King Song S16 Speculation (no confirmation yet, only rumor)

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, Justin38 said:

kingsong takes too long to develop this wheel, I decided to do it by myself: 

More information here: 

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/21399-une-kingsong-s16/

 

This is a fantastic mod. Even looks better than the S18 I think - tire size and rest of shell match better.

Makes one wonder what the King Song people are doing all the time!

[Drunkard]

22 hours ago, Justin38 said:

kingsong takes too long to develop this wheel, I decided to do it by myself: 

More information here: 

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/21399-une-kingsong-s16/

 

Amazing! I love it.

KS you have your formula. Take 16xs motor and put it with 18s sustention. WHAT IS TAKING SO LONG?

But for real. From the description on the post and the demo videos, it does look to be a nice, small, fun, safe wheel that I would love to get for my lady. (was hoping T4 was the one, but i'm not risking her life by getting her a BG wheel.)

And please KS start making your wheel water proof enough to give them IP rating.. Sumer in Europe is short and sometimes there is rain half the time... 

[Pablocavern]

On 1/22/2023 at 10:03 AM, Drunkard said:

KS you have your formula. Take 16xs motor and put it with 18s sustention. WHAT IS TAKING SO LONG?

I guess EUC companies have to keep the balance between offering novelties but not making their previous wheels obsolete too fast, don't you think?

On the other hand, the latest news about the Veteran Patton has been a disappointment for people who are waiting for a not too heavy commuter wheel with suspension. Let's hope Kingsong doesn't make a 70kg wheel with 200v to overtake the rest of the companies in the euc tank development race. 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Pablocavern

[meepmeepmayer]

Please no overly offtopic discussions about suspension vs. no suspension or wheel weights here. Everyone keep this about this particular wheel please.

[Drunkard]

8 hours ago, Pablocavern said:

I guess EUC companies have to keep the balance between offering novelties but not making their previous wheels obsolete too fast, don't you think?

On the other hand, the latest news about the Veteran Patton has been a disappointment for people who are waiting for a not too heavy commuter wheel with suspension. Let's hope Kingsong doesn't make a 70kg wheel with 200v to overtake the rest of the companies in the euc tank development race. 

For sure, making your wheel obsolete is not something they should do, but at the same time not upgrading there older model with the new tech is something I don't get.. If they made the S18 in 2020 is there a time period that they need to wait before they can introduce any changes to it? They can make the wheel obsolete by not keeping the wheel attractive. I guess the S18 is selling well and does have the attractiveness still as a lightest suspension wheel so no upgrade needed.. boo

When I think of S16 I personally would love something very similar to S18 just tiny bit smaller... Smart BMS, Samsung 50S high discharge cells, still 84 volt, still super light.. Basically a S18 but smaller and a bit newer. You are right the wheel like this would make the S18 obsolete so it will not going to happen.. most likely it will be some higher performance orientated wheel. More volts = more cells = more weight..  witch hopefully going to be good wheel for trail ride. But can they than replace current S18 with S18Pro with Samsung 50S cells for us who want to buy a more modern light weight casual wheel? Giving a mid life update would justify them keeping the price still close to original release price..

 

[Dubardo]

I would gladly downgrade my s22 for a s16. I really miss the nimbleness of my 16x

[Rollin-on-1]

From Telegram chat:

"Kingsong new 16” suspension wheel, estimate announce/crowd test in May, and another new wheel announce 1 month after."

It should be interesting to see what they come up with.  Apparently there has been a whole restructuring of the company.  Hopefully for the better.

[Funky]

I already can see 35+kg wheel that counts as "smaller" 16". 

I miss the time, when small wheels where actually small.  And they didn't try to perform like their bigger brothers..

[Flygonial]

If you ask me, any news is good news. Some of my local riders were starting to lose faith that Kingsong would even stay in the wheel market, and losing competition in an already niche market would be close to the bottom of the list of things us hobbyists want. I believe I stumbled upon what looks like an e-portfolio and while I don't necessarily think the dates listed on it represent release dates for those products (as the N11 seems to have been around for a while), a restructuring makes sense and I could see them having tried to lean into diversifying their product lineup.

[meepmeepmayer]

(Sorry if this is too offtopic, but since nothing is known about the S!6 yet...)

6 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

From Telegram chat:

"Kingsong new 16” suspension wheel, estimate announce/crowd test in May, and another new wheel announce 1 month after."

Uh, nice! I wonder what that will be. Smaller than S16? Bigger than S22 (Monster/Abrams/Master Pro size)? A newer 20 incher after the S18 and S22?

6 hours ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

It should be interesting to see what they come up with.  Apparently there has been a whole restructuring of the company.  Hopefully for the better.

I hope that's true and will work out well. They definitely need that. One wheel per year at most, plus taking forever to fix things when problems arise, can't be sustainable.

