A lot of us, including the manufacturers will be the downfall of EUC market.

[LoveAll]

I just started using an Electric unicycle and I love it, I was going to buy a E-skateboard but stumble upon this brand new world and I can't seem to get enough of it. And I'm sure a lot of people feel the same way but here's the problem. 

Speaking for the U.S. here,

These machines started as a form of relaxation, where you could use it to walk your dog, or ride it around in the park or purchase it as a gift for your kids  but slowly the market shifted to accommodate consumers needs and request. Where now we have wheels that can travel 70 miles on one charge and travel 50 +MPH. And majority of time, you're allow to ride it on sidewalk or on the streets, nobody really care. On the contrary for a bicycle, as soon as you leave the bicycle path and go on a sidewalk, a police officer might bother you (speaking from experience on this one).

 I've heard of some horrible accident that occur, some riders errors but some manufacturer errors, and due to the fact these machine aren't regulated like most other PEVs, manufacturer sometimes fall back on making sure that all the components are integrated properly without necessarily putting the riders or others on the road in danger. But quite frankly, most people don't seems to care because it's either they believe a youtuber or don't think it will ever happen to their wheels. 

Let's look at Onewheel, which I'm sure some of you are familiar with, nosedive is currently a big issue for them and last time I remember they were being sued by a couple of people for their negligence to address the situation." How ridiculous to literally have a law firm and number ready to filed a class action lawsuit" https://www.justice4you.com/blog/onewheel-defects.html. It's not even their fault quite frankly, the riders should understand the machine limit and stopped pushing it but still being sued and bring negative attention to PEVs.

But what happen when an EUC, actually kills someone or caused a horrible crash with multiple vehicles. It will happen eventually, just a matter of when and where, whether you think you're the best EUC rider out there or the worst, it can potentially happen to all of us. A lot of things we as a community seems to tolerate from some of these manufactures, are mind boggling, even when you're paying 1000+, 2000+ dollars for a product. Sometime I wonder if  it is because, they're not being made in the U.S. So most people just seems to turn a blind eye or come up with excuses to explain the manufacturer shortcoming. 

Imagine if you were driving a brand new motorcycle from your favorite brand and it cut out and cause a crash or caught on fire. You would sued the company and the negative PR would just be horrible for any company but not for EUC yet apparently.

But I believe , we are  partially to blame as a community, because we get fool by the term "Enthusiast", which is why sometime you hear youtuber used that term to justify a price on a product," they're targeting enthusiast with that specific wheels", when the truth is, the company just want to make as much money as possible. But the same so call "enthusiast" are begging the companies and tricking their fans base to also demand that the company release wheels that we know damn well are so unnecessary, but here we are. 

Truth be told, 99.999999999999% of us  will never travel higher than 40 MPH and probably will never go on one charge 70 miles. But the demands just keeps on climbing. Some might say well, a car can travel 100 MPH but that doesn't mean you have to, but a car is alose heavily regulated to compensate for that ( insurance, government test, airbags etc., renewal of license ...) just to name a few thinsg one must do to be able to legally drive a car.  

One of the primary reason, majority of us even bother with an EUC, is the freedom that it provides but based on my research in the past month. I fear that these manufacturer and us will be our downfall. Godspeed to us all

Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

I love EUC, and literally ready to purchase my next one but I guess this is something that I just had to put out there.

Edited October 3, 2021 by LoveAll

[.....]

Yup... so enjoy it while there's still time.

[Surfling]

32 minutes ago, LoveAll said:

Please correct me if I'm wrong about any of this.

.......No offense, bruddah but what did you eat or smoke beforehand?

Asking for a friend..... seriously.

 

[LoveAll]

Smoke the truth I guess.

[RockyTop]

2 hours ago, LoveAll said:

Truth be told, 99.999999999999% of us  will never travel higher than 40 MPH and probably will never go on one charge 70 miles.

I am a 0.000000000001 percenter !!     I think at least 10% of us are.  

[.....]

18 minutes ago, LoveAll said:

Smoke the truth I guess.

I was gna say.. "the red pill"

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, LoveAll said:

I can't seem to get enough of it.

This exact phrase is the reason for many aspects of the current markets.

 

5 hours ago, LoveAll said:

Let's look at Onewheel

I’m not sure if it’s just where my focus has been or my confirmation bias, but aren’t the OneWheels a bit on their way out already? That would make sense as well, since we live in a time where all kinds of strange contraptions are being sold as transport, and some of them simply catch on better than others.

