash.

But lets look at the real world tilt angle the V13 had instead: which is a combination of

• pedal mode
• sustained load or lean
• acceleration assist
• tiltback

In Form 2, in the "Pitch Angle" column we find that while the titlback target ramped up from 0 to -4.2, the real world angle:

• varied between 0° and -2°
• did not increased over time
• the average in this sequence is only -1.12° (see note below)

Form 1 and Form 2 contradict each other with different data, it is unclear which one is relevant here and a source of confusion: needs clarification.

An average of only -1.12° tiltback without a clear pattern of increase cannot be perceived by a rider as tiltback.
Therefore my conclusion here deviates from Inmotion's report. The wheel never really begun to tilt back with the rider continuing to lean forward.

Based on the video and dataset, we can confidently claim that both safety systems failed

1. beeps due to the 5s delay (reproduced by another rider in this video)
2. tiltback because negated by other systems affecting the pedal angle.

It is possible that Inmotion didn't take a whole system approach when tuning their V13 tiltback, focusing only on the "Target Pitch Angle" in isolation instead of the combined, measured "Pitch Angle" - the same methodology error observed here.

I found important to highlight this error in order to help Inmotion to improve their process for the upcoming tiltback improvement.

 

Notes:

Sharing the raw data in the report is deeply appreciated since it allows third party reviews like this one.

Sequence taken for average tilt angle calculation:

0.26
-0.08
-0.56
-0.87
-1.24
-0.95
-0.98
-0.86
-0.79
-0.9
-0.92
-1.03
-1.28
-1.39
-1.8
-1.55
-2.03
-1.77
-1.58
-1.28
-1.25
-1.76

Edited February 18, 2023 by supercurio

[Funky]

Why does the alarm go off only once every 5 seconds?

For reference my wheel are beeping and screaming at me whole time - till i stop "overburdening" the wheel. There literally aren't any quiet moment..

Alarm should be going off all the time. Not only once every 5 seconds.... In those 5 second many horrible things can happen. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Funky

[Tawpie]

2 minutes ago, Funky said:

Why does the alarm go off only once every 5 seconds?

That's the flaw

 

[Funky]

They should add 2 big buzzers at the sides of the wheel. (Under the pads.. Inside the wheel case.) I bet everyone would notice them.  

I get alarm can be not heard going that fast.. Same time weak tiltback may be missed. (Personally don't know how.. You don't feel your feet are being angled upwards?)

 

We need buzzers..

Edited February 17, 2023 by Funky

[novazeus]

i think all wheels are unsafe to ride at high speeds regardless of alarms and tiltback. i wasn't operating my wheels around humans, but i would have never forgiven myself if a wheel got away from me and hit Bob. 

a little trip down memory lane when the "community" thought i was crazy, probably still do, because of the deficiencies i pointed out about the wheels available in 2017.

what would happen if a wheel hits a person when u crash?

these were the tires used on the ks 18s and ks 16s.

and the advice given by the community was to run these tires deflated.

idk for sure, but i think this might have been @The Fat Unicyclist inspiration for his covers.

first power pads

and i still think the best protection gear is the 4" between ur ears. i think king song thought so too.