A lot of us, including the manufacturers will be the downfall of EUC market.

[RockyTop]

5 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The problem is, to provide that speed, the manufacturers produce costly machines that provide way more performance than 99% of us want.

This is a fairly new perspective for me. In the past all I have heard is, “We need bigger  batteries, more speed and torque” I am thrilled that I can finally buy a wheel that isn’t going to face plant me if I shift my weight or hit a bump at 25mph. I know people think that I am fat at 220 pounds yet I can still lye on the bottom of the pool motionless. (Fat floats, I don’t, never could) We still have small inexpensive wheels for people that need less. ( V8, MCM5, KS16s, V10, Tesla) 

 

15 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It's a shame manufacturers can't put some effort into trying to and make these devices road legal then I could at least use my wheel without fear of being fined.

 Agreed. 

[Planemo]

15 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Selling 40+mph machines to kids   

I would say a lot of adults can't be trusted at 40mph either tbf...

[RockyTop]

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Selling 40+mph machines to kids without driving license is just digging a grave for the whole industry.    

True! It would not have stopped me tho. I was building high speed death traps at that age. Did you know that you could take an old 6v car generator and a 12 volt car battery attached to a bicycle and hit about 40mph?

[Surfling]

I'll assume most kids will prolly ask their parents help buying a ~$3k toy and those that have the means will likely spend it on other bling. 

Just an assumption..

[Paul A]

EUC World database has grown over last year (over 4 000 000 km / 2 500 000 mi, over 400 000 of tours......

 

That seems to be a great source of data over many years, across numerous countries, that can be presented to governments as evidence of the widespread usage, responsibility and safety of EUC's, making the case for legalization.

[Rawnei]

46 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The problem is, to provide that speed, the manufacturers produce costly machines that provide way more performance than 99% of us want. Then we all complain of machines costing over $2K. My own Nik+ goes way faster than I'll ever need with a range that's way more than I'll ever need. It's a shame manufacturers can't put some effort into trying to and make these devices road legal then I could at least use my wheel without fear of being fined. As it stands, here in the UK, I'm unlikely to buy another wheel until the legal situation changes. Selling 40+mph machines to kids without driving license is just digging a grave for the whole industry.    

I just don't buy this 99% argument that people don't like to go fast, my group ride experiences is the opposite and so many videos online point towards the same trend of people like to go fast so where are you guys getting these numbers from? From the air is my guess. 🤷‍♂️

Legality is a whole other discussion and doesn't correlate with how people ride EUC's in actuality, also the legality situation in the UK is extreme compared to a lot of other countries that has a more relaxed stance even if it's a gray area and I doubt it would help if EUC's were speed capped to 25kmh your situation is not caused by potential speed rather by politics.

[Paul A]

Breathing in and filling the lungs with air should enable a person to float.

[mrelwood]

59 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The problem is, to provide that speed, the manufacturers produce costly machines that provide way more performance than 99% of us want.

The development will turn though, and I think we’re not far from it. IM and now KS entering the big boy game makes 40+ mph wheels the standard, and I’d expect the group that want even more to be much smaller than the ones that were asking for more than 30mph.

 We all remember how we at first didn’t believe we’d ever ride faster than 15mph. If all modern EUCs go 40+ mph, people will make the buying decision by other specs. And most experienced riders have probably already found their personal limit at under 40mph.

 

59 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

It's a shame manufacturers can't put some effort into trying to and make these devices road legal

It is. Considering how difficult it seems to be for the manufacturers to have a conversation even with the most enthusiastic and dedicated section of riders, hoping for them to start international political lobbying is quite a stretch.

[EUC Sharkman]

On 10/3/2021 at 4:07 PM, RockyTop said:

 

Not needed? My Sherman can barely keep up with bicycles. I needed two fully charged MSX (35mph)to keep up with my daughter on a bicycle. She would leave me on the down hills. When riding with cyclist I need to go 40 mph to keep up on the SHORT down hill areas. They commonly go 50- 100 miles in a day. A training cyclist can still out run me in the end. We still have the smaller EUC's. 

