King Song S16 Speculation (no confirmation yet, only rumor)

[Funky]

11 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It's 3:2 (2*30 cells vs. 3*30 cells, assuming increments of 30 cells = 126V).

Range highly depends on the speed. You can ride a Tesla (1000Wh) at 25kph and get 50km range, or ride it at 50kph and get under 20km range. If this new wheel has any top speed that people won't whine about, you can ride it down to zero in 15km if it has ~1000Wh.

• 888Wh with the Samsung 40T cells for half the battery weight but still good performance, as a lighter commuter (that one  really is a not a bad idea!). This would save roughly 4.2kg in battery weight, so the rest of the wheel must not be too unnecessarily heavy for this to work out.

Both use 126V because that's what KS already has.

Thanks for explaining.

Yeah, if it's lightweight wheel, i don't see point having more than 50km top speed. And 50km range. (Because it's "light" xD) People would buy it because of lightness not for speed or range.

You can recharge the wheel anywhere.. If you need more range. (Job, caffe, home...)

Edited February 1, 2022 by Funky

[yoos]

 

7 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

• 2220Wh (like the S20) for the performance friends.
• 888Wh with the Samsung 40T cells

If one of the models has twice the number of cells then the lower-battery one would have unused space in the shell. I really would prefer an EUC with a shell that is as small as the battery allows. It's not only cell weight you are saving with a smaller battery, it's also shell size, bulkiness. So the two models would ideally have different shells (two different wheels, basically)

[yoos]

23 minutes ago, nosamplesplease said:

If they smaller wheel is intended to be lower cost(much doubt here), why would KS choose any voltage above 84v? 

because higher voltage means higher top speed. You just have to switch to high-discharge batteries to maintain current at low parallel count. Example: take the S18, it has 60 cells arranged as 20s3p (84V). Now rearrange it as 30s2p (126V) and you have got yourself a 50% increase in freespin speed for free! However, you sacrificed torque (low-speed acceleration) since you have 33% less max current now. This is then solved by choosing high-discharge cells. Seems a now-brainer, especially if you already have a working 126V in your portfolio.

And regarding cost -- the increase is marginal since you are primarily paying for the total cell count (or total Wh, if you will)

23 minutes ago, nosamplesplease said:

I believe they are aiming for a target BELOW s18 in all respects except suspension.

It makes perfect sense to target above in terms of performance since the S18 has significant drawbacks in its current implementation. I would say a 55-60kmh max speed would be conservative enough to be achievable at small weight yet attractive enough to be an upgrade over 16X,18XL,S18.

23 minutes ago, nosamplesplease said:

Otherwise they won't have any market segmentation in their own products.

Older wheels will just be slowly phased out, seems normal (remember 16A,B,C, 18S etc?). They already have most of the market covered so anything they add would inevitably cannibalize something they already have. Luckily we have competition with Inmotion and Begode so you have to innovate or you will eventually be outclassed.

Edited February 1, 2022 by yoos

[nosamplesplease]

You are assuming KS wants higher speed. IMO they have a halo product, the s20, which fills the needs of speed oriented customers. While batteries are a significant portion of production cost, engineering and tooling is another significant cost. Depends on where they want to save costs. Make all new wheels share some parts or have some new wheels use up a stockpile of old parts. Parts seem to be in very short supply right now. All depends on the the decisions made by KS. 

From what I can tell all of their potential customers want something "slightly" different that may have far reaching changes in both engineering and manufacturing. As to your point about older designs being phased out, I believe all of those are small incremental updates, not requiring significant changes to either engineering or manufacturing. 

Again Inmotion has not updated any of their smaller wheels for better performance only for the inclusion of easier to obtain batteries. Gotway is Gotway, I can't grok WTF they are thinking with product design choices. Appears to be the spaghetti method. There is a huge gap in the market for a "new" wheel that fits the low end of the market. Again IMO.

A smaller suspension wheel is different enough they may not prioritize competing on performance. It would be unique due to that one detail alone. "No" competition there. 

[Scottie]

1 hour ago, yoos said:

Theoretically, options are great and I easily imagine a "build your wheel" environment (like we have for cars) where you choose your battery cells, your tires and perhaps light setup, USB versus extra charging ports or other module.

We have a little of that with the 16X or 16XS choice. It would not be too much of an "ask" to have the rumored S16 (that we are dreaming out loud about) come in configurations like @meepmeepmayer suggested. I was thinking 3 configurations, but 2 will probably be okay. The S16 is such a nice idea, it would a shame to have it limited to being a heavy or light wheel.

