King Song S16 Speculation (no confirmation yet, only rumor)

[Funky]

13 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I really like my 16X off-road... agile, light enough, has range enough, dead simple, trustworthy, water resistant enough, don't need to go fast. But I'm signed up for the S20 because of the knees—they don't really 'mind' absorbing all the bumps, but there are many surfaces where it's bumpy enough to really put a damper on the fun. I don't want to think I need to add a mouthguard to my gear load out.

I'd be tickled if they could figure out how to put a suspension on the 16X quite honestly. I wouldn't even feel bad about selling the 16X and the S18 (and the S20). Might need to the way prices are going!

Would be funny if everything 16X has is the "new" S16. Simply added springs. xD

I don't see S16 being more than 2500$.. Closer to ~2000$ should be ball park. As they have to compare prices to other company prices.

[Funky]

3 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

What about 116v to split the difference?  Beat the 100v Nik but keep it lighter than a 126v system.  Keep the 70kph top speed of the S20 by reducing the torque a little.

Why do you need 70kph.. It's 16" wheel, 50kph should be plenty. If people need speed they buy bigger wheel. <3

[Rollin-on-1]

Just now, Funky said:

Why do you need 70kph.. It's 16" wheel, 50kph should be plenty. If people need speed they buy bigger wheel. <3

If 50kph were plenty, I wouldn't be looking for anything more than my 16x.  Needs 70 kph to compete with the V12 and Nik+.  

 

The S16 needs to be what the V12 wanted to be...but with suspension.

[Funky]

10 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

If 50kph were plenty, I wouldn't be looking for anything more than my 16x.  Needs 70 kph to compete with the V12 and Nik+.  

 

The S16 needs to be what the V12 wanted to be...but with suspension.

Meh.. I would sacrifice "speed" "range" for lightness. 16x is great, add suspension = amazing. (Could be lighter)

What's the point of S16, if it will be another "powerful" "heavy" wheel.. 

V12 is almost heavy as.. S20. No point for S16 then..

I see S16 as lightweight wheel. Nothing else. As we got S18, soon S20.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Funky

[Rollin-on-1]

26 minutes ago, Funky said:

Meh.. I would sacrifice "speed" "range" for lightness. 16x is great, add suspension = amazing. (Could be lighter)

What's the point of S16, if it will be another "powerful" "heavy" wheel.. 

V12 is almost heavy as.. S20. No point for S16 then..

I see S16 as lightweight wheel. Nothing else. As we got S18, soon S20.

The S16 would be great if it were the 16x with suspension.  I do believe there is a need for that wheel.  It just wouldn't check the one box I'm looking for...more speed. 

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

What about 116v to split the difference?  Beat the 100v Nik but keep it lighter than a 126v system.  Keep the 70kph top speed of the S20 by reducing the torque a little.

4p then would be 2072Wh. In my opinion that is too little difference (only 16 cells less) in weight, price, etc. to 126V, so not worth the effort.

[Funky]

No, i mean we all love speed, but how fast should 16" wheel be.. When do we stop?

We got s18. now s20.. S16 is 16" so it should be lighter. If we get S16 almost same weight as S20, there is no point for S16 then. Why would you buy it over S20 then?

+It's time for some "new" lightweight wheels.. Enough of these power houses of wheels. xD

The wheel size alone is smaller so weight should also be smaller. But knowing recent "releases" we will get another heavy wheel.. That are to "heavy" for daily "work horse"

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Eucner said:

When S20 is called Eagle, S16 should be called Sparrow.

European or African sparrow? 

 

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Lightweight: ~44lbs(20kg)

Range: ~65miles(100km)

Just to pee on your dreams, let’s see what we get for 20kg without suspension:

- V10F, 16x2.5”, 960Wh

- GW Tesla, 16x2.125”, 1000Wh

I guess they can always be advertised as 100km wheels, but in practice they are 40-50km wheels.

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Meh.. I would sacrifice "speed" "range" for lightness. 16x is great, add suspension = amazing. (Could be lighter)

What's the point of S16, if it will be another "powerful" "heavy" wheel.. 

I am still baffled at the V12 weight. You take a V11, decrease the tire size, remove suspension, add 300Wh (~0.8kg) worth of battery… in total +2kg!

1 hour ago, Funky said:

V12 is almost heavy as.. S20. No point for S16 then..

That’s not fair though, 6kg lighter is NOT “almost as heavy“! If it were, your dream wheel would be “almost as heavy” as the V11…

1 hour ago, Funky said:

I see S16 as lightweight wheel. Nothing else. As we got S18, soon S20.