Came in for this. My standard for EUC speed and capability is, and I don’t think it’s too unreasonable here, is to be able to keep up with a regular pedal bicycle…Not an eBike, a bicycle, on a bike lane or similar as part of a road.

 

I think when folks see numbers like 25, 35, 40 mph, yeah it seems pretty fast by the numbers, but these speeds are commonly achievable by the bicyclists I meet, particularly on clear flat or downhill areas. I didn’t really know about it until actually being out there and riding alongside these bicyclists.

 

I don’t normally ride fast…usually in the common 20-25 mph with some bursts over 30 mph. But I’d like my EUC to be able to go fast. (without worrying about hitting the limits and cutting out) when needed.

 

 

[Mantraguy]

In reading this thread, I think the one thing that stands out for me is that we are a pretty diverse group of individuals, each with his/her own desires, skills, and definitions of what an EUC is and should be. Some of us like to ride technical trails, which probably often equates to shorter rides (distance-wise) and lower average speeds. Others like to go on long rides in the country, and some are just speed demons with no desire for anything but flat-out speed. Many of us probably want to do a bit of all of that, which often makes some of the stats (average speed, for example) pretty much irrelevant.

Case in point, I did a ride yesterday on my Sherman that was 153km (95 miles). Most of my route is on side-streets or paved trails, where I'll often cruise along comfortably at about 40-45km/h (25-28 mph). Riding for short sections of highway is unfortunately unavoidable in this area, mainly where I need to cross a bridge etc. In this case, I may wait for a gap in traffic and then fly across at 60km/h (37 mph) or more, before the next 'batch' of traffic catches me. I've found I can avoid some of the busier roads by ducking on to an old, overgrown decommissioned road or a singletrack trail where, due to mud, sand, roots etc., my speed will drop down to under 10km/h (6 mph) for up to a half hour or so. By the time I've gotten to my destination, I look at my average speed and am surprised to see something like 22 km/h (under 14 mph), despite the fact that I feel that most of the time, I'm cruising along at ~45 km/h (28 mph) enjoying the scenery.

For me (and from looking at "How this tour compares with others" for my rides on EUC.World), it would appear that many of us buy a wheel with no real plans of exploring its true potential, or perhaps of even learning to do all the things it's capable of. I know that others have taken the Sherman to near 80km/h (50 mph) but I have very little desire to push it over about 60km/h (37 mph). Knowing that it still has plenty of torque left at 60 gives me a certain amount of confidence that I'll be ok keeping up with that bit of traffic on a narrow road when I need it to. Yesterdays ride was "634 % longer than other riders average on Veteran Sherman" which tells me that most people are using the Sherman for shorter rides, maybe because they enjoy other aspects of the capability of the wheel, or that they enjoy doing shorter rides most of the time and still get out for a full day excursion when time allows.

I enjoy watching occasional videos of all sorts of other skills the riders demonstrate on their EUCs, including big jumps or even riding backwards with one foot. Despite plans of learning to ride backwards this summer, I never bothered actually doing it - I was happy just getting out for long rides in the country at an average speed of 22km/h (apparently). We all enjoy different things about these wheels that that's one of the coolest things about them.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Mantraguy

[AtlasP]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:02 AM, Rawnei said:

I just don't buy this 99% argument that people don't like to go fast, my group ride experiences is the opposite and so many videos online point towards the same trend of people like to go fast so where are you guys getting these numbers from? From the air is my guess. 🤷‍♂️

 

Welcome to 2021, where someone like @Seba provides objective data for literally hundreds of thousands of trips (approaching half a million), and yet someone who just doesn't like this data and what it means feels completely confident coming along and saying "Where are they even getting these numbers from?" and pulling a ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯ emoji as if this counts as reasonable doubt and will magically make the mean ol' numbers go away and stop interfering with them feeling/believing whatever they want. The answer to this question (where is this data coming from) is provided literally in the same thread you're commenting in--the data set is clearly sourced/well-documented and massive and undeniable. We can discuss/debate how to interpret those numbers/what they do and don't mean, but anecdotal experience especially in such a narrow bubble as these forums or some random local riding group doesn't come close to rebutting such a massive data set.

