EUC EU Insurance mandotary for wheels over 25kg + power limit removed EU-wide

[Kutvis]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

I am not seeing the point to ride a 25+ kg wheel when I am not allow to ride above 25 km/h. 

You just ride over 25kph when there is nobody around. In busy cities 25kph is just fine on bicycle paths, anything past that is dangerous for public. Any faster should go with cars and motorcycles in my opinion.

3 hours ago, Paul A said:

Purpose of speed limits, might be for the reduction of serious/fatal injuries when an error is made.

This video demonstrates that.

The bicycle was likely to be much lighter than a V13 (50kg), traveling at a much lower speed than 90kph.

If a rider is speeding......regardless of another party being at fault.....a severe penalty on the rider might be imposed.

Dawn's high speed run on the mixed use cycle path was very disturbing.

I completely and 100% agree on this, 0 respect to her or anyone in the team. Felt like narcistic trolling toward the community in my opinnion.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Kutvelo

[Funky]

4 minutes ago, Kutvelo said:

It is same in here, but the law enforcement have to have proof. Even if the PEV goes past 25kph the rider can just say "it is limited", the officers can take it to test and if it goes past the speed they will fine according (good luck testing EUC). Anything going past 45kph is a moped, anything past 65kph is a motorcycle, but it must be proven or the rider must admit it.

Simple lift test doing freespin.  Easy and fast.

 

I still think weight limit is dumb.. You need speed limits, not weight. Instead of the 25kg limit put the speed there. 

[Kutvis]

Just now, Funky said:

Simple lift test doing freespin.  Easy and fast.

 

I still think weight limit is dumb.. You need speed limits, not weight. Instead of the 25kg limit put the speed there. 

How come? The wheel can spin all it wants when it is not loaded. Can also block the screen (I have anyway done this to my all euc, I watch only HUD or wrist for info).

[Funky]

2 minutes ago, Kutvelo said:

How come? The wheel can spin all it wants when it is not loaded. Can also block the screen (I have anyway done this to my all euc, I watch only HUD or wrist for info).

Show officer the app.. And let the wheel spin up. Slowly.. Controlled free spin. At some point (Your own set "limits") It will start to beep/tilt you back.

 

Quick setting switch could come in help, if police stops you.  

Edited February 9, 2023 by Funky

[Cerbera]

I'd just show 'em my first speed alarm in EUC World. And then try and conflate that with tilt-back

[Kutvis]

1 minute ago, Funky said:

Show officer the app.. And let the wheel spin up. Slowly.. Controlled free spin. At some point (Your own set "limits") It will start to beep/tilt you back.

 

Quick setting switch could come in help if police stops you.  

Ahh, we don't need to. It is enough in our country to say it and they have to believe you or proven otherwise. Police aren't kings in here but public servants and they generally and really want to help and do good. This is no Chigago

[Funky]

3 minutes ago, Kutvelo said:

proven otherwise.

That's why the quick setting change..  You original speed setting are 50+mph. But at police stops "1 button press" it goes down to 25mph or something..  

Edited February 9, 2023 by Funky

[Kutvis]

Just now, Funky said:

That's why the quick setting change..  You original speed setting are 50+mph But at police stops "1 button press" it goes down to 25mph or something..  

Yes, this is propably mandotary in most countries, but in here we don't need to do even that with the power limit removed. But the 25kg limit would be very hard to deny

[Funky]

Thinking more about this LAW.. I kinda want it to happen! Maybe manufacturers will start making more 25kg wheels.  (I hope..)

25kg is my sweet spot for wheel weight.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Funky

[Kutvis]

Just now, Funky said:

Thinking more about this LAW.. I kinda want it to happen! Maybe manufacturers will start making more 25kg wheels.  

25kg is my sweet spot for wheel weight.

I wish it to be enough for RS19, that is first wheel with enough torque in my taste. At worst gotta swap to 2x KS16X and ride with them, it would not break us even though it would suck!

[2disbetter]

1 hour ago, Kutvelo said:

It is same in here, but the law enforcement have to have proof. Even if the PEV goes past 25kph the rider can just say "it is limited", the officers can take it to test and if it goes past the speed they will fine according (good luck testing EUC). Anything going past 45kph is a moped, anything past 65kph is a motorcycle, but it must be proven or the rider must admit it.

