Inmotion 16" suspension

[daniel1234]

Is there any pics/info of V14 - or this is theoretical discusion?

 

[Funky]

10 hours ago, Murdomeek said:

enthusiasts have an arsenal of wheels and upgrade to the latest and greatest every time a new model comes out.  

Commuters buy one euc every 5 years, doesnt go on forums or fb groups.  They just buy and ride until it dies.  

Which market segment do you think is more profitable? 

Ofc the guys who buy wheel once 5 years are much. much bigger true whole world. (Including myself.) Most people don't make forum accounts and don't talk about wheels.. I already have one example from my own family. My Dad - he doesn't have account here, he doesn't even use APP of the said wheel.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

10 hours ago, conecones said:

This "push" for smaller wheel and lighter wheels baffles me a little. From the EUC World stats, we already see that small/medium size wheels make up a significant part of the riding population. With multiple wheels of proven track records like V8, V10, V11, 18XL, what exactly is missing in this segment? It looks like people think the manufacturers have somehow abandoned this group when this segment is the most developed, best selling,  and most ridden one of all. Are people actually serious about demanding something like a 30lb/80km range unicorn wheel? As far as I can see, the light weight commuter class of wheels has already matured and manufacturers are simply waiting for new battery & motor tech to be trickled down. These EUC manufacturers do not have the R&D money to create such impossible specifications. 

Contrary to what you may think, the advertising and appealing to the enthusiast crowd is a valid way get the larger community noticed. Amped Electric games put EUC's in the news because a small group of enthusiast riders showcased to the world what is possible on an EUC. This will get kids and adults alike interested in EUC's in general, and the commuting aspects of it will naturally make sense once they ride. These days with how people consume media, exciting content is what drives engagement, not some boring but informative report on how much time an EUC can save on your commute.

By that logic top tier "big/heavy" wheels also have quit a big market share already - we don't need any new "heavy/big" wheels... Yet they keep making them. While smaller market haven't seen any lightweight wheel for ~3-4 years.

 Have you noticed almost all new wheels are copy of a copy? Yet no-one is crying about that.

We simply want updates smaller wheels.. Same design as bigger brothers and such. (16" 65lbs/30kg isn't really a "smaller wheel". Because it's almost the same weight as real 18 inchers..)

We aren't asking for 30lbs (Actually 30lbs wheel is doable.. It just will have low top speed and little range..) ~55lbs is the sweet spot for speed/range/power. 35mph can be done on 55lbs wheel. As for range 50-80km range also can be done. -That range is PLENTY for a small wheel. Don't forget we are talking about small wheels. They don't have range..

 

I love my 18xl. But i would love it even more, if it had real 18x3" tire. More metal build than plastic. And water rating. Because i'm riding 1/3 days in HEAVY rain especially in fall. Also awesome would be to have real smart BMS - where you could see each cell/group voltage.

Any wheel ever made - can be made BETTER!

[Nostris]

On 2/5/2023 at 3:32 AM, mrelwood said:

You mean coil spring rather than air? Hydraulics take care of the damping on all suspension EUCs (except V11, which doesn’t have any damping). What differs is what provides the uplift: coil or air.

While they look similar, the V13 suspension behaves very differently than the V11 one. V11 suspension can be called a tractor seat, I give you that, but the V13 is something else entirely.

 

We’ll see, 16” 100V 1800Wh does sound awfully V12-ish…

It does, but even as a long time V11 user/lover/advocate I must say that the V11 suspension system is awfully dated. There are good reasons why Inmotion decided to finally go with a tail shock.

 

 And so the waiting for more news begins!

Yes..That just what I mean.. Coilovers…an adjustable rate spring over an adjustable hydraulic shock absorber . The air shock system is really not the way to go..they all end up leaking and loosing pressure and as a result are maintenance heavy. 

[mrelwood]

16 hours ago, Murdomeek said:

enthusiasts have an arsenal of wheels and upgrade to the latest and greatest every time a new model comes out.  

Commuters buy one euc every 5 years, doesnt go on forums or fb groups.  They just buy and ride until it dies.  

