EUC EU Insurance mandotary for wheels over 25kg + power limit removed EU-wide

[Mono]

On 2/15/2023 at 10:27 PM, Funky said:

Do you like being limited?

I understand that living peacefully together with other humans puts (rather strong) limitations on myself and everybody else. I also understand the perspective of (other) people and lawmakers who are concerned about the safety of pedestrians and other road users. This concern I find infinitely more important than my feelings about being limited. I guess everybody is different.

On 2/15/2023 at 10:27 PM, Funky said:

You can already see scooter laws.

Right. To me, laws in general and laws that specifically legalize and regulate the usage of PLEVs including speed limitations are mostly a good thing. I guess this is because I can see not only my own little perspective as an EUC rider in this. In my mind, the idea that a modern society would want to allow speed-unlimited PLEVs on the streets is, sorry to say, pretty delusional.

[Funky]

42 minutes ago, Mono said:

I understand that living peacefully together with other humans puts (rather strong) limitations on myself and everybody else. I also understand the perspective of (other) people and lawmakers who are concerned about the safety of pedestrians and other road users. This concern I find infinitely more important than my feelings about being limited. I guess everybody is different.

Right. To me, laws in general and laws that specifically legalize and regulate the usage of PLEVs including speed limitations are mostly a good thing. I guess this is because I can see not only my own little perspective as an EUC rider in this. In my mind, the idea that a modern society would want to allow speed-unlimited PLEVs on the streets is, sorry to say, pretty delusional.

Even if you are being limited to 25km/h, would you pass, or even ride that speed around people? I think most would slow down way under those 25km/h speed.. Especially going by arms length distance of pedestrians? In my eyes 25km/h speed limit is pointless. Because 25km/h is way to fast to be riding around people and between people.

You get what i mean???

I just hate the idea that you need to ride EVERYWHERE 25km/h.. Going by people should be around 10km/h speed. If no people are closer than 50/100 meters - you should be allowed to go 25km/h speed. And if you don't see anyone at all - you would be allowed to go 50km/h speed, or whatever speed.. I'm just pulling numbers out of my ass here. But NAH, you can't go faster than 25km/h. Because of the hard set limit.

(In my country you can go 25km/h speed everywhere on scooter.) But same time the pedestrians have first hand. And you need to respect them. Using your own brain to slow down and so on..

I have no problems slowing down around people - because naturally everyone should do that around pedestrians. Like i said before, i have no problems slowing down to walking speed.. Because of people being in my way or some kids running around on my pathway. I would not wanna crash into someone! God forbid make kid cry..

My problem is the "hard set limit". Not letting me go faster on those empty pathways.   I get there needs to be some limits.. Because of each individual "safety" You need to slow down the speed morons.. Cars can go 150km/h++ But there are laws put in place. In city no more than 50km/h speed. And on highways it's ~100km/h speed. Only scooters are being limited, no other transport. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Funky

[Mono]

On 2/18/2023 at 10:06 PM, Funky said:

Even if you are being limited to 25km/h, would you pass, or even ride that speed around people? I think most would slow down way under those 25km/h speed.. Especially going by arms length distance of pedestrians?

Of course I slow down around pedestrians, but we have abundance of evidence that too many other people do not always do it.

On 2/18/2023 at 10:06 PM, Funky said:

You get what i mean?

Sure, in principle traffic laws just need the first paragraph: be respectful and behave such that everybody is safe.

Unfortunately, we know that this does not work in practice, in particular when people have access to motor power. Even worse, also specific behavioral rules turn out to be insufficient to keep people from hurting and killing each other on the roads. We have learned this the hard way from millions of traffic fatalities . Laws are preferably not just behavioral prescriptions, but make it inconvenient or impossible for people to risk other people's livelihood (because people underestimate the consequence of their actions or behave like assholes or...). That's how we now know that speed limited devices are a good thing.

Youtube is a pretty lively testament to the fact that this observation about human nature applies to EUC riders just the same, unsurprisingly.

On 2/18/2023 at 10:06 PM, Funky said:

My problem is the "hard set limit".

