King Song S16 Speculation (no confirmation yet, only rumor)

[UniVehje]

51 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Torque. Using a torque motor at higher voltage allows it to have a higher theoretical top end speed (which they've evidently chosen to limit in firmware). With the combo I can see how you would get low end torque and somewhat higher speed.

Torque will get you up 45 degree slopes (which you have to find under bridges) but not make the wheel feel any easier to accelerate. 16" wheel would feel easier than 18" in any case. Another reason for high voltage, apart from top speed and riding under bridges, is higher number on spec sheet. 

16" suspension wheel with decent battery for most people and lighter weight would have large markets. A light, easy to manoeuvre, snappy and suspended wheel is missing from the market at the moment. At <2000 € price point it would be a success. For this use 16X is already perfect, just add suspension and the new KS styling. 

[Rollin-on-1]

There seems to be a lot of focus on only having 3 categories of riding: commuter, hardcotre offroading, and cruising.  I think there is another category and that is pure adrenaline street fighter - a wheel with breakneck acceleration, strong braking, suspension for jumping curbs and ramps, and a top speed that matches the existing 100v 16" wheels like the Nik+ and V12. 

 

I think the S20 mounted with the smaller rim, suspension size reduction, and possible the 2p high discharge cells would be a great addition to the lineup.  It would kill the V12 and Nik+ which have both held a large market share and it would have the wow factor that would continue to bring in new riders.

[Rollin-on-1]

5 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Torque will get you up 45 degree slopes (which you have to find under bridges) but not make the wheel feel any easier to accelerate. 16" wheel would feel easier than 18" in any case. Another reason for high voltage, apart from top speed and riding under bridges, is higher number on spec sheet. 

16" suspension wheel with decent battery for most people and lighter weight would have large markets. A light, easy to manoeuvre, snappy and suspended wheel is missing from the market at the moment. At <2000 € price point it would be a success. For this use 16X is already perfect, just add suspension and the new KS styling. 

Agreed...but speed needs to be more than 16x speed.  I am a happy 16x owner wishing for an addition 10mph.

[Funky]

4 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Agreed...but speed needs to be more than 16x speed.  I am a happy 16x owner wishing for an addition 10mph.

Have you heard about S20?   Or any "other" heavy wheel.

As been told, speed on 16" isn't that great?

Edited February 2, 2022 by Funky

[Rollin-on-1]

5 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

There seems to be a lot of focus on only having 3 categories of riding: commuter, hardcotre offroading, and cruising.  I think there is another category and that is pure adrenaline street fighter - a wheel with breakneck acceleration, strong braking, suspension for jumping curbs and ramps, and a top speed that matches the existing 100v 16" wheels like the Nik+ and V12. 

 

I think the S20 mounted with the smaller rim, suspension size reduction, and possible the 2p high discharge cells would be a great addition to the lineup.  It would kill the V12 and Nik+ which have both held a large market share and it would have the wow factor that would continue to bring in new riders.

Forgot to mention agility...but we all assume agility is a given for this wheel 😁

[Rollin-on-1]

Just now, Funky said:

Have you heard about S20?   Or any "other" heavy wheel.

Tell me more about this S20 that you speak of

[Funky]

Just now, Rollin-on-1 said:

Tell me more about this S20 that you speak of

Of course good sir, here you go.

xDD

[Rollin-on-1]

7 minutes ago, Funky said:

As been told, speed on 16" isn't that great?

V12 and Nik+ popularity would suggest otherwise.  

Edited February 2, 2022 by Rollin-on-1

[Funky]

4 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

V12 and Nik+ popularity would suggest otherwise.  

Yup.. pretty heavy. Point made. Would go S20 then.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Funky

[Rollin-on-1]

2 minutes ago, Funky said:

Yup.. pretty heavy. Point made.

I fixed my previous post to clarify I was talking about speed on a 16" wheel.

[Funky]

6 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

I fixed my previous post to clarify I was talking about speed on a 16" wheel.

Is there big difference 16" 18" 20"? If you are riding at "speed"? At speed you mainly are going in straight line or so? And for that bigger wheel is better, same time bigger euc have more range and all bell and whistles. 

Sure like i said before we all love speed. But at what speed do we stop?

I don't see point of going faster than 50km on 16" Sure we can go, but why doh..

Edited February 2, 2022 by Funky

[Funky]

More speed normally means more weight.. And if the weight at the end is the same, as any other wheel in market. Just added "suspension" it's meh product.