Which market segment do you think is more profitable? 

The commuters, just due to the sheer number of them. Enthusiasts are just a small group.

 

15 hours ago, conecones said:

With multiple wheels of proven track records like V8, V10, V11, 18XL, what exactly is missing in this segment?

A modern suspension, display, touch screen, and a smarter BMS, to name a few.

What does the EX30 offer that didn’t exist before? Or Commander Pro? Or Master Pro? Etc.

 

[conecones]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

A modern suspension, display, touch screen, and a smarter BMS, to name a few.

Which will add weight and cost to product that is in a weight & cost sensitive market segment. A smart BMS would be nice but I'm on the fence on whether it's really needed for smaller, lower voltage non high performance wheels. $2000US for a reliable 50km/h bicycle replacement commuter wheel is a nice value and I wouldn't want to pay more for suspension or a touch screen/display - would rather spend the money upgrading to a faster $3000+ car replacement wheel for a quicker commuter and faster group rides.  

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

What does the EX30 offer that didn’t exist before? Or Commander Pro? Or Master Pro? Etc.

EX30 - Only production wheel with C40 motor
Commander Pro - another attempt to copy Veteran (and will likely meet the same fate as original Commander)
Master Pro - First 4800WH

Basically the status quo - Begode continuing to experiment and push boundaries, and XB just there to troll Veteran. 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

would rather spend the money upgrading to a faster $3000+ car replacement wheel for a quicker commuter and faster group rides.  

No-one stopping you.. GO do that. Not everyone needs bigger/faster wheel. (The problem is - there haven't been any new lightweight wheel made.)

I'm one of those guys who ride on pavement. Same time the owner of one wheel for next 5+ years. I for sure would like to get something small/light, but same time enough speed. Range is nice to have, but i personally am happy with ~1000Wh battery.

 I would gladly pay 3000$ that is built like tank and are actually good wheel right out of box. Because i'm gonna ride it for next seeable future. (500-1000$ extra for over 5 years is nothing.)

 

People who buy new wheels each year, and weight isn't a limiting factor - it doesn't matter. Most of them will buy one of the top tier monster EUC's anyways. (Simply because of range/speed.) For me anything over 65lbs is automatically a no go wheel. Simply they are to fast and has to much range. (Which is pointless for my needs.) Every new wheel has been over 65lbs for last 3 years.

 

Here's a great example: If i had option to buy 18xl for 2000$ or lets say v13 for same amount. I would buy 18xl. Because i don't want/need that heavy wheel.  Also for having more "newcomers" in hobby, manufacturers should look at lighter market for sure. They won't be buying 4000$ wheel. And older models doesn't look so great as new ones..

Edited February 14, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

Which will add weight and cost to product that is in a weight & cost sensitive market segment.

A display weighs maybe 0.2kg. V11 whole suspension system weighs 1.8kg. Extra BMS features weigh 0.05kg.

 People need variety. There needs to be light wheels without extra features, but there also needs to be 2kg heavier wheels with those extra features. That’s what the markets don’t currently have.

 But the manufacturers have realized the issue. Inmotion, KingSong and Veteran are all making a 16” wheel next, and Inmotion is possibly even making a truly light wheel as well.

1 hour ago, conecones said:

A smart BMS would be nice but I'm on the fence on whether it's really needed for smaller, lower voltage non high performance wheels.

The current passive top balancing system is inadequate for keeping the cells balanced in various charging conditions and habits. S22 and V13 are finally changing that. Those features need to (and unavoidably will) trickle down to lighter wheels ASAP.

1 hour ago, conecones said:

would rather spend the money upgrading to a faster $3000+ car replacement wheel for a quicker commuter and faster group rides.

And you already have that choice! Good for you! Some of us don’t have the choice of upgrading to a wheel that would serve us as well.

1 hour ago, conecones said:

EX30 - Only production wheel with C40 motor
Commander Pro - another attempt to copy Veteran (and will likely meet the same fate as original Commander)
Master Pro - First 4800WH

 

 

1 hour ago, conecones said:

Basically the status quo - Begode continuing to experiment and push boundaries, and XB just there to troll Veteran. 