S18 battery size at only 1100Wh was a well known disaster, so they know very well not to do that anymore. I’d say the S16 must have a minimum of 1556Wh, and the same size 16X already weighs 24kg. Add suspension and more rigidity for higher speeds and you’re lucky to stay under the V11’s 27kg.

 Unless they see this as a chance to try to dominate the actual 16S size group. In that case we’re not looking at a top speed higher than 40km/h.

 Like always, from the triangle of speed, range and lightness, you can only pick two. (Except lightness, that one comes all alone… )

Edited February 1, 2022 by mrelwood

[Funky]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I guess they can always be advertised as 100km wheels, but in practice they are 40-50km wheels.

 same size 16X already weighs 24kg. Add suspension and more rigidity for higher speeds and you’re lucky to stay under the V11’s 27kg.

What.. Haven't you heard of these magic black holes called "outlets"?

Yeah i know "real" range is 60% of those 100km. Plenty.. Use your extreme euc for range.  

If it's same ol' same ol' heavy wheel. Why do we need S16 then.   (As many have said, why not use already available wheels.) xD

Heck 40km speed is alright, going true people.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Funky

[Paradox]

🤡🤡 If they fill the tire with helium it will make the wheel lighter!  Careful though, to much helium and the wheel would float away! 🤡🤡

[Tawpie]

A 16" wheel with 100V 4p battery and suspension, you gain from a lighter motor+rim+tire and replace the plastic shell with the S20 style exoskeleton... might be in the same weight class as the S18. I'd like that myself. I really do want 4p though, unless they can go with Elon's new tabless batteries (hahaha, they're really fat—never mind that they're still made of unobtanium).

[Rollin-on-1]

7 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

A 16" wheel with 100V 4p battery and suspension, you gain from a lighter motor+rim+tire and replace the plastic shell with the S20 style exoskeleton... might be in the same weight class as the S18. I'd like that myself. I really do want 4p though, unless they can go with Elon's new tabless batteries (hahaha, they're really fat—never mind that they're still made of unobtanium).

100v 6p would be a proper update to the 16x without going too overboard.

[yoos]

Unpopular opinion here but I think the S16 should be a 126V 32s2p Samsung 40T. This would mean a 90A max discharge (40T are high-discharge cells so 2p of 40T offer the same rated current as 6p on the widely used LG M50T). This would give the wheel insane power and torque with a (very) light battery but modest range. The battery would weigh around 4.5 kg vs 6 kg of the 16X. I would also suggest a light 16x2.5 tire with enough space to upgrade to 16x3 [having suspension, the 3 vs 2.5 difference is mainly about having more tire replacement options and not so much about comfort]. With the new and supposedly lighter Kingsong motors/rims and other upgrades compared to the S18 the S16 would weigh around 23 kg or even less.

This way we would have the perfect compact wheel for stunts, short technical off-road climbs/descents or short off-road racing and short-range commutes. The roughly 900Wh would mean a short range indeed but not a weak wheel (unlike the S18 with M50 series cells).

This is a market niche that is yet untaken and I assume there would be enough demand (me included). Note that high discharge cells can also charge quickly. The 40T are rated at 6A (i.e. 12A for a 2p), that is 70mins to charge fully (while balancing can be done at home). So if your use case has medium/long stops you can refill quite quickly.

There is a great (and often silent) share of the ridership who need and appreciate the lightness and compactness of the 15-20kg wheels and these wheels fulfill their needs perfectly. Introducing suspension to this part of the market is bound to attract a lot of customers. 

[Funky]

Let's view it like this:

As people mentioned we would need battery size of ~1500Wh. Or it will be same as s18. Meaning the weight is already 25kg, now add suspension, the wheel now is ~28-30kg..

Lets say for fun it's 30kg on mark. Is 30kg a lightweight wheel by any means? (I think anything over 25kg is heavy class wheel.) So lets compare S16 to S20 now.

On S16 we get smaller wheel, less range maybe, etc.. On S20 we get bigger wheel, more range, etc.. And S20 is "only" ~6kg heavier. Do you think people would buy S16 that already in "heavy class", or people simply would go for S20 what's more 6kg.. If we get everything "Bigger"? Am i crazy for thinking that people would pass on S16 then? What would you buy then S16 or S20?

Now lets look at "lightweight" class, is there any wheel in market under 20-25kg with suspension?

What if we get something like KS16S, but with suspension? Maybe little more speed? I personally think that kingsong would fill this place very well, as there is nothing lightweight with suspensions? (Haven't check if there is..) Also i think lightweight suspension wheels would sell more, than these "heavy" wheels, In long term they would make more money. But that's my honest thoughts, If kingsong makes S16 another "heavy" wheel, what's the point of it? People would simply buy S20 then.

