V12 Cutout tracking

[Steve Evans]

i just heard that inmotion have confirmed they will be using HT mosfets on HS version

 

[meepmeepmayer]

In other words, their new board will be used for all V12 from now on.

What are the HT mosfets? Are they TO-247? Rated for more than 100V? Does anybody know?

[supercurio]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

In other words, their new board will be used for all V12 from now on.

What are the HT mosfets? Are they TO-247? Rated for more than 100V? Does anybody know?

Sounds like it yes, so there would be 2 classes of V12:

• Batch 1&2: Original board, bad reputation, poor resale value
• V12 & V12 HT with HT board, more power reserve, more robust, the wheel that should continue on

Does it look like the MOSFETs are the same size?

 

[FidoUK]

I need some help, is there anyway of testing the MOS for under specs?The diode test? We have check 2 dead units so far (one already repaired and performing correctly) and we can not find any pattern, they fail on pairs (not sure if that's normal), first unit was in Yellow phase now is the Blue phase. Any method to diagnose MOS without having to over torque the wheel will be really useful.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

26 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Does it look like the MOSFETs are the same size?

 

Is this a picture of the new (HT) board?

Those look smaller than TO-247 to me. So they stayed with TO-220 I guess It appears a bigger board redesign would be needed to fit 12 TO-247 packages, as they are all in one row now.

For comparison: an old MSX board with TO-247. These look bigger, right?

Can you even have big spec differences with the same size mosfets, so one type would be too weak but another would be fine?

[supercurio]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Is this a picture of the new (HT) board?

Those look smaller than TO-247 to me. So they stayed with TO-220 I guess It appears a bigger board redesign would be needed to fit 12 TO-247 packages, as they are all in one row now.

Yes that's a picture of the HT board, at least as shown in the V12 HT brochure. There are some slight visual differences but nothing dramatic. Maybe we can find a photo of an existing V12 board at the same angle for direct comparison.

V12 HT brochure source, highest res I could find.

 

[skedra]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Yes that's a picture of the HT board, at least as shown in the V12 HT brochure. There are some slight visual differences but nothing dramatic. Maybe we can find a photo of an existing V12 board at the same angle for direct comparison.

V12 HT brochure source, highest res I could find.

 

Not 100% sure but it may be this:

https://a.aliexpress.com/_msE8a6y

[supercurio]

4 minutes ago, skedra said:

Not 100% sure but it may be this:

https://a.aliexpress.com/_msE8a6y

Right. The casing and spacing between them looks the same.
Maybe the HT board in the brochure is not the real one.

• 2.5 kW continuous to 2.8 kW
• +23% max: 6.5 kW to 8 kW 

It seem difficult to get there with the same size MOSFET, same count.
How would it be done is pretty mysterious at the moment, unless the physical design changes to accommodate larger packages or Inmotion sourcing found some gem.

[skedra]

3 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Right. The casing and spacing between them looks the same.
Maybe the HT board in the brochure is not the real one.

• 2.5 kW continuous to 2.8 kW
• +23% max: 6.5 kW to 8 kW 

It seem difficult to get there with the same size MOSFET, same count.
How would it be done is pretty mysterious at the moment, unless the physical design changes to accommodate larger packages or Inmotion sourcing found some gem.

Wouldn't be surprised if it was just a photoshop tbh. You gotta get material for adverts somehow 

[meepmeepmayer]

Let's hope for the best!

[Tawpie]

The promo picture is most likely TO-220, the TO-247 package is almost twice as wide as the TO-220 and the epoxy body of a TO-247 goes all the way to the end of the metal heat tab. It looks like the promo picture has the hold down screws are not going through the black part body (the screw appears to be attached to the part's metal heat tab).

My money is the promo picture is "representative" but not factual.

http://www.interfacebus.com/semiconductor-transistor-packages-TO-247.html

http://www.interfacebus.com/semiconductor-transistor-packages-TO-220.html

[mrelwood]

 

On 1/13/2022 at 7:51 PM, supercurio said:

Alternative stress test suggestion #1

Would maybe bouncing the wheel on the ground be a test that could reproduce the required fast direction change without much risk? Disable the lift switch, and bounce the wheel like a basketball holding tight on the handle. Push it down faster each time the wheel’s approaching the ground, and aim for getting it up to 20cm (8”) above the ground. It’s practically impossible to make it stay perfectly level, so the motor will spin before hitting the ground.