Do you see XB wheels as important members of the market? Are they needed? Is someone buying a XB because it’s the only wheel that serves their purposes, and others don’t come even close?

I don’t think you do. That’s called an overly saturated market segment. We don’t have that in the light or medium weight groups. Instead we have a void. People are ready to pay for the modern features in a medium weight package. Ones who don’t need to break the sound barrier with the top speed.

[Uras]

13 hours ago, Drunkard said:

30lb/80km range unicorn wheel?

30kg - a fair bit of difference and easily achievable. It's already out there with the T4. 25kg for the ks16x has the same specs but no suspension.

[Uras]

6 hours ago, Nostris said:

The air shock system is really not the way to go..they all end up leaking and loosing pressure and as a result are maintenance heavy. 

I don't think so. They've been rock solid in the mtb world for over a decade. Air shocks are very light and suit a wide variety of weights - a spring doesn't. I would check the air pressure in my mtb probably every 3 months - the only change I generally see is a small loss of pressure that is used to pressurize the pump shock and it's gauge. Forks are also mostly air and are just as reliable.

There is a maintenance component with air suspension - perhaps this is what you mean? For example, I perform the 50hr service every 500km (for simplicity). I'm slow, it takes me about an hour.

[Uras]

11 hours ago, Funky said:

(16" 65lbs/30kg isn't really a "smaller wheel". Because it's almost the same weight as real 18 inchers..)

What has been happening is that the 18" wheels usually have the same specs as the 16" wheels in the same model range. Kingsong for example - 18" has the same motor (2200) and the 16x. I want lots of low end torque which is why I went for 16x. Those 18" wheels will give you more speed but less torque. 

If they scaled up the 18" wheels then they would be heavier. They'd need a bigger motor, then a bigger battery to get a similar range etc etc.

[conecones]

8 hours ago, Funky said:

No-one stopping you.. GO do that. Not everyone needs bigger/faster wheel. (The problem is - there haven't been any new lightweight wheel made.)

I'm one of those guys who ride on pavement. Same time the owner of one wheel for next 5+ years. I for sure would like to get something small/light, but same time enough speed. Range is nice to have, but i personally am happy with ~1000Wh battery.

 I would gladly pay 3000$ that is built like tank and are actually good wheel right out of box. Because i'm gonna ride it for next seeable future. (500-1000$ extra for over 5 years is nothing.)

You'd pay $3000 for basically a fancier V10F/18L?

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

A display weighs maybe 0.2kg. V11 whole suspension system weighs 1.8kg. Extra BMS features weigh 0.05kg.

 People need variety. There needs to be light wheels without extra features, but there also needs to be 2kg heavier wheels with those extra features. That’s what the markets don’t currently have.

 But the manufacturers have realized the issue. Inmotion, KingSong and Veteran are all making a 16” wheel next, and Inmotion is possibly even making a truly light wheel as well.

I understand why IM/KS/LK are pushing towards a medium size wheel because of its larger appeal a greater audience - I just wish they went with 18" because after owning multiple 16" wheels, personally I feel this wheel size is unsafe for commuting and gives up too much for the small weight difference to 18". The Nikola+ (16") was the same weight as RS (18") just because of the stronger body on the Nikola+.

Perhaps there is a market for people who want to pay premium for a very nicely built small/medium size commuter wheel. Personally I wish to see this segment of wheels get cheaper, not more expensive. I would gladly buy a V10F or 18L to run smaller errands if it was $400 cheaper. The value ($/WH) is already pretty bad when comparing the smaller wheels against the larger and it will only get worse with these new 16" entries. 

I see a lot of complaints about weight this and weight that, but honestly I think more people need to spend more time on larger wheels and this mentality will change. I'm lucky to have commuted on everything from an Mten4 to a V13 and at the end of the day my goal is to get to work & back safely and quickly and I would gladly deal with more weight so I can stress less over over crappy road conditions and where to charge. A larger wheel can do everything a smaller wheel can (albeit not as well) but the reverse cannot be said. 