There are many ex OneWheelers among EUC riders as well, as the EUC has simply taken the bigger crown being more fun, practical, and even safer. Who’s to say that there won’t be something new invented in the next few years that will steal the crown from EUCs in ten?

 

5 hours ago, LoveAll said:

But what happen when an EUC, actually kills someone

In case you didn’t know, known deaths of EUCs riders (while riding) is in the better half of a dozen already. None of them seem to include an EUC failure though. Whatever a human can do, human can die doing.

 

5 hours ago, LoveAll said:

A lot of things we as a community seems to tolerate from some of these manufactures, are mind boggling

Which boils down to the very first quite. The choice is rather straighforward, tolerate or don’t ride. Luckily the manufacturers are competing for sales numbers, so once a feature becomes wanted enough, others simply must follow suit or switch back to manufacturing something else entirely. Suspension being a clear recent example of this. There’s also our good friend Jason pushing manufacturers to include and improve the safety features the community has been most vocal about. Now that IM and KS also sell 40+ mph wheels, GW/BG is surely starting to have a hard time unless they seriously improve their products. So it’s all definitely getting better.

 

5 hours ago, LoveAll said:

wheels that we know damn well are so unnecessary

I’ll have to disagree here though. There is a narrow section of people with chronic illnesses that have gotten a straight up miraculous upgrade in life quality, physical shape, and accessibility due to EUCs alone. People who would otherwise be at the verge of a wheelchair. To them EUCs can even feel less unnecessary than the whole western healthcare system.

 

If the EUC will eventually plummet, be it due to legislation or whatever, I’m not sure if anyone can point a blaming finger. No matter what sparks the actual downfall, if it will happen at some point, it was going to happen sooner or later anyway. I just hope that if it does, there will be something relevant to ride instead by then.

[div]

With @RockyTop here, I’d say easily 10% in the use case you mention. I (and the riders around me) regularly do 70+miles in one trip. Whether you have to charge is limited by the battery, not the rider.

Also, about being necessary: the EUC is my primary way of transportation, I don’t even have a drivers license, and have no plan of getting one. This is the case for many people living in cities.

The EUC is so spot on for size to efficiency that I doubt it will ever disappear.

As for the day a EUC rider kills someone: it already happened, an old lady in SE Asia. It’s sad and too bad, but nothing different from any other means of transportation. Cars kill thousands of people every day.

“Mark my words”: watch out for the Dunnig Kruger effect.. It’s all cool to have an opinion, but that’s what it is.

Edited October 3, 2021 by div

[Surfling]

8 hours ago, LoveAll said:

Smoke the truth I guess

We'll take "guess" with a grain of salt. Truth hurts, I once hear..

All kidding aside, C'est la vie - technology gets better, Health and environmental issues gets worse.

Start smoking "happy" and enjoy the ride while you can........YOLO

 

[LoveAll]

Mark my word, might have been the wrong sentence to use, but after reading everyone replies. I have to say, this is a great community to be in and I'm in a very similar situation where I have my license but barely used it. I have a car in the city where I live and I barely touch it. I just wished some of these manufacturer had shops in other cities. I really want to try a few wheels before I  pull the plug on one.

Anyway, great discussion and thanks for the replies.

[Richardo]

Not exactly on topic, but the Onewheel seems to be going strong in the usa, and as far as I know USA is the only place onewheel was ever really popular. 
 

I think the recent lawsuits against onewheel are going to determine the future of both onewheel and EUCs in the usa, as that precedent will certainly set the tone for the future.

WrongWay’s recent video about european EUC legality really set me to thinking about this topic. I know EUCs are more popular in europe than the USA, but how the hell did such specific legislation get passed so soon?  Is there already some regressive crap working its way through my state legislature and im just not aware?

makes me want to see it i could get the active transport alliance interested in EUCs to start getting some advocacy started before there is negative pressure against them. 

[RockyTop]

2 minutes ago, Richardo said:

I think the recent lawsuits against onewheel are going to determine the future of both onewheel and EUCs in the usa, as that precedent will certainly set the tone for the future.

I don't think that EUC's are part of this lawsuit. The only reason OW is being sued is because they are an American company. EUC's are more black market.

[Chriull]

10 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I don't think that EUC's are part of this lawsuit. The only reason OW is being sued is because they are an American company. EUC's are more black market.

If bought from aliexpress/chinese shops - the customer is the importer himself and so his personal responsabilty.