I agree, the hard limit is an unsatisfying compromise. Devices that have speed limits depending on where they are would be better. Some rental scooters have that already. I suspect this is not going to happen for privately owned PLEVs, and I am almost certain you are not in favor of it as you would feel it impedes your freedom of choices even further.

Any fast motorized device will eventually either be illegal or become regulated via type approval, insurance and driver's licence, at least that is how it works in Europe and for good reasons.

Edited November 25, 2023 by Mono

[Mono]

On 2/9/2023 at 10:46 PM, Tasku said:

Gotta wonder this 25 number, it is magical number. Comes up everywhere with european law making.

LOL, right, after contemplating over this for years, to me the 25 (in metric units for weight and speed) do feel like a close-to-perfect "compromise" in urban environments when mixing with casual cyclists and, sometimes, pedestrians. And then, there is also this 0.25kW limitation for pedal assist of bicycles, kinda overwhelmingly successful with about 30 million sold units in the EU alone 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Mono

[Mono]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:46 PM, superox said:

I do not understand what the problem is exactly. EUCs and over PEVs with under 25 kph get power limit removed -- that is great. If they're faster or bigger, you need to get insurance. That's cool. A 50 kg wheel speeding into cars/people can potentially do some damage, so if riders need to pay insurance to ride, that's fair enough. Is there something big I'm missing?

You're spot on!

On 2/13/2023 at 2:42 AM, mrelwood said:

Wheels that don’t go faster than that never had more than 1000W anyway, so the wattage limit was a bit of a moot point to begin with. Just like none of them weigh more than 25kg  either.

Regardless of whether any wheel is above the limit, the 1000W limitation was a bad law (out of understandable technological ignorance) to begin with, whereas the 25kg limitation would be a perfectly reasonable law.

[Kutvis]

I haven't read the chain, but as an update for the topic:

A few weeks a go in the news it was said the new regulation to enforce insurances is stuck, someone got an idea: "Rental companies can use under 25kg weight scooters", oh dear. This is exactly what we pointed out to government team working on this subject, but I was told "we trust companies operate ethically" .

The news told it can be changed with country specific regulation, no other info on local/EU-level progress.

[Rawnei]

New law about traffic insurance came into effect here in Sweden on the 23rd of December.

Several insurance companies here in Sweden now offers traffic insurance for your EUC and it's not that expensive so now me and several of my friends are insured.

[Cerbera]

4 hours ago, Rawnei said:

New law about traffic insurance came into effect here in Sweden on the 23rd of December.

Several insurance companies here in Sweden now offers traffic insurance for your EUC and it's not that expensive so now me and several of my friends are insured.

That's encouraging to hear. Or rather it would be if the UK was still in EU, and our government / regulatory bodies weren't lazy, corrupt and not fit for purpose, but perhaps there is still a small ray of hope we'll catch up at some point in the next 100 years !

[Funky]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

New law about traffic insurance came into effect here in Sweden on the 23rd of December.

Several insurance companies here in Sweden now offers traffic insurance for your EUC and it's not that expensive so now me and several of my friends are insured.

What does your euc insurance provide, if i may ask? And how much does it cost? Asking out of curiosity, as i have never even once thought about insurance. As i have never insured anything.. Aside of car.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Funky

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

What does your euc insurance provide, if i may ask? And how much does it cost? Asking out of curiosity, as i have never even once thought about insurance. As i have never insured anything.. Aside of car.

It's a traffic insurance, did you read the original post?

New EU direction enforces traffic insurance for a bunch of new vehicles including PEV's, the goal of the directive is that people riding various vehicles in traffic should have traffic insurance to cover potential accidents.

It's up to each EU country to enforce these directives, in Sweden we have a law that came into effect on the 23:rd of December now enforcing this, in practice it means a police officer can stop you and ask if you have insurance, if you don't have insurance you might receive a hefty fine.

Before it wasn't possible to insure our EUCs but now it is, meaning we can get stopped and show insurance papers and avoid getting a fine, also if we get into accidents with another party we now have insurance to cover potential damage.

[Funky]

49 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

It's a traffic insurance, did you read the original post?

New EU direction enforces traffic insurance for a bunch of new vehicles including PEV's, the goal of the directive is that people riding various vehicles in traffic should have traffic insurance to cover potential accidents.