Edited February 15, 2023 by conecones

[Tawpie]

I already have too many wheels... and maybe it's because I learned to ride on a 16" and fell in love with off road on a 16"… but I'm intrigued by the possibility of a 16" off-road suspension wheel with a bit more range and oomph than my S18. From the teaser specs, the linkage style suspension hints that they may be going for more wheel travel, something I value over plushness.

 

I wonder who they're targeting this at... forest road riders that will go quicker and further or single track riders that need the big wheel travel and really don't go very fast (but need gobs of low speed thrust)? Street riders that value plushness? I hope they're not trying to target too wide of a market but the moderately big battery means it'll weigh a lot and that's not so good for routes like Mt. Wilson.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out this year. I already have no room in the wheel house and the market for used has fallen apart so it's unlikely I'll do anything but snipe from the bleachers, but I'd be willing to let the s18 go, and the 16X too (gawd, I thought I'd never say that)… if V14 or one of the other 16" suspension offerings are up to filling the S18's spot as my lightweight technical trail wheel.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Tawpie

[techyiam]

13 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

but I'd be willing to let the s18 go, and the 16X too (gawd, I thought I'd never say that)… if V14 or one of the other 16" suspension offerings are up to filling the S18's spot as my lightweight technical trail wheel.

Leaper Kim has hinted that their Sherman-S 16" has 2220 Wh battery. This and Sherman-S quality translate to the weight ballpark of an S22.

I doubt the V14 is going to be light either because people want V13 quality. The only one left is the S16. But everything is mum there.

My guess is that there is a higher chance for one of the new 16" suspension wheels replacing your S22. That is, if you want to get a new wheel for 2023.

[Tawpie]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

My guess is that there is a higher chance for one of the new 16" suspension wheels replacing your S22.

That would be a bummer actually. The S22 has some real advantages in the 'general purpose' realm (speed mostly!). Oh well, gotta wait and see!

[techyiam]

1 minute ago, Tawpie said:

That would be a bummer actually. The S22 has some real advantages in the 'general purpose' realm (speed mostly!). Oh well, gotta wait and see!

One can hope.

But there won't be another suspension wheel in the S18 weight class for the foreseeable future, at least not until new battery technology arrives. 30 mph top speed and small battery capacity have come to past too.

S18 weighs 55 lbs. So what weight and battery capacity are you hoping for?

 

[Funky]

5 hours ago, conecones said:

You'd pay $3000 for basically a fancier V10F/18L?

Why not? I will be keeping it for many years.. So that price 3000$ may look big at start. But over those many years it's okay. Ofc 3000$ if the wheel has all the bells and whistles..

Cars are expensive also.. You wont be going - buying new every year.

5 hours ago, conecones said:

I understand why IM/KS/LK are pushing towards a medium size wheel because of its larger appeal a greater audience - I just wish they went with 18" because after owning multiple 16" wheels, personally I feel this wheel size is unsafe for commuting and gives up too much for the small weight difference to 18". The Nikola+ (16") was the same weight as RS (18") just because of the stronger body on the Nikola+.

Perhaps there is a market for people who want to pay premium for a very nicely built small/medium size commuter wheel. Personally I wish to see this segment of wheels get cheaper, not more expensive. I would gladly buy a V10F or 18L to run smaller errands if it was $400 cheaper. The value ($/WH) is already pretty bad when comparing the smaller wheels against the larger and it will only get worse with these new 16" entries. 

I see a lot of complaints about weight this and weight that, but honestly I think more people need to spend more time on larger wheels and this mentality will change. I'm lucky to have commuted on everything from an Mten4 to a V13 and at the end of the day my goal is to get to work & back safely and quickly and I would gladly deal with more weight so I can stress less over over crappy road conditions and where to charge. A larger wheel can do everything a smaller wheel can (albeit not as well) but the reverse cannot be said. 

