EUC EU Insurance mandotary for wheels over 25kg + power limit removed EU-wide

[Mono]

On 2/12/2023 at 6:52 PM, Funky said:

Cars don't have hard set "limits"...

They should. And they will.

On 2/12/2023 at 6:52 PM, Funky said:

Yet people are following speed laws

They don't.

[Funky]

24 minutes ago, Mono said:

They should. And they will.

They don't.

By that logic why EUC's should.  

 

Cars can go 2x faster than law allows.. Yet most people are somewhat following the law. If everyone on highway are going 10-20km/h faster. I bet you also will go the same speed. Just to keep up..

Like i said - the user can follow the law, or choose to break it. I for sure would not want a EUC's that's hard limited at 25km/h. Going everywhere same speed. I get 25km/h in city.. Less around people. But on empty straight long path/road.. Going 25km/h is just dumb.

It would be same as limiting car at 60km/h. AND you need to drive 60km/h everywhere.. Even on highway. I bet every car owner would kick you in teeth, if you ever said it's a good idea..

Edited February 13, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

25 minutes ago, Funky said:

By that logic why EUC's should.  

Because they don't have the privilege of the status quo.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Mono

[Funky]

29 minutes ago, Mono said:

Because they don't have the privilege of the status quo.

And whos fault is that.. How long have the EUC's been around now, 10 years? Yet the morons in power can't make a decent rules/laws.. Just keep on showing how pointless and idiotic are our "leaders".

It takes 5 minutes to make up somewhat decent laws.. But nah. That's not how the system works. You need to think about all the little things and how it works in the big picture.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Funky

[Cerbera]

19 minutes ago, Funky said:

It takes 5 minutes to make up somewhat decent laws..

Yes, but 5 minutes put through a filter of red tape, bureaucracy and administrative incompetence / corruption = 5 years+, the rules become more punitive and controlling, and it always ends up costing us more somehow. In a lot of ways the longer they ignore us for and just let the tiny numbers of us doing it just get on with it the better !

Edited February 13, 2023 by Cerbera

[Tasku]

I was just reading the law in its form coming from EU-level, before the national implement.

There was this ray of sunlight:
DIREKTIIVI (EU) 2021/2118

6:
Vehicles that are small, are unlikely to cause significant property damage. There is insuffident amount of proof or evidence that they can cause as much damage, as the counterpart cars and trucks.( I translated that so inaccurate possibly.) So again could be taken off..

Also 8:
So member states can witheld the mandatory insurance that are not approved in use of public roads aswell in its national lawmaking. (again not direct quote cause reading and translating) Can use other methods.

----

Based on that, maybe "right of use" for the devices such as EUC could be changed. If that does not workout, plan B would be to use the vehicles small size to take it off from mandatory insurances.

Quoting the exact parts with little help, in most countries you could ask.. And obviously if that does not help you could get tons of names in your adress and change the legality, the usual route.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Tasku

[Funky]

19 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Yes, but 5 minutes put through a filter of red tape, bureaucracy and administrative incompetence / corruption = 5 years+, the rules become more punitive and controlling, and it always ends up costing us more somehow. In a lot of ways the longer they ignore us for and just let the tiny numbers of us doing it just get on with it the better !

And more they overthink them laws - more dumb they become.. Would not be surprised that insurance companies have a say in law making by this point.. Money speaks. 

Companies should have no say in law making! They should bend themselves to law, that is put in place for people. Companies need to work around the law to make people experience better.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

33 minutes ago, Funky said:

It takes 5 minutes to make up somewhat decent laws.

Maybe in your head. But certainly not in reality. And people also will not agree on which laws are actually "somewhat decent".

[Funky]

27 minutes ago, Mono said:

 And people also will not agree on which laws are actually "somewhat decent".

So what's the point of having laws anyways?  They are there just for reminder.. If you don't obey them. You will get punished, if caught in wrongdoing. (That's the thing - people can choose.. Not being limited.)

That's the thing! They more or less are just a warning. Same thing i compared to cars having no "limits". User is given rules/laws to follow, or be punished if caught breaking them.

 

By limiting the device. EUC or CAR. you can't break the "law" anymore.. (Yes that's good people won't get hurt and will be driving around the same speed. Less accidents..) But same time you are being limited.. No freedom, or anything. It would be the same as saying no more running ever! Only walking.  

 

Extreme example: 

Spoiler

Murder is against law/rules - people still do it. They can choose to do it, or not. By limiting you have removed the option to do it. I just hate the idea of "LIMITS". I like to think about my own actions. Not being limited by some dumb law/rule.

 

Anyways... Enough rambling.  25kg, 25km/h limit won't pass.. At least for myself.

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Funky

[Uras]

3 hours ago, Funky said:

And whos fault is that.. How long have the EUC's been around now, 10 years? Yet the morons in power can't make a decent rules/laws.. Just keep on showing how pointless and idiotic are our "leaders".