Now if there where something "very light" with suspension. Same time cheap, because of lack of batteries, means that the euc would be pretty cheap ~1500-2000$. For new ridders that price point would be more appealing. And as mentioned, that place in market is "empty".

Edited February 2, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

13 minutes ago, Funky said:

As been told, speed on 16" isn't that great?

My reluctance to go fast on a 16" wheel may very well be decided by my wheel's design (weight distribution?) and tire choice. Because my current setup loves to tramline and when I hit a bump in a sweeping curve it wants to yaw steer off my chosen line, I have to be extra attentive to road conditions that make the wheel decide it's time to go all nimble on me. It's enough to keep my speed in curves down, and to only go rapidly when I know the path ahead is free of seams and side slopes and other features that want to pull the wheel around.

On my 18" wheel (with knobby, that affects things), things in the road don't make it want to go sideways or yaw turn on me. It's just way more comfortable because my stress level isn't as high.

I completely understand the success of the Nik+, the added speed and range is a definite bonus... if only it wasn't an🥚. With the V12, IM seems to have ironed out some of the things that are scary on my 16X so obviously it's possible to make a 16" that is more comfortable going faster. All that said, and excluding the fact that V12 issues may be keeping V12 riders on other wheels or at home, around here most of the fast and furious are doing their thing on 18" wheels or larger.

[Rollin-on-1]

20 minutes ago, Funky said:

 

I don't see point of going faster than 50km on 16" Sure we can go, but why doh..

If you can't see the point, I'm afraid we can not be friends.  😆😆

By the way, I am never riding in a straight line at 30mph!  It is the agility at speed that makes the 16" so amazing!!!

[UniVehje]

17 minutes ago, Funky said:

Is there big difference 16" 18" 20"? If you are riding at "speed"? At speed you mainly are going in straight line or so? And for that bigger wheel is better, same time bigger euc have more range and all bell and whistles. 

There is a difference between 16" (16x3) and 18" (18x3) wheels. But there are no differences between 18", 19" and 20" wheels as they are exactly the same size. They are all 18x3" tires (or 2.75-14). Some companies just like to use bigger numbers for them. 

But regarding the difference at speed. 16" wheels have smaller turning circle and are more agile. At higher speeds, when you usually ride in straight line, this results in twitchy behaviour. It's not bad but definitely noticeable. With 18x3" wheels the ride is more relaxed as small body movements don't affect the wheel that much. It feels safer to ride but at low speeds the larger turning circle makes it less agile. 

[Paul A]

Would it be possible to have two motors within the one rim?

Two concentric motors, with different radii?

Larger radius for torque?

Smaller radius for speed?

Cut off electrical power to the not needed electromagnet to allow free wheeling........continue electrical power to the required motor?

 

Circle within a circle.

Motor within another motor.

[yoos]

20 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Would it be possible to have two motors within the one rim?

You can make variable-winding motors (i.e. a motor with variable Kv so that you can effectively switch between HT and HS) but it seems complicated and I have only seen it in papers/reports but no mention of working applications. Making two separate motors is even less sensible, it's better to spend the weight and cost on more batteries/higher voltage.

[RayRay]

21 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Would it be possible to have two motors within the one rim?

Two concentric motors, with different radii?

Larger radius for torque?

Smaller radius for speed?

Cut off electrical power to the not needed electromagnet to allow free wheeling........continue electrical power to the required motor?

 

Circle within a circle.

Motor within another motor.

I know I've seen that someplace before...

[Scottie]

2 minutes ago, yoos said:

25 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Would it be possible to have two motors within the one rim?

You can make variable-winding motors (i.e. a motor with variable Kv so that you can effectively switch between HT and HS) but it seems complicated and I have only seen it in papers/reports but no mention of working applications.

This sounds like another thread where I had a very similar question.

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, Eucner said:

Of course I can see the adjustable suspension, but where is the dampening? 

It gets damp when you ride in the rain, duh.  If that’s not enough, squeeze in some foam and you got your damper… 

 

12 hours ago, RayRay said:

I don't know how the S16 can differentiate itself from the S20 and still compete in this market.

Easy: By targeting a different target audience altogether. Not the niche group of speedsters or us hard core off-roaders, but the larger group of more generic style riders.

12 hours ago, RayRay said:

The S16 needs to be as fast as possible.

It really doesn’t. People who think like that won’t buy KS and IM wheels anyway. It needs to have a great balance of everything, so that it works well as a product as a whole.