I'm also for that.. I also would like to see cheaper wheels at lighter weight. But i don't see that happening. Even all new 16" wheels are coming at 30kg weight.. 16" should be under 25kg as RULE!

I also hate 16" wheels. I personally bought 18xl just because it had 18" wheel size. And it was the lightest 18" at the time. Except 18l whitch was 2.5kg lighter - it wasn't worth the smaller battery pack for 2.5kg weight savings. And at the time when i bought the wheel, they were almost the same price - 1650vs1850$.

I personally liked Begode RS, it was my dream wheel on paper. Real 18x3" tire, no dumb suspension. Plenty speed for my needs. And battery pack was 2x times bigger, than i actually would need. But sadly it was built by Begode.. The insides of the wheel was kinda messy and it didn't show quality. Also horrible water resistance.

 

If only someone else could build something similar like RS.  1000-1500Wh battery pack would be enough. Everything else they can copy, just better/different design. And better water resistance. <<< I would gladly sell my 18xl for that and pay around ~2500$. More if it has real smart BMS..

Edited February 15, 2023 by Funky

[avevo]

On 2/10/2023 at 8:23 PM, Finn Bjerke said:

What id really love is a V11F, just 100V and more speed wouæld be great 

 

There cannot be a "V11F" without nontrivial redesign - battery, board, and then shell/frame, and then suspension, and then native support for pads/seats, and then... oops, let's label it "V14" (according to the so-called "leaks").

Uhm, something smells fishy. Why would they call it "V14" instead of "V15"? Even numbers are for non-suspension wheels: V8-V10-V12. Odd numbers are for suspension wheels: V11-V13-"V15". There is "V9" left out, but maybe they reserved it for some 12" suspension wheel.

[Uras]

15 hours ago, conecones said:

A larger wheel can do everything a smaller wheel can (albeit not as well) but the reverse cannot be said. 

well, it can. It's just the opposite argument. I saw a video from wrongway on his sherman max doing a 170km round trip. He had enough battery for each direction - 85km. The 25kg non suspension 16" wheels can do this too. My 16x has around 40% after 70km with hills and some off road - on sealed roads etc I could just make 85km. A 30kg suspension wheel should as well. The overall speed won't be as fast. As you go up in weight and size you lose out in maneuverability given equal riding skills. Also versatility of being able to lift the wheel etc if you have to.

Horses for courses. It's always the same with motorcycles, cars, bicycles - they each have their focus. You can make either one work outside it's ideal environment (small wheel on fast easy tracks, big wheel on tight technical track).

Edited February 15, 2023 by Uras

[Funky]

35 minutes ago, avevo said:

Uhm, something smells fishy. Why would they call it "V14" instead of "V15"? Even numbers are for non-suspension wheels: V8-V10-V12. Odd numbers are for suspension wheels: V11-V13-"V15". There is "V9" left out, but maybe they reserved it for some 12" suspension wheel.

You can't GO BACKWARDS!!!!! If you do that, the time and space fabric will be broken!!!!!!!! Numbers must go higher, not lower. The unspoken rule of marketing!

Dog i hope there won't be 12" wheel. 14" is already to small.. (Perfect if you ride on very, very smooth surface.)

Edited February 15, 2023 by Funky

[Uras]

Just now, Funky said:

You can't GO BACKWARDS!!!!! If you do that, the time and space fabric will be broken!!!!!!!! Numbers must go higher, not smaller. The unspoken rule of marketing!

Dog i hope there won't be 12" wheel. 14" is already to small.. (Perfect if you ride on very, very smooth surface.)

 my partner rides a 14d. She is only 47kg and is just as capable on that as I am on the 16x. She doesn't have the speed or range that I have on the 16x. Another interesting thing is that both our wheels are equivalent weight for us. 14d is 15kg, Gail is 47kg; wheel is slightly less than 1/3rd her weight. 16x is 25kg, I'm 77kg - same thing. 

[Funky]

17 minutes ago, Uras said:

 my partner rides a 14d. She is only 47kg and is just as capable on that as I am on the 16x. She doesn't have the speed or range that I have on the 16x. Another interesting thing is that both our wheels are equivalent weight for us. 14d is 15kg, Gail is 47kg; wheel is slightly less than 1/3rd her weight. 16x is 25kg, I'm 77kg - same thing. 

