King Song S16 Speculation (no confirmation yet, only rumor)

[yoos]

@Rollin-on-1 You suggest that light, slow wheels are necessarily beginner wheels and that people inevitably upgrade to heavier, faster wheels as their skill grows. This might reflect the general activity in this forum (and other such places where mostly enthusiasts are active) but appears incorrect to me. There are plenty riders who consciously choose small/light wheels over the "high-end" monsters. The S16 does not need to be a "beginner" wheel, it could be the "final" or main wheel for many users, or at least a wheel that does its things better than any other. Notice how the mten3 is a popular entry in many wheel collections. There really is more to "wowing" than speed and torque. As a personal example, I am more eager to see a new laptop release that is 30% lighter than mine rather than a laptop that is 50% faster. Or take cars: max speed and range are irrelevant to 90% of grown-up buyer. Even torque is secondary to price, comfort, upkeep costs. [Obviously, this was different when cars were just invented].

Anyway, whether it's a beginner wheel or not, it should not compete with S20 or any other 30+kg wheels. If you want to compete with an elephant you have to be an elephant. No sense in building another Kingsong elephant but now with 16" tires. 

[Rollin-on-1]

24 minutes ago, yoos said:

@Rollin-on-1 You suggest that light, slow wheels are necessarily beginner wheels and that people inevitably upgrade to heavier, faster wheels as their skill grows. 

You may have inferred that, but I didn't imply that.  Simply that a new rider shouldn't start on a suspension wheel.  

I also don't think that tge S16 should compete with the S20 or be heavy.  Wasn't it you that mentioned a 32S2P battery config with high discharge cells?  I think you were onto something there!

A suspension commuter can come later (or the S16 could be both, but it shouldn't be limited to speeds below 50kph).  As long as it is a short range wheel, there is no need to sacrifice speed or be heavy.

[Funky]

In reality it doesn't matter what we are saying here. xD Because S16 design, prototypes, should already be made somewhere..

We all are just saying that we want in next wheel. <3 And what we think would be best.. Some would enjoy next "heavy" wheel like V12 but with suspension, speed, torque.

Some would like "very light" wheel for daily use. Like riding 5-10km from home to job, store.

And as mentioned, most city already have "electric scooters" and their speed limit is ~25kmh.. If rules are made for euc in general, i don't see them letting ride with cars, and going faster than 30kmh on walk paths. At that point the big euc's get completely useless in city riding. Okey maybe bike lanes, but those also have speed limits.

Sure you can go riding in woods, place where are no people.. 

[Funky]

25 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

You may have inferred that, but I didn't imply that.  Simply that a new rider shouldn't start on a suspension wheel.  

I also don't think that tge S16 should compete with the S20 or be heavy.  Wasn't it you that mentioned a 32S2P battery config with high discharge cells?  I think you were onto something there!

A suspension commuter can come later (or the S16 could be both, but it shouldn't be limited to speeds below 50kph).  As long as it is a short range wheel, there is no need to sacrifice speed or be heavy.

Then again why not? I don't see myself buying another wheel for at least 5 years.. And if i have to chose one, i would chose the euc that i would need for my daily riding.

If people have option from non suspension vs with one, most people would got for comfort. (I would chose euc on being "robust" as it's my daily workhorse)

What i'm trying to say, is that people would buy best euc they would see fit for themselves. My case that would be something light, stable, speed around 30-50kmh, and for range i don't care, as i can recharge it at home/job.

Most people that buy it for simple riding don't make acc on forum.. They simply use it as regular "bike" riding daily, not talking and checking "future" releases. They bought it and are enjoying it as simple transportation device, what it is at the end of day.

I'm here writing mostly because i'm bored. xD

Edited February 3, 2022 by Funky

[RayRay]

18 minutes ago, Funky said:

In reality it doesn't matter what we are saying here. xD Because S16 design, prototypes, should already be made somewhere..

I'm not trying to rain on your parade... (Development of what's going to become the S16 is probably well underway by now.)

I agree with most ideas on what they should do next, but I think many are too bold a follow-up to the S20 (for Kingsong).

The S20 is ambitious and ground-breaking, yet entirely predictable in terms of following the market (which is currently focused on heavy wheels).

I don't like it any more than you do, but I'm speculating on what Kingsong will do; (not what they should do). Prepare yourself for disappointment. 

There is only one way to right this ship and that is: "stop buying such heavy wheels!" (They're just going to keep making them heavier.)

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

new riders benefit from learning on a non-suspension wheel because it builds better fundamentals.

Just like it would on any other vehicle. But is that really a good enough reason to hinder progress? Suspension EUCs are here to stay, and they will unavoidably rule even the smaller segment in a few years. Try to explain to beginners then that an age old non-suspension wheel would be better for them than the one that got them interested in riding in the first place.

 It’s the same with playing an instrument. Learning to play with a crappy guitar does enhance the finger strength faster. Good luck making a teen stay in the hobby with a crappy guitar though.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

I think the entry level wheels in the KS line up are fine and do not need an upgrade.