It's up to each EU country to enforce these directives, in Sweden we have a law that came into effect on the 23:rd of December now enforcing this, in practice it means a police officer can stop you and ask if you have insurance, if you don't have insurance you might receive a hefty fine.

Before it wasn't possible to insure our EUCs but now it is, meaning we can get stopped and show insurance papers and avoid getting a fine, also if we get into accidents with another party we now have insurance to cover potential damage.

I know all that.. And why we need to have insurance. Also that we could not get an insurance before..

 

I asked what does it "provide". As you said one is potential damage in case of accident.. But what exactly? 

Does it cover a burn down house, in case of EUC fire? Does it cover my broken ankle/wrist surgery in case of fall? Does it cover euc cost if it gets stolen? Insurance can be many things. Normally they say that they cover and how much worth.

 

Again i asked what does it actually "doo". Aside of "note" to show a policemen. Or is it actually that? Just a paper to show policemen. And aside of traffic accidents it does nothing more?  And if one isn't riding in traffic - that insurance means jack shit?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Funky

[mike_bike_kite]

I suspect it would be too expensive to cover personal injury. Same thing for insuring your house against damages from an EUC fire. I also suspect it won't cover any damages to your own vehicle but I would expect it to cover damages to other vehicles and people. If such a 3rd party insurance was available here in the UK then I'd jump at it.

[null]

In France, where PEV insurance is mandatory since years, there are several "tiers": basic "legal" is covering the injury to the other person and their items, including from fire. For < 25Km/h vehicles there are many options around 30-50€/ year. For faster devices (up to 45Km/h) around 50-60€+/year. To cover your own injuries or your vehicle its twice the price, then comes yet a step more expensive to cover theft and such.

Here is a googie translate for one of the insurers. I can find some actual contracts to upload is someone is interested.

Regarding the police, your vehicle has to have a sticker with a recap of the insurance, serial number etc, and you are to carry a paper with the remaining information of the insurance contract.

Edited December 29, 2023 by null

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, null said:

For faster devices (up to 45Km/h) around 50-60€+/year.

You mean you can ride your euc legally up to 45 km/h? And you don't need a license to operate one? If yes, that's is fantastic.

[null]

46 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You mean you can ride your euc legally up to 45 km/h? And you don't need a license to operate one? If yes, that's is fantastic.

Sadly its not quite that great, but its better than nothing: The vehicle is not allowed and I risk a fine of 1500€, but in case of accident I am covered, which is the most important (It could be way way more expensive). Above 45Km/h insurers are not allowed to cover because it's yet a step more illegal.

Edited December 29, 2023 by null

[Funky]

But most EUC go faster than 45km/h... You still can get the insurance? In that case i could get the 25km/h one and still ride 80km/h speeds.

My point is - does it matter which one you get - if euc itself can go 80km/h?  You see the problem? Sure you can abide the law and not go faster than your insurance allows. (25km/h or 45km/h one) But who knows what you do on roads.. And how fast you go. Only if police gets you..

Edited December 29, 2023 by Funky

[null]

28 minutes ago, Funky said:

But most EUC go faster than 45km/h... You still can get the insurance? In that case i could get the 25km/h one and still ride 80km/h speeds.

The insurers wording is that they will cover you up to XX Km/h, so 25Km/h insurers can refuse your claim if your accident happened at 30Km/h (Actually they will probably pay the victim, then turn to you to get the money back). Same for the 45: I asked specifically if I had to have a tiltback set to 45Km/h, they said that what counted is what had been registered by the police in the event (however that is supposed to happen I dont know). Basically; I avoid riding above 45Km/h, save rare exception. Also, while logs dont have legal value per see, I have them running as a trace of my fairly reasonable riding.

There have been debates on whether the insurers could pull back, but several of them claim loud and clear that they cover you up to 45. (AFAIK that limit is a European thing about unregistered vehicles)

edit: the reply I got when asking: (deepL translation) Like all insurers, we insure vehicles that comply with the regulations. However, in the event of a traffic accident, we will cover you as long as the speed recorded by the police does not exceed 45 km/h. To answer your question, yes, we cover up to 45 km/h in the event of an accident.