And i'm 124kg butt ass naked. And about 1kg extra with gear.  My 18xl is 25.6kg. Also a perfect match.  Can carry it to 3rd floor without any hassle at all.

I could have bought a bigger/faster wheel. But i didn't need the extra range/speed. My daily trip is just ~5km.. (By your logic my wheel should weight ~35kg.)  

Have also ridden 16s without any problems.. Doh i like 18xl better. 16s felt very "twitchy", any little lean/input it would feel it very hard. On 18xl you can lean more and so on..

 

I really would like V14 to be under 30kg.. But sadly i don't see that happening. And if it's 35kg what's the point of having it? At that weight you can get 18"..

Edited February 15, 2023 by Funky

[Uras]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

And i'm 124kg butt ass naked. And about 1kg extra with gear.  My 18xl is 25.6kg. Also a perfect match.  Can carry it to 3rd floor without any hassle at all.

I could have bought a bigger/faster wheel. But i didn't need the extra range/speed. My daily trip is just ~5km.. (By your logic my wheel should weight ~35kg.)  

Have also ridden 16s without any problems.. Doh i like 18xl better. 16s felt very "twitchy", any little lean/input it would feel it very hard. On 18xl you can lean more and so on..

 

I really would like V14 to be under 30kg.. But sadly i don't see that happening. And if it's 35kg what's the point of having it? At that weight you can get 18"..

It isn't my logic re the weight - someone else came up with that. I think they meant the weight ideally shouldn't exceed 1/3rd your weight. For me that works - I often incorporate some shopping in my ride. My wheel goes in the shopping trolley. It would be a pita to push the wheel around while shopping - needing to lean it against shelves etc to go hands free.

Your description of what works for you really highlights the diversity of needs for all of us. I prefer more low end torque for the technical climbs / slow maneuvering. That's the sort of riding I do. I rarely use the 80km range of my wheel. 10km rides with my dog mostly. The other advantage with a larger battery is that I only charge every 7 - 8 rides after a full charge; after an 80% charge I get around 6 rides. This bodes well for battery longevity - it will last the 5 years or so easily and still be very usable. I like the versatility of the range I have too - I can do a trip up to 40km each way, it just won't be a regular thing.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Uras

[Cerbera]

30 minutes ago, Uras said:

It isn't my logic re the weight - someone else came up with that. I think they meant the weight ideally shouldn't exceed 1/3rd your weight.

I would love to know where that originated, because I don't think it's true. I ride a Master, which is just 10 KG lighter than I am in all my armour ! Yes, it was a struggle initially, but now I don't have any trouble with the weight of it in motion and now am sufficiently practiced at keeping its weight over the centre while stationary and held with 1 leg, or trolleying, so I don't even get the tippy-ness there much anymore, or rather I am aware of the possibility, and it is manageable. 

30 minutes ago, Uras said:

It would be a pita to push the wheel around while shopping - needing to lean it against shelves etc to go hands free.

Interestingly, the fact that my EUC is bigger than the ones being discussed here actually helps in that regard. We have those little wire square weave baskets over here, and more by luck than judgement if I fold the handles down on the basket and place it on the front / top of my wheel (sitting atop the recessed display section) and then I find the fully extended trolley handle is at the same height as the wires in the basket meaning I can just reach round the handle with my trolley hand and put 4 fingers through the nearest wires before curling them up to grip the handle. Perfect result - secured-in-place basket and shopping gets carried around for you, and you have one hand free all the time for picking stuff off shelves. Now of course that shit won't fly on a 16 incher unless it really is very tall.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Cerbera

[KiwiMark]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

I would love to know where that originated, because I don't think it's true. I ride a Master, which is just 10 KG lighter than I am in all my armour

And Dawn Champion has said on a video that she doesn't find the weight of the V13 an issue for her. There is very little difference between Dawn's weight and the V13's weight.