It takes 5 minutes to make up somewhat decent laws.. But nah. That's not how the system works. You need to think about all the little things and how it works in the big picture.

I think it is more to do with numbers / popularity. Unfortunately cars still rule. We sacrifice so much for cars, including our health and the environment. Government is generally like business - they'll do it if it is good for them.

[Uras]

5 hours ago, Funky said:

By that logic why EUC's should.  

 

Cars can go 2x faster than law allows.. Yet most people are somewhat following the law. If everyone on highway are going 10-20km/h faster. I bet you also will go the same speed. Just to keep up..

Like i said - the user can follow the law, or choose to break it. I for sure would not want a EUC's that's hard limited at 25km/h. Going everywhere same speed. I get 25km/h in city.. Less around people. But on empty straight long path/road.. Going 25km/h is just dumb.

It would be same as limiting car at 60km/h. AND you need to drive 60km/h everywhere.. Even on highway. I bet every car owner would kick you in teeth, if you ever said it's a good idea..

I just looked up one of our states - Queensland. It all looks legal there and they have their laws etc worked out. They have the speed limits, but it looks as though it is up to the rider to stay under those limits. There is no mention of pev being speed limited to 25kmh etc.

In Australia it appears that conservative government is against pev, e vehicles and sustainable energy (they were heavily pro coal). Our federal government has changed - there is now a drive for green sources of energy (not coal). Qld is not a conservative gov, and hasn't been for a while. The speed limits are prohibitive, but it's a start and we would be legal there

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/personal-mobility-devices

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

4 hours ago, Uras said:

I just looked up one of our states - Queensland. It all looks legal there and they have their laws etc worked out. They have the speed limits, but it looks as though it is up to the rider to stay under those limits. There is no mention of pev being speed limited to 25kmh etc.

In Australia it appears that conservative government is against pev, e vehicles and sustainable energy (they were heavily pro coal). Our federal government has changed - there is now a drive for green sources of energy (not coal). Qld is not a conservative gov, and hasn't been for a while. The speed limits are prohibitive, but it's a start and we would be legal there

https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/safety/rules/wheeled-devices/personal-mobility-devices

For full context, a PMD was defined as being able to do a max of 25km/h up until 1 November 2022. Since then, there's been no defined speed limit on the vehicle definition - just the speeds at which they should be used (and those limits change based on location). For the most part, even though the default is 12 unless otherwise signed on infrastructure where we might encounter pedestrians these speed restrictions are rarely enforced.

[Uras]

Just now, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said:

For full context, a PMD was defined as being able to do a max of 25km/h up until 1 November 2022. Since then, there's been no defined speed limit on the vehicle definition - just the speeds at which they should be used (and those limits change based on location). For the most part, even though the default is 12 unless otherwise signed on infrastructure where we might encounter pedestrians these speed restrictions are rarely enforced.

the link shows what the law is now - eg:

• Where there is no relevant speed signage, the default speed limits are:
  • 12km/h on footpaths, shared paths and crossings
  • 25km/h on permitted local roads and dedicated bike paths and bike lanes
• Other speed limit signage applies, for example:
  • 10km/h in shared zones
  • specific path speed limits (for example, the Goodwill Bridge is signed at 20km/h for all users).

[Seba]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:46 PM, Kutvelo said:

We have a new law suggested, this did include some interesting and scary info.

The interesting part is the 1000W limit for wheels is removed, EU wide. Nice!

Can you provide me a link to this new law proposal? I am currently taking action to get politicians to liberalize road regulations in Poland, which since last fall have excluded electric monocycles from being able to ride on the roadway. Therefore, any information I can use in discussions with politicians and officials would be very valuable to me.

On 2/8/2023 at 9:46 PM, Kutvelo said:

I wonder if in any EU country or overall any country got insurances available for road use?

In Poland, some insurance companies offer an extension of the compulsory automobile liability insurance that includes electric scooters and electric monocycles. Link4 company also offers standalone insurance covering electric unicycles, called "OC dla ekocyklistów" ("Civil Liability Insurance for Ecocyclists"). It is valid throughout Europe, but the sum assured is only PLN 25,000 (about EUR 5,500). 

https://www.link4.pl/oc-dla-ekocyklistow
https://www.compensa.pl/ubezpieczenie/uto/

It is also worth mentioning that the use of an electric unicycle may be covered by the insurance coverage provided by general liability insurance in private life. There are also insurers that add such liability insurance (covering damage caused by the use of electric scooters and unicycles) to home insurance.

[Funky]

8 hours ago, Uras said:

I just looked up one of our states - Queensland. It all looks legal there and they have their laws etc worked out. They have the speed limits, but it looks as though it is up to the rider to stay under those limits. There is no mention of pev being speed limited to 25kmh etc.