1 hour ago, yoos said:

However, this tweaking is currently delegated to users/dealers and it's quite alright at this point. 

I am thinking of the Nikola AR+ now. That is a good way to go also.

2 hours ago, yoos said:

I like the current KS and inmotion approach better - make one wheel at a time and try to make it just right.

Here we are dreaming of a new wheel, which is fine and necessary. That does not take anything from the current wheels. They are still great and deserve to stay in production. I find myself on both sides of the fence about this. New wheels with new capability make me salivate about new possibilities, much like when I was learning to ride and thinking about what I might do with this new transportation.

The following might take this discussion sideways a little, but I also want a "tried and true" wheel, which made just right, if I am going somewhere and really need dependability. Suspension would still be nice though. In that case, I wish and wonder if the wheel accessory in the video might ever be mass produced by someone in the aftermarket. That pedal suspension accessory could be sized or adapted to fit any current dependable wheel, be it 16S, 18XL, V10F, etc.

 

 

[yoos]

@nosamplesplease Your points are very valid and it is indeed difficult to bring something new and yet inexpensive to the <25kg market. However, utilizing the 126V expertise (assuming the S20 confirms its advantages) seems an obvious strategy. Begode has had the high-speed edge for several years thanks mainly to two things: higher voltage and lower safety margins. While the latter is problematic (higher than rated discharge might have contributed to fires, thin top speed margins are more prone to overpowers) the former is a legit way of improving performance. I see no problem bringing higher voltage to smaller wheels. 

All in all, using high voltage and high-drain batteries there is a way to have torque, speed and light weight (and size) at the cost of range. That is a combination that was previously unavailable. And there is certainly demand for that. While more range is nice there are enough people who are more than happy to sacrifice range to save weight, size and cost. Just to give use case examples:

• the casual heavy rider who needs the torque and safety but goes slow and never far, e.g. accompanying small grandchildren on bicycles
• the short distance commuter who needs either high speed for short street rides or torque for steep inclines or his weight
• the trick rider who mostly rides ramps on a skate park and needs the burst for jumps and climbs but really benefits from reduced weight  
• the offroader who does exhausting difficult technical climbs but never long ones
• the light teenager who has limited money but needs the speed to keep up with group rides even if only for half the journey
• the beginner who wants performance at a (more) reasonable price
• the person who cannot lift heavy weights and has to find a replacement for his 30+ kg EUC and does want to keep the speed
• the commuter who has particular requirements for the compactness (e.g. to stow the EUC in a locker or elsewhere confined)
• the person who appreciates a lighter wheel and can afford two of them to swap them when battery is low (you are participating in the races or you are doing short-range deliveries and return to base all the time etc)

All you need is batteries fit for the purpose [I have repeated this in several threads but it is worth mentioning again - you can produce high torque and speed without shermanesque battery amounts]

[Tawpie]

And then there is at least one of me: I want torque, range and agility, but don't need speed.

I get torque and agility benefits with a 16" wheel, and it is a fact for me that a 16" wheel is squirrley enough at 50 kph so when I need to get somewhere I cruise at 40 (with uncomfortably low margin on my present wheels). In my book, higher speeds are better served by the larger diameter wheels because they're so much more stable... so I'm willing to sacrifice on speed.

[nosamplesplease]

41 minutes ago, yoos said:

@nosamplesplease Your points are very valid and it is indeed difficult to bring something new and yet inexpensive to the <25kg market. However, utilizing the 126V expertise (assuming the S20 confirms its advantages) seems an obvious strategy. Begode has had the high-speed edge for several years thanks mainly to two things: higher voltage and lower safety margins. While the latter is problematic (higher than rated discharge might have contributed to fires, thin top speed margins are more prone to overpowers) the former is a legit way of improving performance. I see no problem bringing higher voltage to smaller wheels. 