12 hours ago, RayRay said:

When was the last time a new wheel model came out that was slower than that companies previous new model release?

Usually they’re not, which is why people have been asking for a new wheel in the small & light category.

Btw, doesn’t GW have a few HT only models? So whenever they were published, at least. And the Nikola 84V.

12 hours ago, RayRay said:

If the S16 isn't any faster (than S20), then they need to market it as "The Torque Master" and make it as off-road capable as possible.

The S20 is already the off-road king. No point in trying to eat from the same plate.

11 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

It would kill the V12 and Nik+ which have both held a large market share

I don’t see how it would bring in more (or even as many) new riders than the S20. Besides, I don’t think wild jumps or speeding through anywhere are what makes people think that that’s what they want to learn and do. Most beginners are absolutely sure that they’ll never even want to reach 25mph.

 What does lure them in is a wheel that they feel is targeted for their current needs. One that enables them to see the wheel and riding in general enter their current life. Age old beginner models don’t do that very well.

V12 and Nik+ are both heavy wheels, both with a lot of competition in the heavy wheel category already. The S16 would have much less competition, and it would stand to conquer a much larger slice in the V10F/Nikola/16S size & weight group. You know, the group that are usually bought as the first wheel anyway.

Edited February 3, 2022 by mrelwood

[Tawpie]

@mrelwood -- now I wonder if you're right? What if the S16 is more of a general purpose product intended for a much wider audience? That makes a lot of sense actually. Decent performance but more accessible. A grown up 16S, refreshed. Intended to get more people into riding. Something for the weekend rider. Huh. You might very well be on to something.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

15 hours ago, RayRay said:

When was the last time a new wheel model came out that was slower than that companies previous new model release?

Probably the Inmotion V8s, late last year...

Edited February 3, 2022 by The Fat Unicyclist

[Funky]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t see how it would bring in more (or even as many) new riders than the S20. Besides, I don’t think wild jumps or speeding through anywhere are what makes people think that that’s what they want to learn and do. Most beginners are absolutely sure that they’ll never even want to reach 25mph.

 What does lure them in is a wheel that they feel is targeted for their current needs. One that enables them to see the wheel and riding in general enter their current life. Age old beginner models don’t do that very well.

V12 and Nik+ are both heavy wheels, both with a lot of competition in the heavy wheel category already. The S16 would have much less competition, and it would stand to conquer a much larger slice in the V10F/Nikola/16S size & weight group. You know, the group that are usually bought as the first wheel anyway.

Exactly what i have been saying.  Simply there is none light wheel with suspension. S16 would bring KS a lot more money, than being another "heavy" wheel.

I did not want to buy even 18xl, because speed wise 16s would be "plenty" for me.(riding at top speed mostly..) But being 2x weight, i knew i need something "bigger". And i think 50km speed on 18xl is "plenty" for me.

[Rollin-on-1]

I see a lot of people advocating to make the S16 a wheel for beginners.  I am in the camp that new riders benefit from learning on a non-suspension wheel because it builds better fundamentals.  I think the entry level wheels in the KS line up are fine and do not need an upgrade.  Putting a suspension on them will only result in a new generation of riders learning poor technique because the suspension allows them get away with poor technique.

Let's face it the flashy stuff gets attention.  So a bunch of videos of a quick and agile street fighter will attract new people to the community.  It will be a great competitor at Apple Valley Speedway and other small track EUC races that will be popping up as the sport grows.   The S16 should be a wheel for enthusiasts. Will new riders necessarily buy that wheel? Some will some won't.  But it will bring new, would-be riders to KS.

I don't argue against the need for a light commuter wheel with suspension.  I just think it should come after the S16.  Inmotion and Begode are facing a PR struggle right now and if KS can deliver the S20 and a similarly wowing S16 back to back, they could very well solidify themselves as the best and most innovative EUC manufacturer.  Then, they can deliver the suspension commuter that so many are advocating for in this thread.

Just my $0.02.  Thanks for reading!

[Eucner]

47 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

I see a lot of people advocating to make the S16 a wheel for beginners.

It would be also good for all law abiding citizen. They are not all beginners. Many countries limit legal speed to 25 km/h. Light weight HT suspension wheel with 60 km/h free spin and hollow motor would be a great addition for market. It would be handy when commuting and shopping. For me the suspension would be mostly a safety feature. Especially when it is dark.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Eucner
typo