Inmotion 16" suspension

[Funky]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

I hope the rumor got it wrong with the V14, given that Leaper Kim is coming out with a 126V, 16" wheel with 2200Wh battery. 

The safety features will win points, but the specs aren't competitive, so it may end up being another V13.

In the big heavy wheel class, the Sherman-S appears to be selling well, while the V13 seems lagging behind in sales.

As it is turning out, the sweet spot for big heavy wheels is something like a great suspension, 3600Wh, 20", high build quality, decent torque, 55-ish mph top speed, and decent weather proofing. 

For the new 16" suspension class, I think the Sherman-S 16" is going to lead the way.

To compete, you are going to need great suspension, 2200Wh battery, good torque, high build quality, 126+ volt, decent top speed, and decent weather proofing. 

I think the market wiil opt for 126+ V over high discharge 50S cells.

Also, regarding weight, the V12 HS is already 65-ish lbs. My guess is the V14 will weigh 70+ lbs.

It won't be a 60 lbs suspension wheel.

Why would you need 126v on smaller wheel? If S-S has 100v?

It won't be going faster than S-S, that's for sure. But same time having the 126v would mean it's battery will drain faster.

I think 16" wheel don't need more than 100v personally. Also by having 2200Wh battery - the weight will be around ~35kg. It's in no means a "smaller" wheel. It's another heavy fuckward wheel.  

Look at T4 battery size. It's already 30kg. Having 2200Wh battery will make it for sure more heavy, as you said 70+lbs. I don't get what's the point of having 16" wheel that is ALMOST same weight as 18". Like WTF.

[techyiam]

9 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

You know, I think the wheel size discussion here is very relevant, but one counterpoint I wanted to add was that there is more than just having the best specs, when all the specs are kind of similar. Before I bought any wheel, I REALLY wanted a Sherman Max. I got one, but because of shipping issues, it ended up going to my brother. He is riding it now. As fate would have it, the V12 HT would be the very first wheel I would get. 

My point is that, I've seen the display on the Sherman Max, I know about the app situation, and setting the wheel up. It is just MUCH MUCH better on the V12 HT. Is the Max faster? Will it go farther? Yep. I'm still thinking about one, but honestly if I never get one, it would be ok. Inmotion's quality and polish is just so much better than the competition. 

I think this really does matter. For this reason I think the V14 might be a sleeper of a contender, but I think it could have a lot of potential. 

I think I know where you are coming from, and I respect your counterpoint. I think it is valid.

However, I am not sure how large that market is.

As you become a more advanced rider, you will want better specs.

 

If a manufacturer wants a top selling wheel, they must make one that appeals to as wide a spectrum of riders as possible. 

In the past, beginners were warned against learning on a Sherman. Nowadays, some first timers want to start on a Sherman-S or V13. They justify their decisions based on their preference for high build quality, and performance that they won't outgrow anytime soon.

Then you have those who like to ride off-road. 

This class of wheels could also appeal to people who like to do basic paved city riding to high speed urban commuting. 

The high top speed will give most riders a peace of mind because the headroom is so generous. And advanced rider will appreciate the agility and low effort performance, and a high top speed that they can tamed by manually monitoring pwm.

 

I believe once a rider gets more experienced and become a more advanced rider, the niceties of an onboard touch display takes a backseat to some of the more important specs.

For myself, I own both a V12 and an Abrams. I don't find the onboard display and the buttons on the side lacking on the Abrams. The setup on the Abrams should be similar to the Sherman Max. Sure, the V12 has more settings, but I find what is provided on my Abrams is adequate. 

The one thing that I do like on my V12 that is not on the Abrams is dynamic tilt-back. But if the Sherman-S 16" has a top speed of 80+ km/h, then I would be OK, because the headroom would be enough for my use case, and the dynamic tilt-back becomes less important. 

 

The T4 is a bared bones wheel. And it is still 70.6 lbs. according to eWheels. The V14 will have V13-like build quality, and thus will weigh more. The S22 with 2220Wh battery only weighs 77 lbs.