 

11 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

What are the HT mosfets? Are they TO-247? Rated for more than 100V? Does anybody know?

At least the original cooling block can’t be used with TO-247, since the screw holes are too close to each other. Unless they radically change the controller and cooling block layouts, the HT version will also be using TO-220.

[Rawnei]

Another case where the person performed the stress test and later it still failed:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotionv12/permalink/504048937694032/

Quote

Well, I had a cutout on this guy yesterday going over a small sloped curb at slow speeds. Luckily since I happened to be at such a slow speed, as I was literally just starting a ride, I didn't really injure myself except for my ego falling in front of my neighbors after telling them how much fun this is to ride. I did the stress test several times before this ride and my fiance did it as well several times just to be certain we were doing it right between the two of us. I had about 175 miles on it before the cutout. I reached out to eWheels and they suggested that trolleying the wheel down a couple of steps may actually weed out the bad controllers better than the test recommended by Inmotion. Stay safe out there, I couldn't imagine having this cutout in any other scenario. Now time to wait these agonizing weeks/months to get a fix before I can ride her again. Back to the 16s until then...

 

[Tawpie]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Would maybe bouncing the wheel on the ground be a test that could reproduce the required fast direction change without much risk?

I’m making this comment without reviewing the incidents but two things seem to happen often enough that they stick in my mind:

1. Cutouts while riding are at low speed, not blasting around

2. A bump seems to be involved, but not necessarily a “drop”

@mrelwood’s suggestion seems like a sound additional test, and perhaps adding one where you go jogging along while trollying the wheel and boinging over speed bumps. (I know, jogging???)

[Paul A]

Members have conducted tests properly, not induced a cutout, and then subsequently suffered a cut out when riding.

Only conclusive if testing produces a cut out failure.

Might be better to not test, and just have it repaired under warranty for free.

[Rawnei]

39 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Members have conducted tests properly, not induced a cutout, and then subsequently suffered a cut out when riding.

Only conclusive if testing produces a cut out failure.

Might be better to not test, and just have it repaired under warranty for free.

Will only happen if Inmotion instructs dealers that this is the case.

[supercurio]

Cameron Massie had a cut-out on his 2nd batch V12:

Quote

Within 17 miles [..] ate the pavement

He had a batch 1 initially but sent it in to eWheels for bearing replacement under warranty - and it burned during the Tucson service center fire. No luck.

He's somewhat confident to ride the replacement board after accumulating more riding distance, until the new board version.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by supercurio

[SupremTeamDallas]

I recently ordered my V12 prior to finding out about the Cutouts and issues with the V12. My dealer EUCO.US stated in emails to me that they tested the unit and it passed prior to sending to me.  I haven't received it yet to test. I questioned them on even if it passed, wouldn't the test degrade the internal components quicker and cause the unit to fail at some point during real world riding and they told me in writing that I shouldn't have anything to worry about since it passed. I have them on record saying that so we'll see when it arrives. If something should happen my lawyer would have a field day with them.

[supercurio]

Dealers are put in an impossible situation right now, between Inmotion's "stress test proves safety" and some dealers & customers who had the wheel fail on them after the stress test.

Regardless your legal strategy @SupremTeamDallas please act knowing there's a reduce but existing risk of cutoff in real-world use with your V12.
You make it mean what you think is relevant for yourself. IMO the minimum is wearing all the gear, avoiding riding around cars, no exceptions.

Hopefully the situation will shift within a week, because it's absurd.

[conecones]

1 hour ago, SupremTeamDallas said:

I recently ordered my V12 prior to finding out about the Cutouts and issues with the V12. My dealer EUCO.US stated in emails to me that they tested the unit and it passed prior to sending to me.  I haven't received it yet to test. I questioned them on even if it passed, wouldn't the test degrade the internal components quicker and cause the unit to fail at some point during real world riding and they told me in writing that I shouldn't have anything to worry about since it passed. I have them on record saying that so we'll see when it arrives. If something should happen my lawyer would have a field day with them.