The real "last mileage" wheel would be more value oriented.. Meaning people who don't need crazy speed/range would buy S16 a lot more. Otherwise people can buy S20. Why make something almost the same as S20?

Edited February 1, 2022 by Funky

[Rollin-on-1]

1 hour ago, yoos said:

Unpopular opinion here but I think the S16 should be a 126V 32s2p Samsung 40T. This would mean a 90A max discharge (40T are high-discharge cells so 2p of 40T offer the same rated current as 6p on the widely used LG M50T).

Intriguing.  Not sure it would be the wheel for me, but it is a relatively untapped market.  It would compete well against the MCM5.

[meepmeepmayer]

4 hours ago, yoos said:

Unpopular opinion here but I think the S16 should be a 126V 32s2p Samsung 40T.

That's actually a great idea for a 126V wheel without a huuuuge battery but one that can still put out the amps. Though I hope 3p at least. 2p at 4000mAh is 888Wh, which really is too small. 3p would be 1332Wh which is still too small, but not as crazy small.

Edited February 1, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[yoos]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Though I hope 3p at least

However, this would make both the 16X and the S18 obsolete (which might be well-deserved with both S16 and S20 available) and compete with V11,V12 (the S16 would offer V11 weight with V12-level or better torque and speed and good suspension since it would be their 3rd iteration already but less range). 100V 3p or 116V 3p then as a compromise? Perhaps there are other fitting battery cells with both capacity and current somewhere between 40T and L50T. I chose 126V because KS already has experience with S20 so they could save time by sticking to 126V and they could share components which is always preferable.

[Scottie]

4 hours ago, Funky said:

On S16 we get smaller wheel, less range maybe, etc.. On S20 we get bigger wheel, more range, etc.. And S20 is "only" ~6kg heavier. Do you think people would buy S16 that already in "heavy class", or people simply would go for S20 what's more 6kg.. If we get everything "Bigger"? Am i crazy for thinking that people would pass on S16 then? What would you buy then S16 or S20?

I think the 16 inch market is very large. There is a wide range of 16 inch wheels already, from light and portable to heavy long range wheels.  A "heavy class" S16 would appeal to heavier riders who are less speed oriented and like the easier access torque of the 16 inch wheels with long range. This also appeals to many lighter riders.

 

4 hours ago, Funky said:

What if we get something like KS16S, but with suspension? Maybe little more speed? I personally think that kingsong would fill this place very well, as there is nothing lightweight with suspensions? (Haven't check if there is..) Also i think lightweight suspension wheels would sell more, than these "heavy" wheels, In long term they would make more money.

The real "last mileage" wheel would be more value oriented.. Meaning people who don't need crazy speed/range would buy S16 a lot more. Otherwise people can buy S20. Why make something almost the same as S20?

There is also a strong market for the light portable commuter 16 inch wheels.

Ideally, if I were King Song, I would not limit my thinking in the huge 16 inch market. I would make 3 versions of the S16. The light version would appeal to V8 | 16S riders. A mid weight version would appeal to Tesla | 16X riders. And a "heavy class" would appeal to V12 | Nikola AR+ riders.

A "heavy class" 126V S16 might actually draw the torque oriented riders from the S20.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Scottie
grammer

[Funky]

20 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's actually a great idea for a 126V wheel without a huuuuge battery but one that can still put out the amps. Though I hope 3p at least. 2p at 4000mAh is 888Wh, which really is too small. 3p would be 1332Wh which is still too small, but not as crazy small.

How big is difference 888Wh vs 1332Wh? In riding range? If both can do at least 50km "real life riding" i would be happy.. As it would be marketed as "Lightweight" wheel not another "extreme" wheel.

[PourUC]

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's actually a great idea for a 126V wheel without a huuuuge battery but one that can still put out the amps. Though I hope 3p at least. 2p at 4000mAh is 888Wh, which really is too small. 3p would be 1332Wh which is still too small, but not as crazy small.

Maybe a small battery would open up the hotswappability potential.

A 32s2p battery could have small enough banks to facilitate easy yet lightweight battery swapping. A Kingsong back battery is a 10s cell for size comparison. So if the S18 had both a front battery and back battery in terms of space being used for a 32s pack. I can see in my head how you could have the entire battery lift out the top of the wheel with some quick release cover plates.

I am picturing a flat pack for the most part. 5 cells tall and 6 cells wide, then have the 2 extra cells on a second level along with the BMS. This should be a pretty small unit. Wrap it in a metal frame, that fits into the metal frame of the wheel with some heavy duty pogo pins or something and hey presto.

