EUC EU Insurance mandotary for wheels over 25kg + power limit removed EU-wide

[Funky]

I'll stick to being "sidewalk crawler" going 30-40km/h on sidewalks. I don't need, or even want to ride with cars.. Same for insurance don't want/need it. I didn't have it for my bicycle for well over 10 years. And because i use EUC the same way i did my bicycle. I don't see point of having it also. I don't want to pay ~50$ each month for nothing. (In my case for nothing - because i'm not a guy who gets into accidents.)

 

Ofc i'm going that speed when noone is around. On those empty long/straight pathways. Around people i go much slower, same time trying to follow 25m/h speed limit that scooters have by law around these parts. Even slower, near walking speed going around blind corners, or passing people who haven't heard/noticed me coming behind them.

You have a brain - maybe use it? 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Funky

[Paul A]

Some members need to ride on roads.

Snow, ice, pot holes, rain, low visibility, cars, pedestrians stepping out, etc.

V12 are still randomly accelerating uncontrollably, ejecting riders.

Many other scenarios that are not user error.

[Mono]

16 hours ago, Tasku said:

Speed limit is fine if they allow us to limit it, so that way devices would be very safe in any aspect.

My understanding is that devices in France are limited by the software when they are delivered. When the user removes the limit, the device becomes illegal (which is recognized by the software). This looks perfectly safe to me (as long as the user doesn't unlock the speed limit).

[Funky]

3 hours ago, Mono said:

My understanding is that devices in France are limited by the software when they are delivered. When the user removes the limit, the device becomes illegal (which is recognized by the software). This looks perfectly safe to me (as long as the user doesn't unlock the speed limit).

Cars don't have hard set "limits"... Yet people are following speed laws. I personally think that 25km/h speed limit on scooters are already dumb..

When i was thinking about buying my own. I was looking how to bypass the 25km/h limit. On some you could change the region and get 30km/h max speed, but even that was to little for me. Then i was looking at 40km/h scooters.. Luckily i learned to ride EUC and i didn't need scooter anymore.

Scooter that i was looking at where "hardware" limited. You needed to cut one little wire, to bypass the limit. Originally it was 25km/h limited. After cut it was 42km/h max speed.

 

User could even install "hidden" button for unlocking the speed limit. And at police stops press again to make scooter speed limited.  

I can bet 100% EUC's will have some kind software also for unlocking/locking speed limit, if there ever will be one set. Because FUCK speed/weight limits. MAKE actual speed laws. Where/how fast you can ride.. And let the user take risk of riding faster and getting a ticket or following law.

I for sure will not ride 25km/h on empty straight road.. Same thing as cars on highways are going faster.. Than law allows.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Funky

[superox]

I do not understand what the problem is exactly. EUCs and over PEVs with under 25 kph get power limit removed -- that is great. If they're faster or bigger, you need to get insurance. That's cool. A 50 kg wheel speeding into cars/people can potentially do some damage, so if riders need to pay insurance to ride, that's fair enough. Is there something big I'm missing?

[Tasku]

32 minutes ago, superox said:

I do not understand what the problem is exactly. EUCs and over PEVs with under 25 kph get power limit removed -- that is great.

The EU countries have their own way to put this in use. So you should look if your country has its own. It has taken quite long to look into the details of this.

 

33 minutes ago, superox said:

If they're faster or bigger, you need to get insurance.

The insurance base does not provide confident, based on the old insurance base, and there is no guarantee what will be offered. There is no defining to that, and that is worrysome :

You cannot get rid of the insurances, unless set conditions. Like proof of destroying it. You cannot pause it. That is the old base of the insurances. You need to insure EVERY device. If you have 10, that could be 10k euros just in insurances. This is why the track-user say they cannot afford the hobby.

- If something happens to you, you will not be compensated. Just others. Not even if you die. This is significant change. The most important reason people get insurance, is that if something happens to you, it could pay you back something to survive the events following. As such it is hard to understand the terms given.

- It appears that other EU countries insurances will become invalid after set time (I am wondering is this national level recommend they making?) if you are in another country. Further reducing the safety of insurances. Somehow you need to know this and change to that country insurance company. This sounds so confusing comparison to the old system. (This is something I am still reading about, in my country the team has implemented quite massive changes, it is not just one line.)

47 minutes ago, superox said:

Is there something big I'm missing?