15 minutes ago, Flygonial said:

If you ask me, any news is good news. Some of my local riders were starting to lose faith that Kingsong would even stay in the wheel market, and losing competition in an already niche market would be close to the bottom of the list of things us hobbyists want. I believe I stumbled upon what looks like an e-portfolio and while I don't necessarily think the dates listed on it represent release dates for those products (as the N11 seems to have been around for a while), a restructuring makes sense and I could see them having tried to lean into diversifying their product lineup.

Yes, good news! I used to wonder about Inmotion before they successfully did the V11 and then all their other performance wheels that showed they meant to stay in the game. Recently I was wondering about KS making it. But I guess they live from their existing lineup (16S, 16X, 18XL, S18), all of which probably still sell decent numbers (my unsubstantiated intuition is that the S18 is quite popular due to its lower price and still delivering everything besides high end range and speed).

[slippyfeet]

 

On 3/27/2023 at 4:42 AM, Funky said:

I already can see 35+kg wheel that counts as "smaller" 16". 

I miss the time, when small wheels where actually small.  And they didn't try to perform like their bigger brothers..

As a Tesla T3 + 18XL rider, I'm in the same boat as you. 
I've sent an email to KS once suggesting they shove their 2200W 84V motor in the 14D to give us a 30mph 14X, which I would gladly take over any offering over 30kg. Still optimistic of this S16 though, crossing fingers for May.  

[Funky]

44 minutes ago, slippyfeet said:

 

As a Tesla T3 + 18XL rider, I'm in the same boat as you. 
I've sent an email to KS once suggesting they shove their 2200W 84V motor in the 14D to give us a 30mph 14X, which I would gladly take over any offering over 30kg. Still optimistic of this S16 though, crossing fingers for May.  

Have you seen where we are headed? I bet S16 will be same thing as T4, or something like S18 with smaller wheel, but same time with metal build.. 30-35kg weight it will be. The companies don't make their own wheels anymore, they copy from each other. I would love to see 20-30kg wheel. But sadly i don't see it happening. 

Because the trend now is to shove as much as possible performance into the wheel. And by doing it - it becomes another heavy wheel.  

[slippyfeet]

10 hours ago, Funky said:

Have you seen where we are headed? I bet S16 will be same thing as T4, or something like S18 with smaller wheel, but same time with metal build.. 30-35kg weight it will be. The companies don't make their own wheels anymore, they copy from each other. I would love to see 20-30kg wheel. But sadly i don't see it happening. 

Because the trend now is to shove as much as possible performance into the wheel. And by doing it - it becomes another heavy wheel.  

Yup, T4 looked nice at first announcement, but once the weight was revealed I was bummed. I even tried a V12HT with promises of it being practical with power, but was immensely let down.  Got my 18XL after that, muchhhh more enjoyable and can 100% confirm this is the largest wheel that meshes with my life. The only 1st world problems that would warrant a future purchase for me are pothole/curb dampening, tire life/ ease of changeability, an unobtrusive kickstand, and a seamless killswitch operation to park or lift intuitively.

[Tawpie]

11 hours ago, Funky said:

30-35kg weight it will be.

I thought I saw 26 kg—that'd be nice!

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, slippyfeet said:

tire life/ ease of changeability, an unobtrusive kickstand, and a seamless killswitch operation to park or lift

 

Managed to achieve 18k km before first tyre replacement.

 

The kill switch is automatic.  Lift the handle gently, the wheel will beep, indicating the kill switch has been activated.

Can then proceed to lift off ground and the wheel will not spin.

When placed back on the ground and lifting pressure on handle is released, the wheel will beep, and kill switch is deactivated.

[slippyfeet]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

 

Managed to achieve 18k km before first tyre replacement.

 

The kill switch is automatic.  Lift the handle gently, the wheel will beep, indicating the kill switch has been activated.

Can then proceed to lift off ground and the wheel will not spin.

When placed back on the ground and lifting pressure on handle is released, the wheel will beep, and kill switch is deactivated.

yes, the 18XL kill switch/ handle is still the best design solely for lifting. tilting is a different story.  IM V12's implementation to kill+tilt was great, but the machine is inconveniently heavy, and the kickstand is a piece of wire...  

 

[techyiam]

25 minutes ago, slippyfeet said:

but the machine is inconveniently heavy, and the kickstand is a piece of wire...  

That was exactly how I felt right after I bought the V12. I knew there was going to be a learning curve, but I thought that the V12 would never be as easy to manage or to ride as the T3. As it turned out, I was completely wrong on both counts. My muscles got stronger, and my skills improved. It took a long while, but it happened. 

Regarding the kick stand, I like it. It works great for me.

[Funky]

4 hours ago, slippyfeet said:

Yup, T4 looked nice at first announcement, but once the weight was revealed I was bummed. I even tried a V12HT with promises of it being practical with power, but was immensely let down. 

44 minutes ago, techyiam said:

That was exactly how I felt right after I bought the V12. I knew there was going to be a learning curve, but I thought that the V12 would never be as easy to manage or to ride as the T3. As it turned out, I was completely wrong on both counts. My muscles got stronger, and my skills improved. It took a long while, but it happened. 

Yeah while riding the weight of the wheel isn't that important.. Be 20kg or 55kg. It makes almost no difference. (Sure at start you will feel it.. But give it 1-3 weeks and you will get used to it.)