Don't know how this works out in details if shipped from local warehouses? Maybe law suits could be filed against the "warehouses"?

If bought from a local reseller/online shop within the same "legal market" this reseller is the importer and distributor - fully legally responsible.

Maybe the market is too small by now for lawyers to see enough money to grab from euc dealers compared to a manufacturer...

[mhpr262]

33 minutes ago, Richardo said:

Not exactly on topic, but the Onewheel seems to be going strong in the usa, and as far as I know USA is the only place onewheel was ever really popular. 

There is a reason for that, and that reason is repairs. You basically have to send your OneWheel back all the way across the Atlantic for ANY issue, and shipping, spare part and repair will usually end up being more than the residual value of the OW. The manufacturer is doing all they can to undermine the right to repair principle, for any body besides themselves.

There is a big thread about it on the r/onewheel subreddit and I did some reading out of curiosity yesterday. Lots of people are pissed off, and "FFM!" (Fuck Future Motion) seems to be popular battle cry over there.

Looks like they will end up being just another company that put themselves out of business just for the short term profits and out of stubbornness.

[Menace]

18 hours ago, LoveAll said:

Truth be told, 99.999999999999% of us  will never travel higher than 40 MPH and probably will never go on one charge 70 miles

IDK about that. When I first got into EUCs I thought I would never want more than 18mph and here I am doing over 40 on every ride. The only thing keeping me from going 70 miles is the range of my RS. I think that a lot of people go faster than you think. I agree with @RockyTop. I would guess that more like 15-20% go 40+. Maybe fewer go 70 miles, but I think that's still like 10%. My guess would be that most people who own a wheel that is capable of 40mph+ and 70 miles use those capabilities at least occasionally.

I think people forget how short these things have been around and how much progress we've already made. I haven't been here since the start, but if you compare models from 5-6 years ago to this years newest releases(s20 for instance), there is a heck of a difference.

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Menace said:

When I first got into EUCs I thought I would never want more than 18mph and here I am doing over 40 on every ride.

Seba used his EUC World app to report on what speed and distance most people did. I don't recall the exact numbers but I think the average speed for EUC riders was around 15mph, with barely any riders going faster than 25mph. That was over a year ago so perhaps wheels are faster now but I still think it's a tiny minority that consistently ride over 30mph - I guess you have to be rich enough to afford a wheel capable of those speeds but young enough to ignore the consequences of accidents at those speeds.

[AtlasP]

20 hours ago, Menace said:

IDK about that. When I first got into EUCs I thought I would never want more than 18mph and here I am doing over 40 on every ride. The only thing keeping me from going 70 miles is the range of my RS. I think that a lot of people go faster than you think. I agree with @RockyTop. I would guess that more like 15-20% go 40+. Maybe fewer go 70 miles, but I think that's still like 10%. My guess would be that most people who own a wheel that is capable of 40mph+ and 70 miles use those capabilities at least occasionally.

I'm afraid your hunch flat-out contradicts the available data. The author of EUC World, the biggest third-party EUC ride-tracking app, has revealed rider speed statistics:

Quote

 

According to EUC World data:

• for all tours recorded, a typical maximum speed is 32 km/h (32.8 km/h median, 31.8 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 17 km/h (17.3 km/h median, 17 km/h average). Average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on almost 55,000 tours, over a total distance of over 500,000 kilometres.
• for tours at least 5 km long, a typical maximum speed is 40 km/h (38.9 km/h median, 40.9 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 20 km/h (20 km/h median, 20.5 km/h average). Again - average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on almost 27,000 tours, over a total distance of over 456,000 kilometres.
• for tours at least 50 km long, a typical maximum speed is 45-50 km/h (43.2 km/h median, 54.2 km/h average). Typical average riding speed is about 22 km/h (20.7 km/h median, 23 km/h average). Again - average riding speed doesn't include any stops or breaks. Data based on over 900 tours, over a total distance of over 67,000 kilometres.

As we can see, riders mostly ride with average speed of only about 20 km/h (about 13 mph) and this is quite constant value, regardless of riding distance.