[Funky]

9 minutes ago, Scottie said:

I think the 16 inch market is very large. There is a wide range of 16 inch wheels already, from light and portable to heavy long range wheels.  A "heavy class" S16 would appeal to heavier riders who are less speed oriented and like the easier access torque of the 16 inch wheels with long range. This also appeals to many lighter riders.

 

 

Ideally, if I were King Song, I would not limit my thinking in the huge 16 inch market. I would make 3 versions of the S16. The light version would appeal to V8 | 16S riders. A mid weight version would appeal to Tesla | 16X riders. And a "heavy class" would appeal to V12 | Nikola AR+ riders.

Then again.. Something under 20kg and with suspension.. There are none? Free marketplace to fill in.

 

Yeah.. that 100% wont happen. Sadly. =(

[meepmeepmayer]

19 minutes ago, Funky said:

How big is difference 888Wh vs 1332Wh? In riding range? If both can do at least 50km "real life riding" i would be happy.

It's 3:2 (2*30 cells vs. 3*30 cells, assuming increments of 30 cells = 126V).

Range highly depends on the speed. You can ride a Tesla (1000Wh) at 25kph and get 50km range, or ride it at 50kph and get under 20km range. If this new wheel has any top speed that people won't whine about, you can ride it down to zero in 15km if it has ~1000Wh.

21 minutes ago, Scottie said:

There is also a strong market for the light portable commuter 16 inch wheels.

Ideally, if I were King Song, I would not limit my thinking in the huge 16 inch market. I would make 3 versions of the S16. The light version would appeal to V8 | 16S riders. A mid weight version would appeal to Tesla | 16X riders. And a "heavy class" would appeal to V12 | Nikola AR+ riders.

A "heavy class" 126V S16 might actually draw the torque oriented riders from the S20.

The only difference would be battery size and price, right? (And things that follow, like maybe top speed e.g. V10 vs. V10F)

So what batteries/voltages would these 3 models use? They have to make sense.

I think two models make the most sense:

• 2220Wh (like the S20) for the performance friends.
• 888Wh with the Samsung 40T cells for half the battery weight but still good performance, as a lighter commuter (that one really is a a good idea, @yoos is on to something here!). This would save roughly 4.2kg in battery weight, so the rest of the wheel must not be too unnecessarily heavy for this to work out.

Both use 126V because that's what KS already has.

Edited February 1, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[Funky]

11 minutes ago, PourUC said:

Maybe a small battery would open up the hotswappability potential.

A 32s2p battery could have small enough banks to facilitate easy yet lightweight battery swapping. A Kingsong back battery is a 10s cell for size comparison. So if the S18 had both a front battery and back battery in terms of space being used for a 32s pack. I can see in my head how you could have the entire battery lift out the top of the wheel with some quick release cover plates.

I am picturing a flat pack for the most part. 5 cells tall and 6 cells wide, then have the 2 extra cells on a second level along with the BMS. This should be a pretty small unit. Wrap it in a metal frame, that fits into the metal frame of the wheel with some heavy duty pogo pins or something and hey presto.

I already see so many things going wrong over time.. But that's if you swap the batteries a lot. I would simply buy bigger wheel then, if i thought i need more battery.

Pins that move.. And electricity.. Hmm sparks? Same as connecting battery wires?

[yoos]

17 minutes ago, Scottie said:

I would make 3 versions of the S16

A page from Begode's book . I like the current KS and inmotion approach better - make one wheel at a time and try to make it just right. Theoretically, options are great and I easily imagine a "build your wheel" environment (like we have for cars) where you choose your battery cells, your tires and perhaps light setup, USB versus extra charging ports or other module. However, this tweaking is currently delegated to users/dealers and it's quite alright at this point. 

 

[nosamplesplease]

If this thread is a fair representation of the market Kingsong is targeting then most of us will be disappointed.

Seems that no one here is really thinking from Kingsong's perspective.

IMO they will want to differentiate smaller wheels from larger wheels. If they smaller wheel is intended to be lower cost(much doubt here), why would KS choose any voltage above 84v? 

They have a very well proven system in the 16x. Just no suspension.

100v makes this hypothetical s16 IMO far superior to the s18(which does not appear to be getting a 100v update).

Hell 1500 would make it better than the s18 for most of us that with more than 125lbs. ( I don't think where these are made anyone weighs more than that, at least that's what their videos lead me to believe, )

I believe they are aiming for a target BELOW s18 in all respects except suspension. Likely an s16 will have a slightly superior suspension only be being designed from the lessons learned in the past.

Otherwise they won't have any market segmentation in their own products. I don't believe they are even considering any other manufacturer. No one else has suspension in that wheel size.