All in all, using high voltage and high-drain batteries there is a way to have torque, speed and light weight (and size) at the cost of range. That is a combination that was previously unavailable. And there is certainly demand for that. While more range is nice there are enough people who are more than happy to sacrifice range to save weight, size and cost. Just to give use case examples:

• the casual heavy rider who needs the torque and safety but goes slow and never far, e.g. accompanying small grandchildren on bicycles
• the short distance commuter who needs either high speed for short street rides or torque for steep inclines or his weight
• the trick rider who mostly rides ramps on a skate park and needs the burst for jumps and climbs but really benefits from reduced weight  
• the offroader who does exhausting difficult technical climbs but never long ones
• the light teenager who has limited money but needs the speed to keep up with group rides even if only for half the journey
• the beginner who wants performance at a (more) reasonable price
• the person who cannot lift heavy weights and has to find a replacement for his 30+ kg EUC and does want to keep the speed
• the commuter who has particular requirements for the compactness (e.g. to stow the EUC in a locker or elsewhere confined)
• the person who appreciates a lighter wheel and can afford two of them to swap them when battery is low (you are participating in the races or you are doing short-range deliveries and return to base all the time etc)

All you need is batteries fit for the purpose [I have repeated this in several threads but it is worth mentioning again - you can produce high torque and speed without shermanesque battery amounts]

I love your optimism. I'd rather expect less and be surprised by more.

Edited February 1, 2022 by nosamplesplease

[Funky]

45 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

And then there is at least one of me: I want torque, range and agility, but don't need speed.

I get torque and agility benefits with a 16" wheel, and it is a fact for me that a 16" wheel is squirrley enough at 50 kph so when I need to get somewhere I cruise at 40 (with uncomfortably low margin on my present wheels). In my book, higher speeds are better served by the larger diameter wheels because they're so much more stable... so I'm willing to sacrifice on speed.

And then there's me: I want light. No need speed, range. xD Sure torque, agility is awesome.

1 hour ago, yoos said:

@nosamplesplease Your points are very valid and it is indeed difficult to bring something new and yet inexpensive to the <25kg market. However, utilizing the 126V expertise (assuming the S20 confirms its advantages) seems an obvious strategy. Begode has had the high-speed edge for several years thanks mainly to two things: higher voltage and lower safety margins. While the latter is problematic (higher than rated discharge might have contributed to fires, thin top speed margins are more prone to overpowers) the former is a legit way of improving performance. I see no problem bringing higher voltage to smaller wheels. 

All in all, using high voltage and high-drain batteries there is a way to have torque, speed and light weight (and size) at the cost of range. That is a combination that was previously unavailable. And there is certainly demand for that. While more range is nice there are enough people who are more than happy to sacrifice range to save weight, size and cost. Just to give use case examples:

• the casual heavy rider who needs the torque and safety but goes slow and never far, e.g. accompanying small grandchildren on bicycles
• the short distance commuter who needs either high speed for short street rides or torque for steep inclines or his weight
• the trick rider who mostly rides ramps on a skate park and needs the burst for jumps and climbs but really benefits from reduced weight  
• the offroader who does exhausting difficult technical climbs but never long ones
• the light teenager who has limited money but needs the speed to keep up with group rides even if only for half the journey
• the beginner who wants performance at a (more) reasonable price
• the person who cannot lift heavy weights and has to find a replacement for his 30+ kg EUC and does want to keep the speed
• the commuter who has particular requirements for the compactness (e.g. to stow the EUC in a locker or elsewhere confined)
• the person who appreciates a lighter wheel and can afford two of them to swap them when battery is low (you are participating in the races or you are doing short-range deliveries and return to base all the time etc)

All you need is batteries fit for the purpose [I have repeated this in several threads but it is worth mentioning again - you can produce high torque and speed without shermanesque battery amounts]

Dam i check for most of those points! Well said. <3

I want and extreme wheel. But i don't need the "extra" cost of large battery size.. I'm already charging my 18xl once or twice a week.. (Heck, need be i could charge it at job/home)

Battery is the most expensive part in euc no? Meaning if they get damaged, i have to pay less on smaller euc..

Edited February 1, 2022 by Funky

[RayRay]

Somehow, I doubt Kingsong is going to 're-invent the wheel'...

I suspect the S16 will be similar to the S20, just a little faster. Maybe they'll bring back the S18's suspension (redesigned for more battery clearance). A theme among Kingsong shells is their distinct hexagonal shape; (no more ovals). If they continue this, the result would be a 16X/S18 like appearance; only taller (and bulkier).

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by RayRay

[Rollin-on-1]

12 hours ago, RayRay said:

Somehow, I doubt Kingsong is going to 're-invent the wheel'...