With the current situation, you have already read these forum posts and therefore are willingly putting yourself at risk by riding the V12, even if you have something in writing from EUCO that says otherwise. Therefore, please don't bank on the lawyer as a solution of any kind.

In any case, money isn't the concern - its your own personal safety. There has already been at least one case where a highspeed cutout caused life-changing injuries to a rider sending them to the ER. Personally I only fell at 20 km/h and was fully geared but damaged my fingers to the extent that I won't be able to play the piano or guitar again for a long, long time which has been my mental stress relief during COVID. Thankfully I don't play these instruments as a profession!

I've been told by my local dealer that Inmotion has made plans to release new motherboards with new different MOSFETs(maybe same as HT version? but not confirmed), set to arrive March/April. All current repairs will be via MOSFET replacement or board replacement using the same originally specified MOSFETS. Even though I have received reassurances the repair is good, I will personally be limiting ride speed to 50km/h and avoiding all potholes, curbs, etc., until the new board has arrived and has been rider tested.

Edited January 18, 2022 by conecones

[Paul g]

38 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Hopefully the situation will shift within a week, because it's absurd.

And what should happen in a week time? We waited for longer than that and nothing seemed to change. The same InMotion “you can ride it after testing” and people still falling like flies. 

 

1 hour ago, SupremTeamDallas said:

I recently ordered my V12 prior to finding out about the Cutouts and issues with the V12. My dealer EUCO.US stated in emails to me that they tested the unit and it passed prior to sending to me.  I haven't received it yet to test. I questioned them on even if it passed, wouldn't the test degrade the internal components quicker and cause the unit to fail at some point during real world riding and they told me in writing that I shouldn't have anything to worry about since it passed. I have them on record saying that so we'll see when it arrives. If something should happen my lawyer would have a field day with them.

In my opinion many people live with false ideas and preconceptions about this wheel, and not with the facts about it. Just like all the Fox News followers still believing the election was rigged, because the only thing they’ve watched was Faux News. 

[GoGeorgeGo]

My one caution with banking on a legal defense would be your knowingly riding a dangerous contraption not technically regulated or approved for riding by any US entity. You may be assuming all risk by stepping on a unicycle in the first place. 

You will need to prove that the machine died of a design failure specifically, which it seems like not even inmotion themself can fully prove atm. And you will need to prove that you unknowingly rode a dangerous wheel, which will be hard considering the alleged email exchange. And you will need to prove monetary damages where incured from the failure and that EUCO or inmotion where unwilling to make you whole, i.e. provide a replacement. 

Im no lawyer, but someone riding a one wheeled semi experimental device that has a known issue, wouldn't be on the top of my pile of cases to take. 

[SupremTeamDallas]

@supercurio @conecones @Paul g @GoGeorgeGo

That last statement i made was more sarcastic than anything. I was just kind of floored that EUCO would say that i have nothing to worry about when clearly these units are still failing well after passing the stress test. Once I get it ill certainly gear up and take it easy to see what real world riding will trigger the cutoff.

[nosamplesplease]

1 hour ago, SupremTeamDallas said:

@supercurio @conecones @Paul g @GoGeorgeGo

That last statement i made was more sarcastic than anything. I was just kind of floored that EUCO would say that i have nothing to worry about when clearly these units are still failing well after passing the stress test. Once I get it ill certainly gear up and take it easy to see what real world riding will trigger the cutoff.

There are EUC dealers that sell a lot.

There are EUC dealers that have great customer service.

 

Some belong to both. Some don't.

[supercurio]

4 hours ago, Paul g said:

And what should happen in a week time? We waited for longer than that and nothing seemed to change. The same InMotion “you can ride it after testing” and people still falling like flies.

There are a few concurrent efforts to push Inmotion to understand and acknowledge how the stress test is not sufficient and that a voluntary recall is needed.

So I hope that these initiatives together will succeed, allowing to move forward again instead of remaining struck with the situation @SupremTeamDallas described.

Edited January 18, 2022 by supercurio