Edited October 7, 2021 by AtlasP

[Tawpie]

I know for a fact that I go faster than the app says I went, I used my special 6 inch long ruler to confirm the distance travelled. Is the ruler accurate you ask? It measures a brand new 2 x 4 at 2 inches by 4 inches, so, absolutely.

[mike_bike_kite]

5 hours ago, div said:

@AtlasP 
@Rawnei was quoting @mike_bike_kite who stated that "the manufacturers produce costly machines that provide way more performance than 99% of us want.". That 99% is pulled out of somewhere which isn't @Seba's stats. Seba doesn't have stats of "what people want".

Would the sentence "manufacturers produce costly machines that provide way more performance than 99% of us will ever use" be more accurate for you? Unfortunately, nobody has stats on what people want but we can see what most riders actually bought which is as close as we'll get - the Inmotion V8 was the most popular EUC sold, often outselling all the different models combined from other manufacturers. Your Sherman might be a great wheel for certain types of riding but very few want to spend $3K+ on a wheel or man handle all that weight around. 

[Rawnei]

7 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Welcome to 2021, where someone like @Seba provides objective data for literally hundreds of thousands of trips (approaching half a million), and yet someone who just doesn't like this data and what it means feels completely confident coming along and saying "Where are they even getting these numbers from?" and pulling a ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯ emoji as if this counts as reasonable doubt and will magically make the mean ol' numbers go away and stop interfering with them feeling/believing whatever they want. The answer to this question (where is this data coming from) is provided literally in the same thread you're commenting in--the data set is clearly sourced/well-documented and massive and undeniable. We can discuss/debate how to interpret those numbers/what they do and don't mean, but anecdotal experience especially in such a narrow bubble as these forums or some random local riding group doesn't come close to rebutting such a massive data set.

Funny guy, people posting that speeds over 30mph-35mph are not necessary are posting purely out of personal preference and when I challenge the illlogical argumentation behind that (which usually boils down to "but nobody ride fasts!") you call me out on posting from my own personal preference. 😂

Re-read this thread any many like it and you will find this same argument being repeated "we don't need fast wheels because I never ride that fast" and that's really short sighted way of looking at things.

40 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Would the sentence "manufacturers produce costly machines that provide way more performance than 99% of us will ever use" be more accurate for you? Unfortunately, nobody has stats on what people want but we can see what most riders actually bought which is as close as we'll get - the Inmotion V8 was the most popular EUC sold, often outselling all the different models combined from other manufacturers. Your Sherman might be a great wheel for certain types of riding but very few want to spend $3K+ on a wheel or man handle all that weight around. 

And here we go again, you're grasping for arguments why speed need to be a limit for others than yourself.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Rawnei

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Rawnei said:

And here we go again, you're grasping for arguments why speed need to be a limit for others than yourself.

Not at all. You're saying that riders want faster wheels, I'm simply pointing out that most (in fact nearly all) riders don't want that speed. Manufacturers are happy to build wheels that supply that speed but obviously they cost a fortune - nearly all the current crop of wheels do nearly 40+mph and cost over $2k. Everyone believes that their use case is typical for everyone else but at least my belief is backed up by the hard figures produced by EUC World. I'm not saying that fast wheels shouldn't be produced but I'd much prefer if manufacturers concentrated on producing affordable wheels that simply met our requirements.