I suspect the S16 will be similar to the S20, just a little faster. Maybe they'll bring back the S18's suspension (redesigned for more battery clearance). A theme among Kingsong shells is their distinct hexagonal shape; (no more ovals). If they continue this, the result would be a 16X/S18 like appearance; only taller (and bulkier).

 

 

 

I doubt the S16 will be faster than the S20.  It would need an even higher RPM than the S20 due to the smaller tire diameter.  The smaller tire is also less stable at higher speeds.  At best, I think they may retain the 70kph top speed of the S20, but even that is doubtful considering KS's safety focus.

[Funky]

18 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

I doubt the S16 will be faster than the S20.  It would need an even higher RPM than the S20 due to the smaller tire diameter.  The smaller tire is also less stable at higher speeds.  At best, I think they may retain the 70kph top speed of the S20, but even that is doubtful considering KS's safety focus.

xD it will be fun to see who was right at the end, when S16 gets released. 

I think it will be 20kg or under wheel, 40-50kph top speed, low range.

They would be dum not to fill the lightweight market. Because there simply is none with suspension. Also for regular riders that don't need "extreme" wheel. (Range, speed.)

Would sell a lot more units.. As people who never had euc before would not go buy 3000$ euc.. As his first. People normally look at lower level wheels. And S16 with suspension could feel that market real nice.

[mrelwood]

19 hours ago, yoos said:

because higher voltage means higher top speed.

Incorrect. Higher voltage is just one variable that can be used to create a faster wheel. The motor’s Kv value is the one that determines the speed per voltage. As we see with GW, HS and HT versions use the same voltage, just with a different motor Kv value, resulting in either higher speed and lower low end torque, or lower speed and higher low end torque.

 

19 hours ago, yoos said:

This is then solved by choosing high-discharge cells. Seems a now-brainer

Why not simply use a motor with a lower Kv value and be done with it? No point in using a new and unconfirmed high voltage system when you can get the same end result easier and cheaper.

 

19 hours ago, yoos said:

Older wheels will just be slowly phased out, seems normal (remember 16A,B,C, 18S etc?).

KS would be really foolish to make the S16 compete with their own S20 and phase out models from a different size class that still sell very well. Sub 20kg wheels are and will forever be needed in the markets, just like @Funky described.

 

19 hours ago, yoos said:

you have to innovate or you will eventually be outclassed.

Well, it seems you can also just monkey around with just about any “design” if you just slab in a huge battery and make it fast. That’s enough for surprisingly many riders.

 

18 hours ago, nosamplesplease said:

Again Inmotion has not updated any of their smaller wheels for better performance

Not completely true. A few years ago the V8 got a remarkable upgrade to V8F, and recently another with a bigger battery to V8S.

 

18 hours ago, nosamplesplease said:

There is a huge gap in the market for a "new" wheel that fits the low end of the market. Again IMO.

I agree! Now that there’s finally a worthy feature to revolutionize the sub 20kg category, I’m eagerly waiting to see who will conquer it first with a suspension wheel.

[Paradox]

Instant suspension.  😀

 

[Funky]

3 minutes ago, Paradox said:

Instant suspension.  😀

 

Is that Gotway?

[Eucner]

3 minutes ago, Paradox said:

Instant suspension.  😀

Do these come with adjustable dampening? I won't buy without .

[Funky]

6 minutes ago, Eucner said:

Do these come with adjustable dampening? I won't buy without .

Remove middle spring = adjustable.. Doh,  can't you see that?

[Eucner]

14 minutes ago, Funky said:

Remove middle spring = adjustable.. Doh,  can't you see that?

Of course I can see the adjustable suspension, but where is the dampening? 

[Funky]

8 minutes ago, Eucner said:

Of course I can see the adjustable suspension, but where is the dampening? 

Use your "bio" dampening, that mother nature gave you.  

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

KS would be really foolish to make the S16 compete with their own S20

True in conventional wisdom. And somebody already did something similar; completely owned an entire category and when it was far and away its largest source of revenue, they went and released a "large touchscreen iPod"... we all know how that turned out!

Edited February 2, 2022 by Tawpie

[yoos]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Incorrect. Higher voltage is just one variable that can be used to create a faster wheel. The motor’s Kv value is the one that determines the speed per voltage. As we see with GW, HS and HT versions use the same voltage, just with a different motor Kv value, resulting in either higher speed and lower low end torque, or lower speed and higher low end torque.