 

That kind of law i could stand by.. Where the owner/user is responsible to obey the speed law. No dumb built in limits..

3 hours ago, Uras said:

the link shows what the law is now - eg:

• Where there is no relevant speed signage, the default speed limits are:
  • 12km/h on footpaths, shared paths and crossings
  • 25km/h on permitted local roads and dedicated bike paths and bike lanes
• Other speed limit signage applies, for example:
  • 10km/h in shared zones
  • specific path speed limits (for example, the Goodwill Bridge is signed at 20km/h for all users).

Doh as i'm going on footpaths all the time. I would be breaking the law everytime i step on the EUC.  Even the local rods one.. Because my average riding speed is 22km/h.. Most of times around 35km/h.

12km/h around people seems sensible.. I sometimes even slow down to walking speeds, while passing. Doh going 12km/h all the time? Even on empty straight footpaths - come on... Noone is gonna do that.

 

Those speeds are good, if you are going by people. And people are around you all time. Actually thinking 12km/h is pretty fast even going by someone at hand length - especially if the person haven't seen you coming. He could side step suddenly and you would hit him. That's why i mentioned i'm going walking speeds sometimes. 

 

But on empty roads/footpaths? I don't see myself ever going that slow. In my country even scooters can go 25km/h EVERYWHERE... Shared/not shared.

Best law/rule - use your own brain and ride responsibly. To yourself and others.. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Funky

[Tasku]

9 hours ago, Uras said:

I just looked up one of our states - Queensland. It all looks legal there and they have their laws etc worked out. They have the speed limits, but it looks as though it is up to the rider to stay under those limits. There is no mention of pev being speed limited to 25kmh etc.

I think that is ideal, especially if the rider can "proof" his knowledge of traffic laws.

9 hours ago, Uras said:

In Australia it appears that conservative government is against pev, e vehicles and sustainable energy (they were heavily pro coal). Our federal government has changed - there is now a drive for green sources of energy (not coal). Qld is not a conservative gov, and hasn't been for a while. The speed limits are prohibitive, but it's a start and we would be legal there

It is funny that we have had this green drive, yet EUC have been hammered with limitations, and clearly they did not want all of em in use. And might I add, the conservative goverment is prolly coming up next. I dont even know how they could hammer us more, oh wait they go and force bicyclist the same they implement to us? I mean, that maybe. Then I gues it would guarantee people would care. (seems to be the cycle of politics here)

---

There is one good thing, and that is the numbers that are now favouring us. They come from statistics. Based on that our form of moving device is small. If you ever have to get insurance, you should make sure that the small size based on the directive is taken in consideration. Also these devices are not in the accident prone or likely to cause accident category, quite the opposite.

---
In most countries the change comes from getting people to sign up change for laws, that is where we at. A good motion, and some attention to it helps our cause. If Most EU-countries would do their own simultanious, it would get us HUGE attention.

So, there is some light shining there. If the insurance companies mess with us, we should totally use the wrong to get media attention. Hopefully every country files their own motion for adress to get national level changes to insurance laws AND vehicle category laws.

Oh and I forgot to add that it only takes 1-person to polish that adress to perfection in your country. As long as it is well prepped and passes, then the goverment puts it to team of experts to implement it. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Tasku

[Eucner]

6 hours ago, Seba said:

Can you provide me a link to this new law proposal?

The Finnish law proposal is written in Finnish. It is a national implementation of Directive (EU) 2021/2118 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 November 2021 amending Directive 2009/103/EC relating to insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of motor vehicles, and the enforcement of the obligation to insure against such liability.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2021/2118

I think you are better off with the original directive.

[Mono]

28 minutes ago, Funky said:

No freedom, or anything.

Your freedom ends where you start to infringe on the freedom of others. Before that, you usually (not always) get all the freedom you want. Simple concept.

17 hours ago, Funky said:

It would be the same as saying no more running ever! Only walking.

You are exactly right.

[Funky]

5 hours ago, Mono said:

Your freedom ends where you start to infringe on the freedom of others. Before that, you usually (not always) get all the freedom you want. Simple concept.

No-one actually has freedom.. If you think about that. Freedom is to do whatever you want - whenever you want. No daily tasks/responsibilities, nothing. No worry/care in world.

5 hours ago, Mono said:

You are exactly right.

And you are okay with that?

[mike_bike_kite]

Here in the UK, I'd be very happy to pay for 3rd party insurance in order to be legal. At the moment, every time I ride, I run the risk of fines, having the wheel confiscated and getting 6 points on my license. 

[Uras]

11 hours ago, Funky said:

But on empty roads/footpaths? I don't see myself ever going that slow. In my country even scooters can go 25km/h EVERYWHERE... Shared/not shared.