[Source: https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/16554-inmotion-v11-2020/page/28/?tab=comments#comment-308064 ]

 

And that's just the users of EUC World, which would be heavily skewed *toward* enthusiast riders (not including all the casuals who only use the stock app or no app at all, and who would just bring all those numbers down even further). There's really little room for debate when we have such a massive data set. On one hand you have the skewed anecdotes of enthusiasts in their bubble ("well people on the niche enthusiast forums and my few buddies in our local riding group..."); on the other hand is actual data from over 55,000(!) EUC trips from the biggest enthusiast-centric third-party ride-tracking app.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of EUC usage is similar to a bicycle and limited to the environments where those speeds make sense (residential neighborhoods, bike paths, urban centers with lower speeds in between frequent intersections, etc). The 30+ mph street EUC riders are basically the EUC community's equivalent of spandex-clad sports bicyclists--a miniscule high-performance niche subgroup who bear little resemblance to the majority of riders. And then there's a group of enthusiasts somewhere in between those two extremes, which is likely the majority constituency of a forum such as this (a step above casual riders but still likely topping out somewhere in the upper 20s/low 30s, but also favoring longer ranges, etc).

Edit: it appears @mike_bike_kite beat me to this point but because I was too busy digging out the actual data to reference. We'll call it a draw. ;-p

Edited October 4, 2021 by AtlasP

[LoveAll]

My main concern really is with those that don't seem to see what wrong with an EUC flying at 50 plus MPH. To me it seems like every single year a new euc is being release with more capability than the last. I must say once again, it's not  needed,(my personal opinion).  EUC seems to be getting heavier and heavier to accommodate for larger batteries, more speed, more range. I guess for some it's great but remember one of the primary reason we all love this form of transportation so much, it's because it's portable and easy to move around with.

Edited October 3, 2021 by LoveAll

[RockyTop]

 

Not needed? My Sherman can barely keep up with bicycles. I needed two fully charged MSX (35mph)to keep up with my daughter on a bicycle. She would leave me on the down hills. When riding with cyclist I need to go 40 mph to keep up on the SHORT down hill areas. They commonly go 50- 100 miles in a day. A training cyclist can still out run me in the end. We still have the smaller EUC's. 

[AtlasP]

2 hours ago, LoveAll said:

My main concern really is with those that don't seem to see what wrong with an EUC flying at 50 plus MPH. To me it seems like every single year a new euc is being release with more capability than the last. I must say once again, it's not  needed,(my personal opinion).  EUC seems to be getting heavier and heavier to accommodate for larger batteries, more speed, more range. I guess for some it's great but remember one of the primary reason we all love this form of transportation so much, it's because it's portable and easy to move around with.

As the market matures it will continue to split/separate into distinct sub-categories (not just of the hardware but also the corresponding usage contexts & even ridership). The same as motorcycles have cruisers, sport, touring, dirt bikes, etc., we're starting to see clearly drawn distinctions in EUCs--last-mile commuter and/or casual bicycle-class/bicycle-replacements (upper teens/low 20s mph), higher-end cyclist or roughly-moped-class (upper 20s/low 30s mph), wannabe-motorcycle-class (approaching 40+ mph and beyond), off-roading/motocross-class, etc. And again, these aren't just categories of devices and cost, but really completely separate sub-communities of usage & riders, which by this point have little-to-nothing in common with one-another.

I agree with you that EUCs excel particularly in the same micro-mobility space as bicycles--and ultimately just as the number of casual bicyclists has always dwarfed the number of spandex warriors or mopeds or motorcycles, of course the number of last-mile commuter and/or bicycle-class EUCs will dwarf anything larger/faster--because that's how the majority of people perceive and have used all micro-mobility devices of any kind throughout history (bicycles, skateboards, scooters, roller-blades, etc).

Edited October 4, 2021 by AtlasP

[Menace]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Seba used his EUC World app to report on what speed and distance most people did. I don't recall the exact numbers but I think the average speed for EUC riders was around 15mph, with barely any riders going faster than 25mph. That was over a year ago so perhaps wheels are faster now but I still think it's a tiny minority that consistently ride over 30mph - I guess you have to be rich enough to afford a wheel capable of those speeds but young enough to ignore the consequences of accidents at those speeds.

 

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

I'm afraid your 'hunch' flat-out contradicts the available data. The author of EUC World, the biggest third-party EUC ride-tracking app, has revealed rider speed statistics:

And that's just the users of EUC World, which would be heavily skewed *toward* enthusiast riders (not including all the casuals who only use the stock app or no app at all, and who would just bring all those numbers down even further). There's really little room for debate when we have such a massive data set. On one hand you have the skewed anecdotes of enthusiasts in their bubble ("well people on the niche enthusiast forums and my few buddies in our local riding group..."); on the other hand is actual data from over 55,000(!) EUC trips from the biggest enthusiast-centric third-party ride-tracking app.