You can go read, why take others word on anything anyway? I did summarise my discovery/thoughts in previous post. Not polished, first scratch as it was first attempt to summarise effects of this law. I think best thing here is that you indeed can get insurance now. Like I said, the power of insurance companies would be near impossible to challenge in courts after some of the changes. I feel the read was quite devastating change. Never has anything been so flimsyly defined as vehicle, because it always had safety guards, but most safeguards would now go down with this changes to the law. But again this is not defined.  Personally I think your best safety is going to be gear.

Link below:

 

[superox]

- Insurances can be expensive
- Insurance coverage will likely be crap
- Old insurances may be annuled or whatever

Is that it? In return you have legalised PEVs? It's still like I'm missing something major here because that sounds like a good deal. I sincerely doubt insurance for a few thousand euro device would be 1000. At least currently I could get PEV insurance at most 9.99/month .

Isn't there something about treating PEVs over 25 kph as vehicles, with possibly more technical requirements and possibly licensing? Something along those lines?

[Tasku]

32 minutes ago, superox said:

Is that it? In return you have legalised PEVs?

Negative, this seems to only define every mechanical device as vehicle(ouside the OR-statement, where you pick one), and therefore insurance companies are now _required to provide_ road-usage-insurances. It still does not give the devices any right of usage in the roads. Just draws line when you need to have insurance. This is insurance laws, there is difference. Defining vehicle class is not changing. So it is fair to assume the insurance bases are to be "offroad" vehicles. They can actually go up much higher, like 2000 euros a year.
BUT the team makes such bold statements and take it way further, like I have tried to explain.

32 minutes ago, superox said:

I sincerely doubt insurance for a few thousand euro device would be 1000. At least currently I could get PEV insurance at most 9.99/month .

I, like many others would not mind paying insurance, we just want speed limit and right to use. But not some robbery terms. It is leap to unknown. The old base offers was horrible, the insurance companies used the line in law that said they do not have to provide those insurances. So do you think the companies now offer you fair deal? Like I said, why does the team not provide examples of the actual costs to inviduals then?
(We will ask if they answer questions)

Edited February 12, 2023 by Tasku

[superox]

Well, in short I don't see the problem. At least not yet. Just happy they remove(d) the silly 1000W limit on EUCs, so I can come visit Helsinki this summer on an EUC. Not even going to need insurance on my wheel apparently.

[Tasku]

8 minutes ago, superox said:

Well, in short I don't see the problem. At least not yet. Just happy they remove(d) the silly 1000W limit on EUCs, so I can come visit Helsinki this summer on an EUC. Not even going to need insurance on my wheel apparently.

Yes. Just say it goes 25km/h or use the 25kg or less. Then based what you said they could make check. The new law has some adds to it that if you move between countrys, insurances must (I think can be checked, not sure if they always do) be checked. 

edit: I do hope you say 25km/h cause you could get a video of customs officer  riding your wheel (they don't have to, but that is still how they are tested for speed)

Edited February 12, 2023 by Tasku

[Funky]

11 minutes ago, Tasku said:

edit: I do hope you say 25km/h cause you could get a video of customs officer riding your wheel

No need to ride - simply lifting it and let it speed up slowly.. (Controlled manner.) Same time showing app how fast it goes. And/or it starts to do a tilt back/alarm at 25km/h speed.

 

Insurance is for getting into accidents and such.. You pay xxx monthly/yearly. If something happens - insurance provider pays you the amount you had signed/contracted on..

My understanding was that simple.

You buy a "safety net". And if you ever need the "safety net" you got it without any QUESTIONS asked. BUT if they now aren't providing what you bought. And are trying get out of contract, not paying you. What's the point of having one in first place? (I get you need one just to be "allowed" to ride.) But fuck that.

Just another big company trying to rip smaller man. Getting free money for nothing.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Funky

[Tasku]

Just now, Funky said:

No need to ride - simply lifting it and let it speed up slowly.. (Controlled manner.) Same time showing app how fast it goes. And/or it starts to do a tilt back/alarm at 25km/h speed.

Not in Finland. The tests are to be made riding em. The tester must wear helmet too, you dont have to provide your helmet.

2 minutes ago, Funky said:

BUT if they now aren't providing what you bought. And are trying get out of contract, not paying you. What's the point of having one in first place?