Best law/rule - use your own brain and ride responsibly. To yourself and others..

yes, of course. I pass people so slowly that they have no reason to complain. Not much faster than walking speed. As soon as I get open space I speed up. I do take corners slow if I can't see around them - I have avoided quite a few collisions with people on the wrong side of the track etc.

The thing is, most of us are legal with those laws. Where I live now, I'm not legal at all - regardless of my speed.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'd be very happy to pay for 3rd party insurance in order to be legal.

Most of us would, I’m sure. But this new suggestion for a law isn’t doing that. Get an insurance, still illegal to ride in public areas. So either you’re paying for absolutely nothing, or risk even bigger fines if you get caught.

[Mono]

20 hours ago, Funky said:

And you are okay with that?

LOL, I was being sarcastic. Obviously, running on your legs is not the same as operating a motorized +25kg vehicle at +25km/h.

[Funky]

27 minutes ago, Mono said:

LOL, I was being sarcastic. Obviously, running on your legs is not the same as operating a motorized +25kg vehicle at +25km/h.

I'm talking about the limiting part.. Do you like being limited? I think no-one likes to be limited, not allowed to do something and so on.

Cars weight tons and go +200km/h.. Weight/speed doesn't matter. (Ofc it "matters", i know..) Appropriate speed - at appropriate place.

 

All i can say - we are ducked, if any type of law is put in place... You can already see scooter laws. Do you think our "one-wheel" devices will be allowed to go faster? Only in our dreams.  I don't need to hear/see any laws put in place. Because i can guarantee those laws will be stupid.

[Tasku]

On 2/13/2023 at 3:42 AM, mrelwood said:

In conclusion, the big problems for EUCs are:

- The legal status of EUCs doesn’t change. All wheels designed in the last 5 something years are still illegal.

- There will be an additional law that is broken unless you get an insurance.

- An insurance on an illegal vehicle most likely won’t cover any accidents anyway.

- You’d need to have one insurance for each of your wheels, whether you were using them or not (winter, old, broken, etc). Marty used to have 14 wheels. That’s 14 insurances, non-stop. Even a relatively fair 120€ annual fee would become 1680€ per year. And it still probably wouldn’t cover anything.

 

On 2/14/2023 at 10:35 AM, Seba said:

Can you provide me a link to this new law proposal? I am currently taking action to get politicians to liberalize road regulations in Poland, which since last fall have excluded electric monocycles from being able to ride on the roadway. Therefore, any information I can use in discussions with politicians and officials would be very valuable to me.

 

On 2/14/2023 at 5:00 PM, Eucner said:

The Finnish law proposal is written in Finnish. It is a national implementation of Directive (EU) 2021/2118 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 November 2021 amending Directive 2009/103/EC relating to insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of motor vehicles, and the enforcement of the obligation to insure against such liability.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2021/2118

I think you are better off with the original directive.

Yes, to have good right of use, EUC cannot be currently put into the category where it belongs. This is stopped by the EU laws making it impossible. This is not only EUC problem, it is problem every new motorcycle and moped faces. So even the new tech can show extreme reliability and better braking distance, they cannot implement it. It does not help that you kinda have to get the standards to understand the laws, these books cost considerable money too. Based on that, a normal citizen cannot have access to the laws that restrict the use in fullest.

The antique laws of EU must be changed in order to have any change of getting electric motors work also as "brake" (*actually not brake, but using it as "braking power" would prolly be the way with it). Having old brake and electricmotor both in same device.. this causes more problems and scenarios of failing that it is simply better use one(in 2wheel device the front brake could still be discbrake, maybe.. I leave that for now). This would mean the moped and motorcycle should get further dividing into class under it. This does slow innovation, it stops new products getting to markets too. I think' about  ~100s companys made already innovative tech and slammed into this problem. It is getting attention every day, in the media as well. We had one motorcycle in design from Finland that hit this  wall just recently.

This law (in EU level) about making everything mopeds must change, and the manufacturers could then actually make the device as "moped" or making registering possible (currently can't). That said, it is hard to get names in address to make a change. That being the only way a private person could make change into the matter. I assume companies don't try this way cause, people would not get behind one companys plea for helping it make money (or so people would prolly argue about it)? I do think that prepping this kind of address, you should make sure you have some legal help, it would suck if it would fall due to technicality nature in it.  (Maybe with possibility to limit usage upto 25km in bicycle enviroment and defining further usage in same lane with cars. That would be ideal. Rest would be upto the eu-countries implement. That being the case EUC.)

*edit: In media coverage you can find celebs like Keanu Reeves and Mika Häkkinen backing some of these new tech companys making use of electric motors braking power, mostly motorcycles. There are many more articles, but those come in mind in quick notice.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Tasku
Electricmotor is not brake, it provides braking power, yet this does not currently pass as brake. *edit