The bottom line is that the vast majority of EUC usage is similar to a bicycle and limited to the environments where those speeds make sense (residential neighborhoods, bike paths, urban centers with lower speeds in between frequent intersections, etc). The 30+ mph street EUC riders are basically the EUC community's equivalent of spandex-clad sports bicyclists--a miniscule high-performance niche subgroup who bear little resemblance to the majority of riders. And then there's a group of enthusiasts somewhere in between those two extremes, which is likely the majority constituency of a forum such as this (a step above casual riders but still likely topping out somewhere in the upper 20s/low 30s, but also favoring longer ranges, etc).

Edit: it appears @mike_bike_kite beat me to this point but because I was too busy digging out the actual data to reference. We'll call it a draw. ;-p

I'm not sure about that. Sure, you have the numbers, but they are definitely not accurate of all riders. Like you said, I think that the EUC world statistics are skewed towards a certain type of rider. Not just enthusiast, but a certain type of enthusiast. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these statistics are for tours. I use euc world but never record tours. This skews the data in favor of the type that likes to record tours, which also seem to be the older and slower riders. The data doesn't represent those who simply grab their wheel and go ride without bothering with recording a tour, who would seem to be the younger faster riding generation. 

Another way of seeing this is that if you based your evaluation of an entire populations fitness on statistics from one health app, your data would not accurately represent that population. This is the equivalent.

My perception is likely a bit skewed by the many videos you see of EUCs on the internet, but so is yours.

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

for all tours recorded, a typical maximum speed is 32 km/h (32.8 km/h median, 31.8 km/h average)

Heres some math: (28kmh*0.9)+(70kmh*0.1)/1 = about 32. So if 90% ride with a max of 28 and 10% ride with max of 70, the average would be 32. Obviously these are kind of arbitrary numbers, but it gives you some sense.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Menace

[Menace]

38 minutes ago, LoveAll said:

My main concern really is with those that don't seem to see what wrong with an EUC flying at 50 plus MPH. To me it seems like every single year a new euc is being release with more capability than the last. I must say once again, it's not  needed,(my personal opinion).  EUC seems to be getting heavier and heavier to accommodate for larger batteries, more speed, more range. I guess for some it's great but remember one of the primary reason we all love this form of transportation so much, it's because it's portable and easy to move around with.

Id like to hear what you think is wrong with riding at 50mph, I see that it is not appropriate in certain circumstances, but not in general. I respect your opinion, but it is needed for me. I wanna go fast. But does it mean that it is wrong for others to ride at 40mph+ because you don't see the need for you?

Edited October 3, 2021 by Menace

[RockyTop]

I don't use an app while riding. ......... The vacuum cleaner lady, a 50 year old grandma of two commonly bumps the "please decelerate" on her 18XL. ( set at 29mph) 

[Menace]

4 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

The vacuum cleaner lady, a 50 year old grandma of two commonly bumps the "please decelerate" on her 18XL. ( set at 29mph) 

Sounds like a cool vacuum cleaner lady, also sounds like she needs a faster wheel.

[.....]

2 hours ago, Menace said:

Id like to hear what you think is wrong with riding at 50mph, I see that it is not appropriate in certain circumstances, but not in general. I respect your opinion, but it is needed for me. I wanna go fast. But does it mean that it is wrong for others to ride at 40mph+ because you don't see the need for you?

Braking distance, emergency manuevers, safety equipment, proper lighting and kinetec energy. What happens when an 80lb wheel traveling at 50mph, heads into an intersection or park without a rider on it? Who pays when the rider can't afford the damages?  On private courses there is absolutely ZERO problem with doing whatever speed the owner allows. I think the OP was pointing to the idea that there are very few legal 'vehicles' that go 50+ mph, without some form of licensing or manufacture safety requirements. Again, I think the OP was thinking more in terms of public use in shared areas. Hell, even mopeds require licensing, lights, brakes and insurance on most public roadways and are prohibited on most sidewalks and paths.  We have long since passed the speeds and power that mopeds are regulated by, on our EUC's. I enjoy using my sherman as if it were a street legal vehicle. I will gladly ignore the obvious that we are being overlooked for now, and not dive too far into the reality of social responsibility on the roadways. Its called "having your cake and eating it too.

Eucs are freaking slow. 50mph is really a joke. The need for speed shall be filled with a more capable vehicle for me...

Edited October 4, 2021 by ShanesPlanet