With Inmotion wheels (or at least the V12 HT and V13) you can set the max speed in the settings. You could easily set your max to 25 km/h and then you would be good, if you had to prove anything. 

 

[alcatraz]

Hehe. A Begode RS with the speakers off should then be insurance free. Phew. It's a safe wheel then. Just 80km/h. 😁

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, Funky said:

25kg is my sweet spot for wheel weight.

No questions about it, this is a win for you. 🙂

Other manufacturers may want to release a suspension wheel to compete in the S18, (25 kg or less class), if there is a high demand for the S18 all of a sudden. 

[Funky]

26 minutes ago, techyiam said:

No questions about it, this is a win for you. 🙂

Other manufacturers may want to release a suspension wheel to compete in the S18, (25 kg or less class), if there is a high demand for the S18 all of a sudden. 

xD I still would like to see updated model without suspension. Every new wheel have suspension now.. 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Funky

[Rawnei]

Even if they pass this law which in itself is a slow process then it's up to each member country to adopt it which is also a slow process, so it's not something that will just be EU-wide over night if it passes.

In Sweden we already don't have any weight limit or motor power limit for self-balancing vehicles (EUC, Segway, etc), however they are supposed to only be able to go 20kmh so technically most riders here are breaking the law.

[Tasku]

Edit: TO BE CLEAR, talking about european new law, not rest of world.

Don't "sleep" until you see the insurances. If they are anything you could get before, you could still not ride on roads. You could not get rid of the insurance payments by cancelling it, there was requirements of proof that you have legally destroyed it. The costs was.. well lets just say you won't buy more wheels, because it is only for that one and the price of new wheel, is now spend to insurance. The insurances was problem before, so I don't see anything but now they must give em, where as they (insurance companies) all did not, and the one you were able to ask for, was impossible terms.

And this weight limit: gives the opportunity to go around following the current laws where you need to test the wheel by riding. It dimishes even further euc-riders right to ride in legal manner 25km/h or those who been limiting theyr wheel to that (example, bicycles got away with it, so many limited their wheel with apps, hoping it counts for something). There is no requirement to proof, just weighting a wheel. I don't see how you can say "no don't weight my wheel" since they now just can come and say they weight it. The same still applies that police must then conduct the procedures to test-drive the wheel. Law say: they can also ignore doing(meaning optional, but must be done to proof speed for one), result are what they are then. Wondering where this 25kg really comes from? The new and safer battery tech, that does not cause fires, is heavy and will put you over the limit. If all possible the weight limit must be pushed or better yet removed entirely. If not fixed then it comes down to getting names for "adress" requesting to fix it.

Simply put device limitting to ~25km/h, and we can do that with apps, with "soft-limiting". That would make us in the position where people want to be. Most know hard-limiting also affects breaking power so, we need some levay to perform the limiting. If the 25km warning beeps all the time it is gonna drive everyone crazy and dogs running us down.

We won't get a fair shake until the people who use devices can atleast have a voice. But I would love to see fair insurances and worry for nothing regarding this new law.

Gotta wonder this 25 number, it is magical number. Comes up everywhere with european law making.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Tasku

[Rawnei]

My personal opinion is that limiting the vehicle characteristics is dumb, instead have varying speed limits on bike paths, general speed limit in pedestrian areas, same type of rules that apply to cars, there's no requirement what the top speed of a car should be but there are traffic laws that they need to follow, should be the same for every type of vehicle, why should a PEV only be able to go X amount of speed when a road cyclist can go 50-60kmh with their legs? Doesn't make any sense, use traffic laws instead of limiting technology.

[Tasku]

53 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

My personal opinion is that limiting the vehicle characteristics is dumb, instead have varying speed limits on bike paths, general speed limit in pedestrian areas, same type of rules that apply to cars, there's no requirement what the top speed of a car should be but there are traffic laws that they need to follow, should be the same for every type of vehicle, why should a PEV only be able to go X amount of speed when a road cyclist can go 50-60kmh with their legs? Doesn't make any sense, use traffic laws instead of limiting technology.

Agree with you there.