I don't see much of a market for a wheel that weighs 70+ lbs. with only 100V, 1750 Wh battery in 4P, and charges a premium price, when there is a competitor with good build quality that weighs about the same with 126V, 2220 Wh battery in 4P for about the same price. Unless, the V14 can be priced like the low qualityT4, even though the V14 will have V13-like quality, assuming that the V14 can compete with the T4 in performance.

To charge a premium price, first and foremost, the wheel must have class leading performance. I don't see how 100V, 1750Wh is going to cut it.

 

Riders who want a light and less expensive suspension wheel will get the S18.

For riders who don't need the speed and can live with a 60 lbs. wheel will well served by the V11 for urban roundabout. 

For now, the T4 and the S22 Pro are the go to wheels for off-road, that is if you want suspension, and a wheel that works well out-of-the-box without needing any mods.

But things can change with the new crop of 16" suspension wheel release.

Begode Hero flopped miserably due to premium pricing and lack luster performance specs (at the time, the S20 touted 126V, 2220Wh battery). Come to think of it, the Hero is a 100V wheel with 1800Wh battery, and weighs about 80 lbs.

Edited February 8, 2023 by techyiam

[Uras]

16 hours ago, techyiam said:

To compete, you are going to need great suspension, 2200Wh battery, good torque, high build quality, 126+ volt, decent top speed, and decent weather proofing. 

I'd be happy with 1600 - 1800 battery. 1600 should be fine and make a reasonable difference to weight and dimensions. I don't buy into the bigger is better thing at all. I do want lots of torque though - the equivalent of my ks16x (v12ht or hs) would be fine. For me this wheel would be awesome in the tight stuff - I'd consider v13 or sherman s type wheel if I had to commute on roads etc at speed.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Uras

[techyiam]

49 minutes ago, Uras said:

I'd be happy with 1600 - 1800 battery. 1600 should be fine and make a reasonable difference to weight and dimensions. I don't buy into the bigger is better thing at all. I do want lots of torque though - the equivalent of my ks16x (v12ht or hs) would be fine.

Good data point.

If the V14 has 1750 Wh of battery and 100V, and the Sherman-S 16" has 2220Wh of battery and 126 V, and price of the V14 is jusy a bit less than the Sherman-S 16", which wheel would you buy?

I am assuming that the V14 will have build quality like the V13, which isn't cheap to ptoduce, and the Sherman-S 16" will have the hydraulic suspension of the Sherman-S. Basically in each leg, everything is sealed as one unit in oil. Hard to beat.

 

For myself, I already ride a V12 that has 100V and 1750Wh of battery. When I ride at higher speeds, battery drains frighteningly fast.

The top speed of the V12 drops with battery charge remaining. 

When I got on a Sherman-S to try out, it did not feel more difficult to handle than my V12. It felt different but it was easily manageable. I think the 20" tire will take time to adapt because I need to find the right power pads and set them up for me, and for me to adapt to them.

Edited February 9, 2023 by techyiam

[Uras]

Just now, techyiam said:

If the V14 has 1750 Wh of battery and 100V, and the Sherman-S 16" has 2220Wh of battery and 126 V, and price of the V14 is jusy a bit less than the Sherman-S 16", which wheel would you buy?

by the above specs, the IM . I won't be buying anything until it has been out for at least a year though  and then only when there's a deal going. That will probably be when a newer model is released. This segment is the one that interests me most though.

[Funky]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Good data point.

If the V14 has 1750 Wh of battery and 100V, and the Sherman-S 16" has 2220Wh of battery and 126 V, and price of the V14 is jusy a bit less than the Sherman-S 16", which wheel would you buy?

I am assuming that the V14 will have build quality like the V13, which isn't cheap to ptoduce, and the Sherman-S 16" will have the hydraulic suspension of the Sherman-S. Basically in each leg, everything is sealed as one unit in oil. Hard to beat.

 

For myself, I already ride a V12 that has 100V and 1750Wh of battery. When I ride at higher speeds, battery drains frighteningly fast.

The top speed of the V12 drops with battery charge remaining. 

When I got on a Sherman-S to try out, it did not feel more difficult to handle than my V12. It felt different but it was easily manageable. I think the 20" tire will take time to adapt because I need to find the right power pads and set them up for me, and for me to adapt to them.

For me personally first thing would be built quality. (How waterproof, well built, so on..) Second one will be weight. Third will be price. Don't care even if they cost 500$ extra either way.