The ones riding them seem to disagree with you a bit. New wheels with new features for the light & compact wheel classes have been asked for many times.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Let's face it the flashy stuff gets attention.  So a bunch of videos of a quick and agile street fighter will attract new people to the community.

Attention and attraction are completely different things! A street fighter like you describe sure would get my attention also, so I could try and recognize the rider and call the police. And it would make me ashamed of riding a similar kind of vehicle.

 If someone is interested in riding, “OMG I’ll never have the guts to do that” does not attract. It pushes away. I constantly hear people say how they would never be able to ride. And they will forget the whole thing immediately when I’m out of sight. But if they see someone ride something that looks fun and they think they could do as well, they are lured in right then and there.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

The S16 should be a wheel for enthusiasts.

Circling back to these questions: What kind of a 16” enthusiast wheel is needed in the markets right now? And how to differentiate an enthusiast 16S from the 20S? Since enthusiasts always want the fastest and most powerful, why would anyone buy the slower of the two?

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

if KS can deliver the S20 and a similarly wowing S16 back to back, they could very well solidify themselves as the best and most innovative EUC manufacturer.

I agree, except with what the “wowing” should entail. Shock and awe with a light & compact & well designed $1800 suspension wheel and they can sell it for 4x the shelf life of yet another enthusiast wheel that only sells for 2 years.

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

Then, they can deliver the suspension commuter that so many are advocating for in this thread.

S20 in 2022, S16 in 2023-2024, and then when everybody is crying for an update to the S20, they would spend another year or two on another 16” wheel? That sounds like a manufacturer suicide to me.

 

[Funky]

13 minutes ago, RayRay said:

I'm not trying to rain on your parade... (Development of what's going to become the S16 is probably well underway by now.)

Emm? That's exactly what i said. xD As S16 is already "built" somewhere.

[RayRay]

1 minute ago, Funky said:

That's exactly what i said.

I quoted you. (+ Added comments...) 

Let it be known to all that: Funky first stated that the wheel Kingsong announced (and that we have all been speculating on) exists in some fashion or multiverse. 

[Funky]

1 minute ago, RayRay said:

I quoted you. (+ Added comments...) 

Let it be known to all that: Funky first stated that the wheel Kingsong announced (and that we have all been speculating on) exists in some fashion or multiverse. 

And i quoted you. (+ Added comments...)  

Yup that's right, it's my "Dream Wheel" That i'm speculating on.<3 In reality it could be 35kg, 16" super wheel, that goes 100kmh speed. And has the biggest battery. That's why it's 16" wheel, they need place for battery.. <3

[RayRay]

All sarcasm aside, you may not be far off... @Funky

Let's hope Kingsong can find new market potential in a return to small and portable wheels. 

[Funky]

1 minute ago, RayRay said:

All sarcasm aside, you may not be far off... @Funky

Let's hope Kingsong can find new market potential in a return to small and portable wheels. 

Hope dies last. It would be kinda foolish for KS not take up the "light class" for S16. Just saying, as they just released the S20.. Next plan would be something lighter. Then again something middle.

ks14>ks16>ks18>s20   Repeat starting S16. xD

[Rotan]

I also wish it to be a 16s with suspensions rather then a 16x. Around 1k watt battery 84v would be enough... 

 

[Funky]

10 hours ago, Rotan said:

I also wish it to be a 16s with suspensions rather then a 16x. Around 1k watt battery 84v would be enough... 

 

Amen brother. xD For us everyday "Joe" these "small" euc are much more worth, than those "big" ones.

[Ek.]

On 2/4/2022 at 4:23 AM, Eucner said:

It would be also good for all law abiding citizen. They are not all beginners. Many countries limit legal speed to 25 km/h. Light weight HT suspension wheel with 60 km/h free spin and hollow motor would be a great addition for market. It would be handy when commuting and shopping. For me the suspension would be mostly a safety feature. Especially when it is dark.

Not a beginner here but I'm putting my name down for a nimble, lightweight wheel with something like 50km usable range (for me - 70kg slow rider) and some headroom for a safe 30km/h top speed. Hill climbing an absolute must. Suspension for safety and, to a degree, comfort. Space for an off road tire. I'd rather it looks like the S18 than the S20. But not quite so wide, preferably. Max 25kg but the lighter the better. Got to be robust enough to drop off high curbs and not hurt the axle/rim/pedal hangers etc.

Would be great if the design allowed for side pads that look a bit more "on purpose" than most after market ones but a bit less spacecraft than the S20 ones. Like the S18 design but actually usable as pads for extra wheel control.

If the S16 gets close to this I'm selling the S18. Absolutely love the suspension and overall design but find it too heavy to feel totally in control at all times, e.g. going down steep hills.

[RayRay]

Differentiating S16 from S18 and S22 going to be difficult.

Middle ground might be like Begode T4, unless they just try to make a faster S22.

Somehow, I think at this point they've gone back to drawing board. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Just a S18 with a smaller tire. Maybe a bit more performance, if possible. Good build quality and waterproofing. Keep the price down. I believe this is how KS can find success.