Maybe, some people are making arguments against us, but just gotta keep getting more data to prove em wrong. With time, change will come.

I hope people think of this as "marathon not a sprint". Maybe the protesting and such made em understand that people are unhappy. The bicyclist-organizations would fight hard against this: "need of having a insurance". Sadly they do not understand that after we are forced, it will crawl to them too. This (not)need for insurance is their fight too(bicyclist), later on. The bicycling organisations were asked to give feedback, seems they got voice out: "not affecting bicycling".

Maybe in future you cannot get outa your house with your own legs cause people are worried you might run, and need medical attention. They/We/Everyone need insurance in any form of movement - that being the insurance company way of thinking and they seem to able to lobby that now. Even Euc would be less prone to accident than driving other vehicles, does it matter? If you meet someone who never ridden these, they also tell "you are brave" or "Arent you afraid of falling?". Public opinion hard to change. Those who try/learn have high rate of interest..

Edited February 10, 2023 by Tasku
zzz

[mrelwood]

11 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Even if they pass this law which in itself is a slow process then it's up to each member country to adopt it which is also a slow process, so it's not something that will just be EU-wide over night if it passes.

Not over night, but they are talking about adopting to the new law at the end of this year if the law passes.

 The thing is, what we currently know is only a suggestion of a new law. It wouldn’t be unheard of if the suggestion gets much worse for our part when the suggestion is on the table and people who clearly can’t see the bigger picture are deciding how to go about this.

It would be really good to have a voice in the matter right about now. There are (again) talks about starting an official EUC association here in Finland, but it seems difficult to find people who are able to take part in founding the association. The community here is quite small after all.

[sbb]

18 hours ago, Kutvelo said:

I wish it to be enough for RS19, that is first wheel with enough torque in my taste. At worst gotta swap to 2x KS16X and ride with them, it would not break us even though it would suck!

And suddenly, external battery packs became all the rage, again!

[Kutvis]

If you have any questions you would like to ask please PM me. I have forms I can share, but this is generally for finnish people.

We gather questions and send them all together to goverment official.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Kutvelo

[Funky]

11 hours ago, Rawnei said:

My personal opinion is that limiting the vehicle characteristics is dumb, instead have varying speed limits on bike paths, general speed limit in pedestrian areas, same type of rules that apply to cars, there's no requirement what the top speed of a car should be but there are traffic laws that they need to follow, should be the same for every type of vehicle, why should a PEV only be able to go X amount of speed when a road cyclist can go 50-60kmh with their legs? Doesn't make any sense, use traffic laws instead of limiting technology.

100% agree also there. Weight limit is dumb. They need to make speed laws.. And how fast/where riders can go.

 

I give no ducks, even this new "law" passes. (Any dimwit/moron can make new laws out of their asses and people need to follow them.. Nah thanks. I'll keep riding the same as i have been doing.)

[Tasku]

(Trying to summarise so editing might still occur)

I been studying the presentation now that the team was prepping. The team has heavy influence from insurance companys and it single handedly favours such companies in every manner. It even plainly dismiss the need to pay insurances to racetrack drivers in any closed races(well to anyone actually), if they get injured that is.

In simplicity, the proposed add but also removes from current laws, so many new laws in this proposal going forward and they interact with each other to make impact. With bigger effects than the team cares to explain. The ones that would be removed would win law cases in favour of insurance companies.

It makes OR statement for 25km/h - 25kg, if not then everything is "vehicle" and everything need to be insured by insurance companys (roadusage-insurance).
They call it minium directive, and based on this statement they claim new vehicles could now get insurance, where they earlier could not.
They also define this with, so people who would now get injured as driver in tracks, are forced to get insurance, but not receive benefits from insurances if in case of accident. They did hear one group about this and they were told their hobby is dying because the insanely high insurances. Notably the team refuses to define closed track usage, that being the case why currently insurance companies take cases of track accidents to court, instead of paying the insurances of accidents, based on the loose terms regarding "closed track" and its requirements.

The hearing of people and their use cases still seems that the new law totally ignores people who have multiple devices in their name. Each device needs to be insured, according to the law. It is notable important that the new definition of "vehicles" leave lot open, and the insurances are extremely costly.