As both of them will be over 30kg.. Neither are on my mind as buying option.  Simply as i don't need what they offer. 2 much speed. 2 much range. 2 much weight. 

Doh 100v vs 126v they both will have about same real world range. S-S mini may even have less.. Maybe?

More performance - More weight.. (I even have "test" carried sherman in store, to see how heavy it was.. I could do it quit easy. I simply don't wanna carry that weight one-handed everyday.) I want a wheel that you can carry one-handed! Not using two-hands and logging it around like a moron.  Even when i'm carrying it to 3rd floor 2-4 times a day. No thanks!

Edited February 9, 2023 by Funky

[Uras]

5 minutes ago, Funky said:

As both of them will be over 30kg

My 16x is 2200watt motor, 1554 battery, and is 25kg. I assume the cells are 18650. I also assume that a new inmotion will be 21700 cells which should equate to less real estate and weight for a similar power. I would expect the inmotion, given what little we know, to be under 30kg; it should be.

I like torque, but at the low end (climbing). I would hope that these new 16" wheels will focus on that and not extra speed. I don't see speed as the forte of 16" wheels.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Uras

[Funky]

12 minutes ago, Uras said:

My 16x is 2200watt motor, 1554 battery, and is 25kg. I assume the cells are 1850. I also assume that a new inmotion will be 21700 cells which should equate to less real estate and weight for a similar power. I would expect the inmotion, given what little we know, to be under 30kg; it should be

And my 18xl is 18" EUC and weight also 25kg.. (Same thing as 16X.)

Add suspension. More metal build (Not like our KingSong "old" plastic cases/innings.) It will be over ~30kg, because T4 is already 30kg. 

Especially if InMotion follows V13 build, it will be ~35kg.

That "gel" they fill the battery casings, between cells gives weight alone. (I'm saying it will be ~35kg. Same way i guessed V13 weight.) V12 is already ~30kg.  

Edited February 9, 2023 by Funky

[Uras]

Just now, Funky said:

because T4 is already 30kg

To me that bodes well; motor is 2500w, battery is 1800wh, and it has suspension. I'm not contradicting you, and you may well be right. If I was building the new wheel though, that would be my first point on the white board of the design team. Focus on the strengths of the smaller wheel, rather than try to make it compete with the larger wheels. If done right it should run rings around the big boys in the tight stuff 

[Funky]

13 minutes ago, Uras said:

To me that bodes well; motor is 2500w, battery is 1800wh, and it has suspension. I'm not contradicting you, and you may well be right. If I was building the new wheel though, that would be my first point on the white board of the design team. Focus on the strengths of the smaller wheel, rather than try to make it compete with the larger wheels. If done right it should run rings around the big boys in the tight stuff 

That's the sad part.. They are trying to make "small" wheels perform like BIG ONES.. (That's why i keep saying 2 fast, 2 much range.. - Those are made for big wheels, not small.)

I miss the years when V8, ks14d, 16s, Teslas where made.. Wheels in 20kg weight. Not in 40kg+  (Okey i can agree they are to-to small for this time and age, even for me.)

But 16X and 18XL is perfect ballpark for speed/range/weight. They weight 25kg only. Add simple suspension it should weight under 30kg. How heavy is the suspension itself.. 3 max 5 kg.

 

Yet people want to go 40mph+ on 16"... And for 100km+ range. (Throwing out of window that it's meant to be a "smaller" wheel.)

Edited February 9, 2023 by Funky

[Uras]

38 minutes ago, Funky said:

Yet people want to go 40mph+ on 16"... And for 100km+ range. (Throwing out of window that it's meant to be a "smaller" wheel.)

Absolutely. It's the same with the v13 crowd; they expect it to be great at everything. They're prepared to skew the truth to make it seem that way too 

I think the other people that a 30kg or less suspension wheel would suit, are smaller people or folk who aren't so strong. Getting a wheel up stairs or into a car, just general daily use. Dawn had trouble just holding the v13 up and getting onto it - the static weight of it is a problem for her. This will also be an issue with slow maneuvering (tight technical stuff). 