[Lex Smith]

Does this forum support Polls?  If so maybe that would answer the question regarding speed, at least among our membership :-)

For me if there was a wheel that was capable of 200km/h and cost $20K I'd buy it . . . if I had $20K to spare . . . which I don't.  If I had said wheel I'm not saying I'd ever ride it at 200km/h but it would be nice to know it could do it (and yeah pretty sure I'd ride it at least once at 200km/h).

[Paul A]

Maybe plot the EUC world data and see if it resembles a normal bell curve distribution, or some other shape.

X and Y axis variables can be whatever the interest is for.

[Lillerskates]

""I'm not saying that fast wheels shouldn't be produced but I'd much prefer if manufacturers concentrated on producing affordable wheels that simply met our requirements.""

Ditto that! Why aren't there other choices besides mten3 for smaller wheels really, for example, Anything within that range of lightweight? I think people would perhaps be more interested even in some of those elusive 8 or 5 inch wheels than the companies may be estimating, or who knows why maybe it's a safety handling issue that causes the leer away from the below 16 inch wheel developments ... anyway I'd much prefer a lightweight wheel that goes 30. 35 than a whopping 45 that's half my body weight ..

i like to move the mten3 with the effortless touch of my slightest direction, the sheer weight of the next steps up makes it easy for me to not be too eagerly hyped up while saving for a wheel that goes faster, it's kind of a huge turn off really. I'm more looking forward to the 100+ mile range of say the Sherman than the speed boost considering what I'm imagining is a pretty severe drag on maneuverable lightness and joy of effortless gliding steer. 

really a 20mph wheel that went 100 miles sounds nearly preferable to me over a 40mph that goes the same if the difference is in the 20-30lb vs. the 60-70 weight, but that's just in my imagination maybe because I haven't actually tried one of the behemoth heavy wheels myself yet. It'd be sort of fun riding longer slower for the same distance anyway.. and still potentially go across the country charging at similar waypoints' apartness(;) from one another

[Rawnei]

47 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Not at all. You're saying that riders want faster wheels, I'm simply pointing out that most (in fact nearly all) riders don't want that speed. Manufacturers are happy to build wheels that supply that speed but obviously they cost a fortune - nearly all the current crop of wheels do nearly 40+mph and cost over $2k. Everyone believes that their use case is typical for everyone else but at least my belief is backed up by the hard figures produced by EUC World. I'm not saying that fast wheels shouldn't be produced but I'd much prefer if manufacturers concentrated on producing affordable wheels that simply met our requirements.

I'm not saying that at all, we already have wheels that can do 40mph+ and a lot of people are content with that (myself included) but there are arguments proposed here in on this forum and in this thread repeatedly over and over that new wheels should be even slower than existing wheels for personal preference reasons.

So the issue I'm arguing isn't even about speed, it's about assuming everyone else share the same personal preference, it's like me saying well I don't use the headlight so we don't need headlights on new wheels.

Another thing that people who are arguing for slower wheels seem to miss entirely is that more potential speed = higher safety margin, just because you have a wheel that can do 40mph+ there is nobody is forcing you to go that fast if you don't want to. I would even argue that if all wheels were designed for 25kmh/15mph speeds we would see more accidents due to people pushing their wheels too hard.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Rawnei

[Rawnei]

32 minutes ago, Lillerskates said:

really a 20mph wheel that went 100 miles sounds nearly preferable to me over a 40mph that goes the same if the difference is in the 20-30lb vs. the 60-70 weight, but that's just in my imagination maybe because I haven't actually tried one of the behemoth heavy wheels myself yet. It'd be sort of fun riding longer slower for the same distance anyway.. and still potentially go across the country charging at similar waypoints' apartness(;) from one another

A lot of the weight come from the batteries, you are arguing you want a wheel that can do 100miles well then it's going to weight more because it needs more batteries, the slower you ride the further you can go, you don't need to ride at the speed limit. And as you say you haven't tried bigger wheels perhaps you should? You don't need to jump from an Mten3 to a Monster Pro the range in-between is huge.