Yes, I was oversimplifying it a bit  if you take a particular motor (in the sense of a fixed Kv) then higher voltage means higher max rpm. So you can use a tried and tested motor, run it with a higher voltage controller-battery setup and have an improvement in speed. Of course swapping for a lower winding number (and thus adjusting Kv) achieves a similar result. However, in this case you will need higher currents to produce the same torque which requires thicker wiring (among other things). 

In the end, of course, you have max current and you have voltage. You can increase either to improve performance and use Kv to distribute this improvement between speed and torque as you see fit. It seems (empirically) that increasing both current and voltage is the way forward. I don't know precisely why it makes sense to increase voltage instead of adjusting Kv and packing a higher current battery. I suspect it has to do with the ohmic energy losses in the motor/wiring. Or perhaps low-Kv motors are problematic somehow? I simply do not know.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

KS would be really foolish to make the S16 compete with their own S20 and phase out models from a different size class that still sell very well. Sub 20kg wheels are and will forever be needed in the markets, just like @Funky described.

I never suggested the S16 would encroach on S20 territory. That would be foolish indeed! And the older models should obviously also kept in production while they still sell well. But they eventually might become outdated: once the market grows large enough someone (inmotion or kingsong I presume) will invest a serious amount into building a perfected small wheel. The 16S/V8 are already very very good but you can still design a slightly better wheel from scratch if you are willing to spend the money. 

Anyway we agree on the main point: bringing suspension to the compact class (16" or less, 20kg or less) would be great both for consumers and manufacturers. However, I suspect that the S16 might be a bit heavier than 20kg and could completely replace the S18 which would become an odd choice between the well-defined and more mature S16 and S20 on one hand and the well-rounded V11.

[RayRay]

I don't know how the S16 can differentiate itself from the S20 and still compete in this market. (Maybe foolish, but similarities are inevitable.)

I want what many others have been hoping for, a light suspension wheel; (but with more battery than S18). However, after all the development gone into the S20, the conservative thing to do would be to tweak the S20's look and ride characteristics for the 16 inch version. This strategy seemed to work for Kingsong with the 18L and 16X; (which turned out to have nearly identical specs once the 18XL mod was released).

There are now several wheels that can reach 45mph; a number the S20 falls just short of. What was the point of increasing the voltage so much if not to compete for top speed? The market (us) is rewarding these companies for putting out the fastest wheel possible. Otherwise, why have all the latest wheel announcements been so heavy? (Sure, your gain range as well; but the ever increasing voltages are all about speed.) The S16 needs to be as fast as possible.

When was the last time a new wheel model came out that was slower than that companies previous new model release?

Edited February 2, 2022 by RayRay

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, RayRay said:

What was the point of increasing the voltage so much

Torque. Using a torque motor at higher voltage allows it to have a higher theoretical top end speed (which they've evidently chosen to limit in firmware). With the combo I can see how you would get low end torque and somewhat higher speed.

[yoos]

7 minutes ago, RayRay said:

(but with more battery than S18)

Then you are inevitably undermining the S20. I think it is more wise to have consecutively released wheels to be quite apart in target audiences. Creating a S20lite with 16" and slightly lower battery would kill the S18, compete with V11 and steal sales from the S20. I am afraid you cannot make a truly light suspension wheel with a large battery. It makes more sense to miniaturize in all aspects: wheel size, suspension travel and battery size to produce a definitely light and small wheel which would dominate the established light-wheel market thanks to suspension. The 1500Wh+ market is already crowded with suspension wheels (note that the V13 will also come out before the S16).

 

12 minutes ago, RayRay said:

What was the point of increasing the voltage so much if not to compete for top speed?

Ultimately to have both high speed and high torque as well as suspension and great offroad capabilities. Speed demons can go for begode/veteran. I don't think Kingsong is willing to challenge that status quo because it doesn't want to sacrifice the "safety and reliability" reputation. 

[RayRay]

3 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Torque. Using a torque motor at higher voltage allows it to have a higher theoretical top end speed (which they've evidently chosen to limit in firmware). With the combo I can see how you would get low end torque and somewhat higher speed.

If the S16 isn't any faster (than S20), then they need to market it as "The Torque Master" and make it as off-road capable as possible. I think this would be a strong position for Kingsong (and it wouldn't need to be so damn heavy). Since they seem intent to limit top speed anyway, I believe this to be the superior S16 strategy.

Hopefully, Kingsong doesn't consider this too risky. I think that off-roaders are driving the suspension craze; (not speed demons).