My partner is 47kg and the 14d is an awesome match for her; she can lift it and easily control it. Because of her weight she can get a realistic 40 - 50km on it - down to around 40%, which is where things start to go south. It seems to climb as well with her as the 16x does with me - I'm around 80kg ready to ride.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Uras

[Mango]

15 hours ago, techyiam said:

The T4 is a bared bones wheel. And it is still 70.6 lbs.

I've done a complete teardown of my T4, and I can't think how Begode could make it any lighter other than switching  the metal to titanium and carbon fibre (both expensive options) so I just accept that it weighs as it does.

People shouldn't put too much worry into the weight of the wheels. I'm confident these EUC manufacturers strive to save as much weight as possible on their wheels while hitting certain performance targets.

[Uras]

5 hours ago, Mango said:

I've done a complete teardown of my T4, and I can't think how Begode could make it any lighter other than switching  the metal to titanium and carbon fibre (both expensive options) so I just accept that it weighs as it does.

People shouldn't put too much worry into the weight of the wheels. I'm confident these EUC manufacturers strive to save as much weight as possible on their wheels while hitting certain performance targets.

The T4 looks on the money. I think that's what funky, techiam and I are saying. And it's at 30kg. 2500 motor, 1800 battery, 100mm of suspension @ 30kg. Interesting to note that wrongway and his friends think the T4 is the pick of the new wheels.

What we're saying is that it doesn't need to be more than that - it's a great combo. Really this should be the most versatile segment - suspended 16" wheels. For me it's tight stuff - shitful wonky potholed footpaths and single track. Today I was remembering Bangkok - I rode a motor scooter through the center several times. It's really packed tight and all slow maneuvering between stationary cars - a 16" wheel 30kg or less would be an awesome choice - or an mten4 . 16" wheel has more versatility than an mten4 though, just as it does when compared to those 40+ kg monsters. If they go more than 30kg I think that's a mistake. Begode has shown that it can be done with great torque, battery and suspension. They've set the bar. 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Uras

[Pablocavern]

Hello, people. I think different desires are being put forward for different needs. I live in Spain and here scooters and EUC's are not supposed to ride faster than 15.5mph. A quite strict regulation is being created. For now we can't ride on interurban roads. On the other hand it takes me 25min from downtown with my V10f going 25mph (I live in Madrid). Cars can go 31mph.

I mean, to me it makes no sense to want to go more than 31mph. The maximum power for practical use would be that of the v12ht. And the autonomy of the v10f is enough for me for daily use, although when I do some routes it is a bit short (I hardly do any routes).

I think a lot of people, at least in Europe, want a practical and fun commuter that they can ride up stairs. The other day I was testing to see which EUC would be too heavy. I am stronger than average and can handle 30kg, but 40kg is too much to be comfortable to lift when there are 30 step stairs. I think most men (unless they do weights) will find an 18kg to 30kg commuter practical. And women will prefer 14kg to 25kg. Weight can only be reduced with batteries and smaller tires, especially if you want to add suspension. I would rather have suspension than a lot of range and power because it would give me safety and comfort.  

I agree that for sport use or for traveling the EUC can be too big, but I think this type of vehicle will become a commuter very used because it is like scooters but smaller and more fun, people just need to lose the fear of them. I really don't know if consumers are very different in Europe, USA and other places in the world and I guess it depends on how cities are built in each country. Anyway, nowadays the consumer profile seems to be a bit crazy people who love risk and speed, but we will see in the future if this continues. 

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, Pablocavern said:

I live in Spain and here scooters and EUC's are not supposed to ride faster than 15.5mph. A quite strict regulation is being created. For now we can't ride on interurban roads. On the other hand it takes me 25min from downtown with my V10f going 25mph (I live in Madrid).

 

13 minutes ago, Pablocavern said:

I think a lot of people, at least in Europe, want a practical and fun commuter that they can ride up stairs. The other day I was testing to see which EUC would be too heavy. I am stronger than average and can handle 30kg,

The S18 or the V11 are suspension wheels that would fit the bill for this use case.

14 minutes ago, Pablocavern said:

Anyway, nowadays the consumer profile seems to be a bit crazy people who love risk and speed, but we will see in the future if this continues. 

In the US, the probability is pretty high for the trend to continue. They can ride on the roads and past cars.