This is what worries most. See the team argues based on few courtcases that these insurances to be had even the vehicle is not used, not operated, in maintenance, in closed area, offroad.. There is no freedom getting rid of them. So the only way to get rid of the insurance would be destroying it or prooving you sold it. 

One discovery made by the team was that the heavier and more quality devices are less likely to get in accidents. Even in the closed tracks there was only 10 cases in year. They also provided info saying that the insurance companies do not currently pay the insurances from closed track, often arguing that "the offlimits area must be something you cannot walk in". The team goes as far as removing anykind of payments when vehicles are in accidents in closed tracks. 

"Offroad" vehicles are also curious cause if you take such insurance to any road, they don't pay your injuries. And even you would take it to "closed area" like private roads, they still propose to not pay.

Did I already say that this new proposal for laws is heavy favoring the insurance companies? It frightens that this is only prime ministers signature away.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Tasku said:

Did I already say that this new proposal for laws is heavy favoring the insurance companies? It frightens that this is only prime ministers signature away.

Like i said, some dimwit pulls new laws/rules out of their asses. And we comon foulk need to follow them.

Ofc it's in insurance favor. It's always have been that way. Who have more money - they have the power. Rich get richer and so on.. (Do you think they make "insurances" just from their "kindness"? Nah.. They are making money. Imagine everyone is paying them.. It's lucky if they lose about 20% of profits yearly, because of accidents. Rest of the 80% are pockeded.) Less incidents/accidents - more money for them. That's why they insure only devices that don't get into accidents. 

Soon you will need insurance for walking. Or better yet simply breathing..

Nah thanks. I will keep living how i have been my whole life. Not gonna change because of someone's new "law/rule". They can shove it up their asses. 

 

 

Mankind is simply fucked.. So many things are wrong in world - everyone can see what's wrong. But no-one can change the wrong.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

@superox, in case it wasn’t clear:

 

3 hours ago, superox said:

In return you have legalised PEVs?

No. The new law doesn’t affect the legal status of an EUC if it can be user adjusted to go faster than 25km/h. V8F and up will still be illegal.

 

3 hours ago, superox said:

Isn't there something about treating PEVs over 25 kph as vehicles, with possibly more technical requirements and possibly licensing?

No. Insurance and licensing are separate matters completely. The licensing status is not changing, so an EUC still can’t be licensed as a motor vehicle, moped or a motorcycle, which it would have to be if it goes faster than 25km/h. An EUC can only be used legally as a PLEV on cycleways if the max speed is lower than that.

 

2 hours ago, superox said:

Just happy they remove(d) the silly 1000W limit on EUCs, so I can come visit Helsinki this summer on an EUC. Not even going to need insurance on my wheel apparently.

As long as the max speed of your wheel is 25km/h or less. Inmotion V8F - illegal. All Gotways and Begodes - illegal. All 16” and larger KSs - illegal. Some 14” KSs - illegal.

Wheels that don’t go faster than that never had more than 1000W anyway, so the wattage limit was a bit of a moot point to begin with. Just like none of them weigh more than 25kg  either.

 

In conclusion, the big problems for EUCs are:

- The legal status of EUCs doesn’t change. All wheels designed in the last 5 something years are still illegal.

- There will be an additional law that is broken unless you get an insurance.

- An insurance on an illegal vehicle most likely won’t cover any accidents anyway.

- You’d need to have one insurance for each of your wheels, whether you were using them or not (winter, old, broken, etc). Marty used to have 14 wheels. That’s 14 insurances, non-stop. Even a relatively fair 120€ annual fee would become 1680€ per year. And it still probably wouldn’t cover anything.

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That’s 14 insurances, non-stop.

Really non-stop? Does it only stop when the wheel goes to another owner, or gets disposed?

How strict has these laws been enforced recently in Finland? I mean before the insurance requirement.

What are the penalties then for riding an illegal wheel with no insurance after the law comes into effect.? 