Edited December 29, 2023 by null

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

I know all that.. And why we need to have insurance. Also that we could not get an insurance before..

 

I asked what does it "provide". As you said one is potential damage in case of accident.. But what exactly? 

Does it cover a burn down house, in case of EUC fire? Does it cover my broken ankle/wrist surgery in case of fall? Does it cover euc cost if it gets stolen? Insurance can be many things. Normally they say that they cover and how much worth.

 

Again i asked what does it actually "doo". Aside of "note" to show a policemen. Or is it actually that? Just a paper to show policemen. And aside of traffic accidents it does nothing more?  And if one isn't riding in traffic - that insurance means jack shit?

It's a traffic insurance, if you are interested what a traffic insurance covers go to your insurance company of choice and read what is included.

[Funky]

16 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

It's a traffic insurance, if you are interested what a traffic insurance covers go to your insurance company of choice and read what is included.

Well good thing i don't ride in traffic.. So i'm okay going 50-100km/h on sidewalks'. Because "traffic" insurance doesn't do me any good on sidewalks.  (50-100km/h was a joke.. Maybe.)

Edited December 29, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, null said:

Sadly its not quite that great, but its better than nothing: The vehicle is not allowed and I risk a fine of 1500€, but in case of accident I am covered, which is the most important (It could be way way more expensive). Above 45Km/h insurers are not allowed to cover because it's yet a step more illegal.

Thanks.

From what I gather online, France has one of the larger numbers of euc riders in Europe. You mean all this while euc's are illegal to ride in France? 1500€ is expensive for a fine.

I guess the French police are not so strict on enforcement?

 

[null]

25 minutes ago, techyiam said:

From what I gather online, France has one of the larger numbers of euc riders in Europe. You mean all this while euc's are illegal to ride in France? 1500€ is expensive for a fine.

I guess the French police are not so strict on enforcement?

 

There seem to be quite a lot of EUCs as well as PEVs in general, indeed.
I should have been more detailed in the information I shared:

- PEVs who can ride up to 25Km/h are fully legal, speed has to be capped, and can not be unlocked too easily (Ie a switch). In the case of EUCs TB seem to be accepted, and you can buy a EUC in a local shop that is capped by a code to make it legal (I dont know the details but you can get your hands on the code).

- PEVs who can ride faster than this are sadly not legal, but they can still be insured. To me this the most important because injuring someone can be insanely more expensive than a hefty fine. Considering I find myself more secure in car traffic when I can follow the flow, this is what I go for.

Some people nourish hope for a "fast" PEV category someday.

Police have so much more to do, whether good or bad priorities, that they dont seem to bother much as long as you dont ride like a total ass.

Edited December 30, 2023 by null

[bene]

On 2/14/2023 at 4:00 PM, Eucner said:

The Finnish law proposal is written in Finnish. It is a national implementation of Directive (EU) 2021/2118 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 November 2021 amending Directive 2009/103/EC relating to insurance against civil liability in respect of the use of motor vehicles, and the enforcement of the obligation to insure against such liability.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2021/2118

I think you are better off with the original directive.

Do you have a link to the Finnish law proposal? As much as I know, Finland is in delay regarding their proposal. For a client, I am looking for the Finnish version, so any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

[Eucner]

5 hours ago, bene said:

Do you have a link to the Finnish law proposal? As much as I know, Finland is in delay regarding their proposal. For a client, I am looking for the Finnish version, so any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. 

This the latest proposal to my knowledge.

https://www.eduskunta.fi/FI/vaski/HallituksenEsitys/Sivut/HE_10+2024.aspx

There is going to be some changes to it.

[bene]

13 hours ago, Eucner said:

This the latest proposal to my knowledge.

https://www.eduskunta.fi/FI/vaski/HallituksenEsitys/Sivut/HE_10+2024.aspx

There is going to be some changes to it.

You really helped me a lot. Thank you so much!!!

 

[varamontelo]

For information in France, it is no longer compulsory since this month to place the insurance certificate on the motor vehicle. A new document is given to the owner who must keep it with him to present it to the agents who request it.