[Pablocavern]

14 hours ago, techyiam said:

The S18 or the V11 are suspension wheels that would fit the bill for this use case.

I agree, although I wish the s18 didn't have power issues due to the type of battery it has and that the v11 suspension would be updated

14 hours ago, techyiam said:

In the US, the probability is pretty high for the trend to continue. They can ride on the roads and past cars.

From a subjective enjoyment point of view it makes sense, although from a technical and economic point of view an electric motorcycle is just as expensive and has performance better suited for speeds between 32 and 70mph. I am thinking of reasonable uses for the general public, as I understand there are many particularities. On the other hand, up to what speed is it legal to ride an EUC in the US?blockquote widget

Edited February 10, 2023 by Pablocavern

[soulson]

17 hours ago, Pablocavern said:

...up to what speed is it legal to ride an EUC in the US?

It varies by state. I don't think the United States has any federal law about it.

[techyiam]

18 hours ago, Pablocavern said:

from a technical and economic point of view an electric motorcycle is just as expensive and has performance better suited for speeds between 32 and 70mph. I am thinking of reasonable uses for the general public, as I understand there are many particularities.

Can you name these motorcycles?

Also, during rush hour commute, I can use the bike lanes and bike paths to easily slip through congestion.

I can go fast, and I can go slow. I can ride in places where motorcycles cannot. Electric wheels are so flexible.

[Uras]

18 hours ago, Pablocavern said:

electric motorcycle is just as expensive and has performance better suited for speeds between 32 and 70mph

I didn't think e motorcycles were that viable - lots of extra weight and wind resistance. OK at city speeds, but then you're competing with euc etc

 

[Roadpower]

59 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Can you name these motorcycles?

Also, during rush hour commute, I can use the bike lanes and bike paths to easily slip through congestion.

I can go fast, and I can go slow. I can ride in places where motorcycles cannot. Electric wheels are so flexible.

These reasons are why I quit riding my motorcycle several years ago. The wheel is just so much more flexible, and somewhat shockingly I can get around the city faster on my wheel than on the motorcycle. But the real coup de grâce is the fact that I can throw the EUC into a vehicle while with the motorcycle it is just like a car, wherever I last parked it is where I am stuck leaving it.

[KiwiMark]

Worth selling my V12HT to buy the V14? I guess we'll see how good this wheel is. I'll also see how I find riding my V12HT as I get used to my Sherman S - will I grow to hate any non-suspension wheel? Maybe I'll be OK with the non-suspension wheel for short trips, still having the Sherman S for comfort & range on longer rides. With the rumours about a mini-Sherman S 16" suspension wheel from LK - it will be interesting to compare specs and features between the two if the rumours are true. For me - it's just going to be a matter of wait and see.

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

Worth selling my V12HT to buy the V14? I guess we'll see how good this wheel is. I'll also see how I find riding my V12HT as I get used to my Sherman S - will I grow to hate any non-suspension wheel? Maybe I'll be OK with the non-suspension wheel for short trips, still having the Sherman S for comfort & range on longer rides. With the rumours about a mini-Sherman S 16" suspension wheel from LK - it will be interesting to compare specs and features between the two if the rumours are true. For me - it's just going to be a matter of wait and see.

You're hooked! Just like the rest of us. 😄

Didn't you just buy two very capable wheels, and you are already contemplating requisitioning a rumored wheel.

Logically, from a non-electric-wheel SO's perspective, she may think you need help.

Welcome to the Asylum! 

[Uras]

2 hours ago, KiwiMark said:

Worth selling my V12HT to buy the V14?

The v12ht does look an awesome wheel. You have the luxury of that and the sherman s; just enjoy them for a year and get whatever of these new wheels shows itself to be best at that point. Hopefully all problems will be dealt with by then.

I'm enjoying my non suspension wheel - getting used to soaking up the bumps, carving and riding skinnies. I also want to start practicing hopping up kerbs, doing the pendulum, riding backwards. I think I will keep this wheel when I get a new one; that way I won't have to wait if one is out of action (eg changing tire). I can even have the option of street tire on 16x, off road tire on whatever else I have.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Uras

[Pablocavern]

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Can you name these motorcycles?

