INMOTION V12

[SanDiegoGuy]

I wish we have a chance to trade in our batch 2 V12 for the new HT (high torque) version.  I even do not mind paying for the difference in price.

[Bikemike2777]

11 minutes ago, SanDiegoGuy said:

I wish we have a chance to trade in our batch 2 V12 for the new HT (high torque) version.  I even do not mind paying for the difference in price.

I don't want the ht stator. I'd just want the controller for the regular motor so I don't sacrifice top end speed and a saftey buffer zone

[onizukagto]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

And this is where the shit will hit the fan in the western world. If a rider gets seriously hurt (or worse) as a result of a V12 failing due to this fault, even after a dealer has already done the 'stress test', the rider will have every right to go after the dealer for compensation. I know if I was a dealer, there is no way on earth I would be selling ANY V12's right now, even if they did pass the test. It just wouldn't be worth the aggro, or potential financial consequences.

Let's be realistic, if this was true. When begode started exploding, none of the affected models should be selling right now. 

But did any of the dealers stop? 

Naa. 

 

Then again I guess they knew gotway doesn't give a fuck. And most importantly, the riders who buys them don't give a fuck. 

But inmotion? Well, I guess people hold them to a higher standard. 

A compliment I suppose. 

[EUC Phenomenon]

I'm not sure if this is possible but could InMotion make a stress test through the software? So all a person would have to do is select the test in the menu and lift the wheel up and the test would run, 10 second or so at a time. I'm trying to think of a way to make it easier, since some people are having difficulties doing it.

[supercurio]

14 minutes ago, Tel01 said:

I'm not sure if this is possible but could InMotion make a stress test through the software? So all a person would have to do is select the test in the menu and lift the wheel up and the test would run, 10 second or so at a time. I'm trying to think of a way to make it easier, since some people are having difficulties doing it.

A much tougher, longer and consistent stress test could run programmatically after being triggered manually from the wheel settings.

It would still remain tricky to keep the wheel in place above ground while the wheel uses all its torque to change rotation: it presents its own risks.
Imagine if when you hold it up it slips out of your hands, then keeps spinning back and forth, that could get destructive.
Still worth investigating.

There should be one program to run in factory at least, held on a test rig.

Edited January 14, 2022 by supercurio

[lirva]

Maybe some solution would be Inmotion to offer HT board at a fair price. I wouldn't mind to pay small  fee (100€ etc) to get "improved" safer board.

[Planemo]

8 hours ago, onizukagto said:

Let's be realistic, if this was true. When begode started exploding, none of the affected models should be selling right now. 

But did any of the dealers stop? 

I knew someone would throw up the Begode comparison. In my view its not the same situation.

1. The ratio of wheels failing is vastly different.

2. The actual cause of Begode fires has not been identified. All we know is it is something to do with the packs.

4. It is abundantly clear that the issue with the V12 is the board, and we even know that its pin pointed to the FET's.

3. Many of the Begode wheels have been fairly well used before issues occur. This makes proving the wheel is at fault hugely more difficult.

4. Inmotion themselves have made it very clear that they are aware of an issue.

5. The existence of the 'stress test', and the reccomendation by Inmotion that it be employed, reinforces the admission above.

6. It is widely known that the stress test does not provide conclusive data.

7. At the moment it appears that dealers are happy to sell a wheel that has passed the stress test.

Given all the above, if some poor sap buys a V12 and it fails the next day causing serious injury, I suspect a decent lawyer could take the dealers to the cleaners.

I'm no Begode fanboy, but Begodes failure to make any admission of a problem has actually done them a favour (a no comment interview if you like), compared to Inmotions honesty (which is admirable), but it's the dealers which are leaving themselves wide open if they continue to sell them post stress test IMO.

[monkeytacos]

For what it's worth, here's my attempt to reproduce the mosfet test (seems to have passed): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qqVO9TY9eA

Would like to know if you guys think this was done incorrectly. (I have been following this thread, and do understand the test may give a false sense of security)

 

Wheel Info: Batch 2, v1.5.0, 0km (brand new), 96% battery when test started

[supercurio]

34 minutes ago, monkeytacos said:

For what it's worth, here's my attempt to reproduce the mosfet test (seems to have passed): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qqVO9TY9eA

Would like to know if you guys think this was done incorrectly. (I have been following this thread, and do understand the test may give a false sense of security)

Flawless execution 👏
You must have been counting because you got to 10 exactly!

[RArtem]

2 hours ago, monkeytacos said:

Would like to know if you guys think this was done incorrectly.

Nope, this test isn't correct. But i think it's sufficient for 1 try. Repeat this at least 9 times more.

You shoul'd spin your wheel to maximum speed (80+ km/h on screen) then rapidly tilt it back with power at least 2 times to simulate hard braking on top speed. Then you shoul'd let wheel to turn off by maximum speed value. You should do this actions at least 10 times.

Also i don't recommed to do it on 90-100% charge level.

I've broke my on 50% charge level.

Edited January 14, 2022 by RArtem

[Cecily Inmotion]

22 hours ago, Shane Dougherty said:

Cecily;  Is Chicway aware that new boards should go out to affected customers. I'm not feeling like they're in the loop?

 

Hi we have already contacted with Chicway. 

[Unventor]

19 hours ago, supercurio said:

Agree wait out for solutions can be a fine strategy for yourself, if you feel detached enough from the topic.

Let me ask you tho, let's say you just got your V12, it passed the test Whohoo!! you get delivery of it. You're all excited.
Next day you learn that one of the wheels your dealer tested successfully next to yours, died on a small jump, uh-ho.