They can either stay 84V like the S18 (1110Wh), or go 126V with a 2p (1110Wh) or 3p (1660Wh) battery with high discharge cells, if that allows the price to be low enough.

I believe the S18 may be quite popular with new riders because a) it has all the features - suspension, decent top speed, decent range, etc. and b) the price isn't crazy high (same for V11). They should be able to do the same for a S16.

If it exists, because you're right that differentiating it will be difficult. But I don't think they'll give up on an entire size altogether. Might as well close up shop then.

[jrhz06]

How about fixing the S22 issues first.

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, jrhz06 said:

How about fixing the S22 issues first.

Simply remove S22 from market - all fixed.  Dud wheel, even if they fix it.. Because the suspension is so badly built on it.

[RayRay]

The poor launch of the S22 might make them rethink their whole strategy. 

This could be a good thing in the long run, but I think it means we'll have an even longer wait for next wheel.

See you in another 6 months...

[jrhz06]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Simply remove S22 from market - all fixed.  Dud wheel, even if they fix it.. Because the suspension is so badly built on it.

Great riding wheel, just need to address the crap quality.

[Funky]

2 hours ago, jrhz06 said:

Great riding wheel, just need to address the crap quality.

Say that again after 1 year. When you have to replace those rubber/plastic sliders. If not rebuilding whole suspension.

Quick question: Is there any grease inside that place, where those sliders slide? If yes - enjoy your clunky suspension pretty soon. Open frame suspension where dirt/sand can mix with grease, is simply so dumb design.. When grease mixes with sand, it becomes sandpaper. Same time the suspension gets clunky as duck. When i saw that design - i said "Duck that piece of crap". And have never looked at S20/22 again, because it's simply dumb wheel. Sure it will ride nicely at start, but over time it will have so many problems..

I highly recommend removing all grease of those sliders. (Yes running them dry will work better.. Or at least use Dry lube.) If they still "ship/sell" them with any grease in there. (If they have removed grease now - then you can ignore my rant.)  

Edited September 23, 2022 by Funky

[jrhz06]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Say that again after 1 year. When you have to replace those rubber/plastic sliders. If not rebuilding whole suspension.

Quick question: Is there any grease inside that place, where those sliders slide? If yes - enjoy your clunky suspension pretty soon. Open frame suspension where dirt/sand can mix with grease, is simply so dumb design.. When grease mixes with sand, it becomes sandpaper. Same time the suspension gets clunky as duck. When i saw that design - i said "Duck that piece of crap". And have never looked at S20/22 again, because it's simply dumb wheel. Sure it will ride nicely at start, but over time it will have so many problems..

I highly recommend removing all grease of those sliders. (Yes running them dry will work better.. Or at least use Dry lube.) If they still "ship/sell" them with any grease in there. (If they have removed grease now - then you can ignore my rant.)  

Removed the grease a few hundred miles ago. A bit of dry lube every couple of rides and no issues so far. If I need to rebuild it in a years time I’m fine with that.

[Rollin-on-1]

11 hours ago, Funky said:

Say that again after 1 year. When you have to replace those rubber/plastic sliders. If not rebuilding whole suspension.

Quick question: Is there any grease inside that place, where those sliders slide? If yes - enjoy your clunky suspension pretty soon. Open frame suspension where dirt/sand can mix with grease, is simply so dumb design.. When grease mixes with sand, it becomes sandpaper. Same time the suspension gets clunky as duck. When i saw that design - i said "Duck that piece of crap". And have never looked at S20/22 again, because it's simply dumb wheel. Sure it will ride nicely at start, but over time it will have so many problems..

I highly recommend removing all grease of those sliders. (Yes running them dry will work better.. Or at least use Dry lube.) If they still "ship/sell" them with any grease in there. (If they have removed grease now - then you can ignore my rant.)  

There are roller bearing options that are less expensive that many of the coil springs that people rushed out to buy.  For $30 in materials the slider issue is resolved.  And rumor has it that KS will be releasing a V2 that fixes the sliders, so even the DIY upgrade should only be a gap measure.  

The stator slipping issue has been resolved in motors built after July.  The latest BMS fw is balancing the cells very well now.  

Pretty soon the issues will be resolved and the S22 will be a great wheel for a wide segment of the riding community.  It's just too bad that KS didn't have these sorted out before the initial release.  Their reputation has taken a huge hit as a result.

 

Let's hope they learned their lesson and get things right before they release the S16.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Rollin-on-1

[Justin38]

kingsong takes too long to develop this wheel, I decided to do it by myself: 

More information here: 

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/21399-une-kingsong-s16/

 

[Rollin-on-1]

2 hours ago, Justin38 said:

kingsong takes too long to develop this wheel, I decided to do it by myself: 

More information here: 

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/21399-une-kingsong-s16/

 

Very cool.  I need to run the text through a translator.  Looking forward to reading all about what you've done.  Your wheel on 100v would be the ideal wheel for me!  Eager to see what the manufacturers come out with soon.