Edited February 13, 2023 by techyiam

[Uras]

On 2/9/2023 at 9:09 AM, Tawpie said:

someone will start offering insurance

having to insure something that isn't legal is guaranteed profit

[Uras]

I have no idea what the story is here in australia. I just plead ignorance and try to keep a low profile. Scooters are legal in our nearby city - they have a public scooter scheme. I'm just putting my faith in people power - people here just seem to be buying and riding scooters and wheels. It's still early days for us and relatively low numbers. I hope the world accepts these alternative modes of transport; that would be the logical thing given climate crisis, population and space. I see the trouble that those who ride e mtb in the US have - they aren't legally allowed to ride on many mtb trails. I love the freedom of bicycles and wheels and like to see other folk on scooters too. I don't think anybody is actually happy driving a car in city / urban environments; I'm not. I see it as wasting my life.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Uras

[Uras]

Found this for the UK

 

[Cerbera]

31 minutes ago, Uras said:

Found this for the UK

Yep, depressing at the time, and depressing again now  

He is right though - we have been left no sensible option but to continue to ride considerately and safely as seems best to us, in the hope of actively demonstrating that we are not a problem. It does seem rather hopeless at the moment from where I am standing, and I worry that his optimism about EUCs being included in future PEV law is misplaced. They are ALREADY excluded from scooter insurance policies for example, and we don't have anything like the numbers that scooters do to make them account for us.

Although, like him, I also don't get much hassle from the police so far, I am aware that could turn on a dime and so the sword of Damocles is always hanging above our heads, as it is, should we be unfortunate enough to have an accident, whether it is our fault or not. As somebody who pays road tax, I want to be able to use the roads with whatever transport I am on, not just the car, and I'd like the same protection the law affords everyone else on the road, even cyclists, who haven't paid any tax or insurance !

[Josiah]

41 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Although, like him, I also don't get much hassle from the police so far, I am aware that could turn on a dime and so the sword of Damocles is always hanging above our heads, as it is, should we be unfortunate enough to have an accident, whether it is our fault or not.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Josiah

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Really non-stop? Does it only stop when the wheel goes to another owner, or disposed?

Currently that’s the form of insurance that has been offered to EUCs from some insurance companies. Whether it changes is unknown.

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

How strict has these laws been enforced recently in Finland? I mean before the insurance requirement.

Not very strictly at all. One rider got recently arrested and got a hefty fine due to an unlicensed and uninsured illegal vehicle amongst others, but he was probably mainly stopped for riding the reds and speeding.

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

What are the penalties then for riding an illegal wheel with no insurance after the law comes into effect.? 

Unknown. But at least it’s an easier check for the police should they stop a rider. So far the top speed and motor power have been difficult to find out unless the rider tells them, but with the new law the insurance and weight should be an easy check. A starting period for the new law will surely include a lot of checks and police stopping riders, but how much and for how long is of course unknown.

[Funky]

Sometimes i love living in non-busy, small city. We don't have police presence in public.. And even if i saw them - i got many, many side paths/roads. That i can go around them.  

So basically any "new" law/rule being made - i personally don't care. I will keep riding like i have been. Even if my wheel is "illegal" to heavy/fast.

[Uras]

Well, I did find out what the legal situation is for my state (Tasmania). Bottom line is not one euc is legal because they can all go over 25km/h! PMD is persoal mobility device; it covers scooters, e wheels, what everyone else knows as PEV.

You must be at least 16 years old
You must wear an approved helmet
The PMD must be designed to carry only one person
You cannot take a passenger or animal on the PMD
The PMD cannot go over 15km an hour on a footpath
The PMD cannot go over 25km and hour on a road,
The PMD cannot be capable of going more than 25kmh on a flat surface,
It cannot weigh more than 45kgs, and
It cannot have any sharp points sticking out that may cause injury.

and not allowed:

• If the road has a speed limit of more than 50kmh
• If it is a one-way road with more than one land (unless it is declared a PMD safe zone)
• If the road is a PMD free zone
• If being towed by another vehicle
• While holding a mobile phone in your hand.

I'm going with people power - let the laws catch up 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Uras

[Uras]

5 hours ago, Cerbera said:

As somebody who pays road tax

yes, everyone in Australia pays for roads. We should have equal access. 

[GothamMike]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:57 AM, Paul A said:

Purpose of speed limits, might be for the reduction of serious/fatal injuries when an error is made.

This video demonstrates that.

The bicycle was likely to be much lighter than a V13 (50kg), traveling at a much lower speed than 90kph.

 

If a rider is speeding......regardless of another party being at fault.....a severe penalty on the rider might be imposed.

Dawn's high speed run on the mixed use cycle path was very disturbing.

 

 

Jaywalking laws are never enforced in NYC. I would remove this video from YouTube.