[Lillerskates]

Unfortunately I don't see a lot of wheels in the between range, either it's heavier than mten3 and actually goes slower, or it's over half my body weight and goes 35-45mph..what gives? =(

But yes, me and my scraped up knee screech a resounding ditto in sentimental regret that mten3 didn't have enough motor potential and cut-out from riding the triple-beep earlier on in my EUC fanaticism enthusiasm

 

edit: but fair enough, what i should have said was i'd very much like a 45mph wheel that only goes 20 miles in range and is (even Somewhat) closer to an mten3 in size or even just lightness.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2021 by Lillerskates

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Lex Smith said:

For me if there was a wheel that was capable of 200km/h and cost $20K I'd buy it

Don’t be modest, 300km/h and $50K are even bigger numbers!

 

42 minutes ago, Lillerskates said:

Unfortunately I don't see a lot of wheels in the between range, either it's heavier than mten3 and actually goes slower, or it's over half my body weight and goes 35-45mph..what gives? =(

The thing with mTen and other GW wheels is that they’re not top speed limited. If KS or IM would sell the exact same wheel, the top speed would be limited to something like 25km/h. And sounded like you have already learned why.

 

42 minutes ago, Lillerskates said:

i'd very much like a 45mph wheel that only goes 20 miles in range and is (even Somewhat) closer to an mten3 in size or even just lightness.

Unfortunately there’ll never be one. A 10” tire diameter is simply not suitable for those speeds on an EUC on regular bumpy roads, no matter how much power the battery, controller and motor had to spare.

 If the GW approach is fine for you, there are the MCM5, Tesla, and sub 2KWh Nikolas to fill the void between an mTen and “wheel’s weighing half your weight”.

[Seba]

12 hours ago, div said:

@AtlasP 
@Rawnei was quoting @mike_bike_kite who stated that "the manufacturers produce costly machines that provide way more performance than 99% of us want.". That 99% is pulled out of somewhere which isn't @Seba's stats. Seba doesn't have stats of "what people want".

Numbers I posted are just averages. While it may represent some kind of "undefined majority", I would refrain from pulling anything from these values for now. I plan to create detailed statistical analysis that will be much more helpful in determining our habits, preferences, riding style etc. So please guys, calm down and wait patiently  

[RockyTop]

On 10/5/2021 at 1:10 PM, Paul A said:

Breathing in and filling the lungs with air should enable a person to float.

Response to, We need big wheels for big people. I am not fat! I don’t float at 220 pounds. 

- Last tested two weeks ago- 

Me right now, old and out of shape …kinda not really. If fill my lungs to busting I tend to stay near the surface but not even close to floating on my back. I grew up swimming in the ocean. At 5 years old I failed a Florida  swimming test because I could not float on my back. I would sink to the bottom like a rock. The teachers said that I was not concentrating.   While in the Navy my numbers were flagged every health test for being over weight. I had to go down and sit in a tub of water to measure my volume ( water displacement) They declared that I was actually severely under weight at 200 pounds. Bones and muscles, no fat. Honestly I looked like a skeleton wrapped tight with plastic. After a few test they just had me jump in a tank and sit at the bottom motionless for 15 seconds. “You pass”  At 17 YO I remember putting on kids arm floats and sitting on a Sun Drop container filled with air on the bottom of the pool. (Sun drop container - empty one gallon chlorine container that doubled as a buoy after use) I am just dense I guess. As hard as I try I don’t bruise and I don’t break bones … (except fingers) 

In The Navy we had another guy (nuclear physicist) that weighed 380 pounds about 6’ 2” foot tall. He could not float either. He was shaped like an outhouse (square not fluffy) and sounded like a talking horse. When his voice rumbled your insides did too. I miss that guy. He was usually quiet, but knew when to drop a punchline. Three or four words and you were laughing for days. 

[mike_bike_kite]

Perhaps your bones were secretly replaced with Adamantium?

either that or you just have very small lungs.