If i didn't need the portability of smaller/lighter wheels. I would have bought Sherman-Max as mine first wheel. But i have put myself a rule - that i don't need or want a heavier than 30kg wheel. Simply because if you go over 30kg you get to fast wheels and to big range. More range - bigger battery - more cost and weight.

I would like to have 20" wheel, that can go ~35mph. With 1000Wh battery personally.  

Edited March 30, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

40 minutes ago, Funky said:

I would like to have 20" wheel, that can go ~35mph. With 1000Wh battery personally.

S18 is pretty close to that.

How about a 22" version of the hollow bore S18 with 1000Wh high discharge cells, and keep it at 100.8 V. For less maintenance, and lighter weight, and less complexity, remove suspension. 

 

[Funky]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

S18 is pretty close to that.

How about a 22" version of the hollow bore S18 with 1000Wh high discharge cells, and keep it at 100.8 V. For less maintenance, and lighter weight, and less complexity, remove suspension. 

 

S18 has suspension..

With 22" you don't even need suspension. So yeah.. Sounds very good. (Not even joking.)

But i know no-one will build so small battery pack with so big wheel.... I can only hope for 18" with that small battery pack. Normally only small (very small) wheels have the ~1000Wh packs. Why can't they simply add bigger wheel? Shell to wheel size. 

 

Best option would be big wheel and rider can choose the pack size.. And prices also would differ according to battery size. ~1000Wh, ~2000Wh and ~3600Wh.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Funky

[Tawpie]

On 1/21/2023 at 2:29 AM, Justin38 said:

kingsong takes too long to develop this wheel, I decided to do it by myself: 

More information here: 

https://www.espritroue.fr/topic/21399-une-kingsong-s16/

 

Making sure I read this correctly: you ended up putting a 16XS motor (with extended wiring) onto the S18? That's fantastic! I have the parts to make that... hmmmmmmm

Edited March 30, 2023 by Tawpie

[mrelwood]

22 hours ago, slippyfeet said:

I've sent an email to KS once suggesting they shove their 2200W 84V motor in the 14D to give us a 30mph 14X

The motor doesn’t create any power though, so changing to a motor with more power handling wouldn’t make it any safer to ride fast. 14D has a tiny 420Wh battery. Even if it had high discharge cells, I would never take it up to 30mph. I wouldn’t take any 14” EUC to 30mph for the tire size alone for that matter.

 

3 hours ago, Funky said:

With 22" you don't even need suspension.

Which is why cars with big tires don’t have suspension either! Wait… they do? Why?? Funky told me that they don’t need one?!

 Just look at how many are riding the V13 without suspension. I think I’ve read about one person. Every review I’ve seen says the same: “You can remove the suspension, but why would you?”

3 hours ago, Funky said:

But i know no-one will build so small battery pack with so big wheel...

I know that too. But I also know why.

3 hours ago, Funky said:

Why can't they simply add bigger wheel?

Simply increasing the tire diameter requires larger power capabilities from the battery and the controller. That’s just physics, and how the power of the motor transfers to torque. A larger tire is like a bigger gear. If you want to accelerate as fast with a bigger gear (which is required for balancing), you need more power. Battery is what creates the power, and the controller distributes the power. So you need to scale up both of those as well.

1000Wh and 30mph is rarely a safe combination. The S18 for example is a bit too easy to overlean at 30mph because of the small battery.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Simply increasing the tire diameter requires larger power capabilities from the battery and the controller. That’s just physics, and how the power of the motor transfers to torque. A larger tire is like a bigger gear. If you want to accelerate as fast with a bigger gear (which is required for balancing), you need more power. Battery is what creates the power, and the controller distributes the power. So you need to scale up both of those as well.

Simply don't accelerate so fast.. I have ridden 16s and 18xl and i never over power them. Even while being 2x weight of most normal riders. Sure if i try going 1-25mph really fast. Doing somewhat "superman" lean. Then i for sure hear the beeps. But in daily riding and what not i never heard any beeps aside from speed alarms.

Yeah i know older S18 had the problem where riders over leaned it often. Because of the low 1000Wh pack. (New ones still have the problem? Whit updated battery pack?)

One needs to take into mind also how they ride. DO monster cars go 100+mph? No they don't. You got slick low to ground sport cars made for speed and the monster trucks simply roll over everything. (I for sure would have more fun riding the slower big monster wheel. Than going 40-60mph on wheel.) Then again i never really go faster than 26mph. So in my case the big wheel would make sense.  Rolling over all the bumps, curbs, etc.. without any issue.

You still could ride 35mph with big tire and smallish battery pack. But you simply will do it slower and over time gaining the speed.

Same thing with road bikes vs fat tire bikes. I for sure know the fat tire bike won't be doing any speed records.  But riding the fat tire bike true woods and off-road are dam fun.

Edited March 30, 2023 by Funky

[Tokumeino]

Small wheels without large battery packs should be built with Molicel batteries or such : better for safety.