In Spain, scooter-type motorcycles can be bought for 3,000 Euros (4,000 - 1,000 Euros paid by the state) with 60m of autonomy and a maximum speed of 65mph. https://becomove.com/nextmojito/

5 hours ago, techyiam said:

Also, during rush hour commute, I can use the bike lanes and bike paths to easily slip through congestion.

I can go fast, and I can go slow. I can ride in places where motorcycles cannot. Electric wheels are so flexible.

I agree that electric motorcycles only make sense for the city. In that sense I think that the EUC can not replace some capabilities of motorcycles and cars, such as driving on highways.  In most European cities, streets can be driven at low speeds (at 31mph and in some at 20mph), which is ideal for using the EUC. So why do I want more speed than, say, 35mph which would already be more than double the legal EUC speed in Europe? If I need to go 65mph it is because I am going to use the freeway and then I need a motorcycle or a car. I agree with you that the EUC is the perfect vehicle for city streets, but for that reason it shouldn't be too heavy and doesn't need to be too fast or have a huge range for everyday use.

I think it's great that there are EUCs of all kinds for those who want to race or go on trips, but seeing the EUC as the perfect commuter, it seems strange to me that manufacturers are not paying much attention to the most common urban uses.

 

3 hours ago, KiwiMark said:

Worth selling my V12HT to buy the V14? I guess we'll see how good this wheel is. I'll also see how I find riding my V12HT as I get used to my Sherman S - will I grow to hate any non-suspension wheel? Maybe I'll be OK with the non-suspension wheel for short trips, still having the Sherman S for comfort & range on longer rides. With the rumours about a mini-Sherman S 16" suspension wheel from LK - it will be interesting to compare specs and features between the two if the rumours are true. For me - it's just going to be a matter of wait and see.

I'm looking forward to it because I'd like to trade my v10f for an EUC with more torque and suspension. Let's see if Inmotion really delivers on their supposed attention to reliability and safety. The v13 was supposed to be the best built wheel and already they are finding faults, such as poor quality bolts in the motor that have to be replaced.. A distributor in Madrid has published a video explaining that he is going to have to return the 60 v13s that have just arrived to Inmotion, commenting that he is fed up with the companies and that maybe he is in the wrong profession. 

I was excited to think that the v14 was going to incorporate the supposed quality of the v13 but now I am suspicious of any new wheel. 
 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Pablocavern
Traduction fails

[2disbetter]

10 hours ago, Pablocavern said:

In Spain, scooter-type motorcycles can be bought for 3,000 Euros (4,000 - 1,000 Euros paid by the state) with 60m of autonomy and a maximum speed of 65mph. https://becomove.com/nextmojito/

I agree that electric motorcycles only make sense for the city. In that sense I think that the EUC can not replace some capabilities of motorcycles and cars, such as driving on highways.  In most European cities, streets can be driven at low speeds (at 31mph and in some at 20mph), which is ideal for using the EUC. So why do I want more speed than, say, 35mph which would already be more than double the legal EUC speed in Europe? If I need to go 65mph it is because I am going to use the freeway and then I need a motorcycle or a car. I agree with you that the EUC is the perfect vehicle for city streets, but for that reason it shouldn't be too heavy and doesn't need to be too fast or have a huge range for everyday use.

I think it's great that there are EUCs of all kinds for those who want to race or go on trips, but seeing the EUC as the perfect commuter, it seems strange to me that manufacturers are not paying much attention to the most common urban uses.

 

I'm looking forward to it because I'd like to trade my v10f for an EUC with more torque and suspension. Let's see if Inmotion really delivers on their supposed attention to reliability and safety. The v13 was supposed to be the best built wheel and already they are finding faults, such as poor quality bolts in the motor that have to be replaced.. A distributor in Madrid has published a video explaining that he is going to have to return the 60 v13s that have just arrived to Inmotion, commenting that he is fed up with the companies and that maybe he is in the wrong profession. 

I was excited to think that the v14 was going to incorporate the supposed quality of the v13 but now I am suspicious of any new wheel. 
 

I think the verdict is still out on whether the bolts are the issue, or just cannot be properly re-torqued after removing them. If the bolts on the motor are the only quality issue the wheel has, then Inmotion still hit it out of the box. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by 2disbetter