The team considered that only 4% of car owners had more than 2-cars, but the 2-car owners was decent (based on that there is ton of other vehicles in households). With this new law the amount of insurances in household, could go up by 1-10, bigger the household the more they have devices and majority of the devices are not within the arguments. If these devices are not within the OR statement above, they could cost "offroad-vehicle-insurances". Notable is that you cannot get rid of said insurance or even pause it when you do not have it in use. Again the team does not bother explaining this more than explaining it as income and added revenue.

Even the bicyclist is they key target, the group excludes them. My analysis sofar is that, the current law proposal will bring many tears to  specifically those who does not make the cut, that the team is proposing. Even the more quality devices are heavier and provide less accidents, it is still ignored, but it makes sense to only force insurance to those who do not have accidents, this again proves my point that this is all and single handedly favour to the insurance companies. I know that for long there have been calculations to get insurance payments from bicyclist, this law will later be turned to cover also all bicyclist, I am absolutely certain of it, it just needs the right goverment to change it.

---
Summary so far:
The law prepping team does not consider the affects, just thinks this as income. If this passes the laws will favour ONE-SIDEDLY insurance companys because the team again does not define in anyway what insurance companys provide. Where as one could imagine they fix one thing, they surely create so many. And the worst is that the proposal does not fix the existing problems. It does not solve closed track requirements. It does not let you drive or use vehicles, just defines them as one. In legal manner this law is nightmare for the users of devices that do not meet the teams high criteria. Notably the team makes discovery that heavier scooters were safer, this did not affect their weight requirement. Instead the number was selected lower so more would fall under the forced criteria. The rental scooter companys were required to improve their fleet, now after this law it is possible it might lower it. (or statement not and)

The insurances does not provide right to use. So you would have device you have to pay and in worst case insurance you cannot get rid off.

The 25km/h or 25kg seems to be the thing people only draw attention to, but it should be case of its own. Biggest concern is that users that lower their devices 25km/h, well it is not adressed, but it should be option in HUGE change like this. More notably, if the users would lower limitation of their devices to 25km/h the serious accidents that the team fear us about would be non-existing. Again lets not forget that the device weight usually now means safer devices and they only want money from that market share. For now.

One more thing, the team makes use of pre-cases to make arguments. Mostly to further define that even you do not use devices in the public road, they should now fall under forced payments. They think/argue: that even device does not move or it is not used: the need to pay is valid, that being absurd to everyone. (I hope? Because of this you cannot put insurances on hold, you cannot get rid of em once you have one.) They do exclude some device use that was in previous laws too.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Tasku

[Mono]

On 2/8/2023 at 9:46 PM, Kutvelo said:

I wonder if in any EU country or overall any country got insurances available for road use?

In France EUCs are legal and need to be insured independently of weight. If you spare 5 EUR per month you got it.

Certainly there is a speed limit, obviously.

Anything with a motor that goes fast is eventually going to need type approval and drivers license, additional to insurance. That's how it is, obviously, and pretty much anywhere.

[Tasku]

42 minutes ago, Mono said:

In France EUCs are legal and need to be insured independently of weight. If you spare 5 EUR per month you got it.

Certainly there is a speed limit, obviously.

Anything with a motor that goes fast is eventually going to need type approval and drivers license, additional to insurance. That's how it is, obviously, and pretty much anywhere.

I would take that deal. But you must be able to ride, cancel anytime too (like for winter).

Speed limit is fine if they allow us to limit it, so that way devices would be very safe in any aspect.

Instead of driver licence, which is hard limiter, I would like to talk proof of knowledge on road rules. This way people with even moped card could use.

If you have drivers licence, one should not have need to limit anything, just go within limitations of roads speed limit. 

-

There is rules that can be used there, if your country can give insurance, they would have to respect that in other EU countries too. But this new proposal to change law had some interference to it too. I would have to read tons but I think basicly they try to change it so, that vehicles in finland must transit to finnish road usage laws within certain limit. And foreing insurance companies can get in by partnering with finnish insurance companies. I admit I would have to check all that up cause it is complex.

There will be someone asking your insurance company so they can contact  Current laws make all eu countries able to do so. But if they dont offer it for faster than 25km/h able devices, then it will not likely work for em.