• What would do you do?
• What does waiting mean in this context: waiting for a replacement board to eventually ride your V12? Your MOSFETs didn't burn: you're not supposed to get one.

Second scenario. You must decide within a couple day if you take delivery of your V12, knowing it might not be safe to ride, or cancel your order. To get another one: wait for 6+ months and add 400-500€ to the initial pre-order price.

• What would do you do?
• What does waiting mean? Waiting is not an option here, a choice has to be made.

Note: that's my own situation right now.

 

Sure, waiting can works but waiting is passive, it works because others are active while you wait.
Ironically, if you're successful convincing everyone to wait, then there's no value in waiting anymore because the principle of delegating to others by delaying your own action disappears.

I have a V11 instead as an example. I cracked the rear light/speaker unit connection and also had a battery problem. 

In the wait for parts I borght a 2nd V11. Burned the drive board uring a tire change. My silly mistake. 

So I waited for battery first. Then 2 drive and main board and 1 motor. 

One board died on me after 500m. Got a new shipped (but it was badly protected so cooling block has damage). I do not yet know if the board works or not. But plan is to shift board to a old cooling block. 

So I have had long down time on wheels. 

On top of this I got news Inmotion had problems sourcing mosfets that is why it took so long to get replacement boards. 

All EUC have problems with spare part supply times. It is one reason to have multiple wheels. I chose 2 of same models for 2 reasons, can swap parts between them and their suspension. 

Components supply and covid and logistics makes it hard to get fast service. No matter if it is warranty or rider induced like mine (at first). This is the state of things and I deal with it. I might not be happy about it and surely like to buy and get parts/service as simple as buying a litre of milk. 

It does not help getting stressed out about it. Mainly because I cannot change or influence it to what I like it to be. This is just life and it is not fair. It just happens. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Unventor

[mhpr262]

Yeah I have two wheels and have been thinking about selling one. But one major defect like a dead control bard in the only wheel I have might mean six months without riding with the current availability of spare parts. No way am I going to risk that.

[.....]

35 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

Yeah I have two wheels and have been thinking about selling one. But one major defect like a dead control bard in the only wheel I have might mean six months without riding with the current availability of spare parts. No way am I going to risk that.

Once you become a rider, I couldnt fathom having just one. Even if just a little baby wheel. Like you mention, parts and availability isnt exactly a given. Gotta have a backup plan. Besides, you never know when the backup does good for loaner..

I had multiples of the same at one time. I gave up on that, because if you gonna have a spare, it may as well be another flavor. Essentially turning the 'spare' into another fun device as well. Having two mtens doenst count..

Edited January 14, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[Funky]

Or you could go to your "local" euc store and buy new one? No waiting..

That's what i did. Only thing i knew is that kingsong where the "safest.." So i went in and chose one.

(OFC i know some places don't have "local" euc stores.) <3

If i would buy another wheel, it for sure would not be the same model. That's boring..

For backup plan. I already got whole 2 sitting in my room corner.. They are named: Cube hill bikes. xD I'm alright for not riding some months, while i wait for spare parts.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Funky
Backup Plan.

[Tawpie]

I used to have just one. And it took a ton of rationalization to convince myself that it didn't meet and exceed my needs... what got me over the hump was being unable to take my wheel with me on vacation. There simply wasn't any choice but to have a new one delivered to my vacation spot, was there? Yeah, I agree.

As to why there's now a third in hand with a fourth on pre-order, back to rationalization land for me!

[Funky]

45 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I used to have just one. And it took a ton of rationalization to convince myself that it didn't meet and exceed my needs... what got me over the hump was being unable to take my wheel with me on vacation. There simply wasn't any choice but to have a new one delivered to my vacation spot, was there? Yeah, I agree.

As to why there's now a third in hand with a fourth on pre-order, back to rationalization land for me!

Some people are to addictive to riding.. 

But that's also on people personality. I for once am "introvert, loner".. I rarely leave home,(Mainly job) don't socialize at all. So i don't see point in my life, where i would spend again ~2000$ for second wheel.

Maybe in 5 years when there's something much, much better, like: Solid state batteries, or some king euc that is game changer. 

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Maybe in 5 years when there's something much, much better

Sadly, at the rate things are actually getting “better”, it might take that long!

1 hour ago, Funky said:

So i don't see point in my life, where i would spend again ~2000$ for second wheel.

Invest in a metal detector, help some folks find the stuff that was buried just before the war… I bet you could get finders fees! On an MTen, you could cover a fair bit of ground too.

Edited January 15, 2022 by Tawpie

[Unventor]

10 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Once you become a rider, I couldnt fathom having just one. Even if just a little baby wheel. Like you mention, parts and availability isnt exactly a given. Gotta have a backup plan. Besides, you never know when the backup does good for loaner..

Now I totally agree with you backup wheel is a must on you are EUC hooked. 

Now I have 2x V11 so the idea is I can inter change parts between the to hopefully get one working wheel all time. 

But I also have other wheels too. The V11 is by far my preferred wheel. But having a V10f and a KS18L means I use wheels to change the ride feel. This helps to overall get better skills for fast to adapt between wheel behaviour. 

It also help me to remind myself how much the suspension is helping me and not to push it too far. 

I understand not all have the money or space to have many wheels. On the other hand to sell a secondhand wheel I have looked at how much I could get and how much value it would have to me aka a spar ride options and what I have of different use cases between my models. 

Due to I just resigned my job at Canon this Friday my ride might change a lot in way of range. So now I am looking at the V13 as an option.

But with the V12 situation it seems it is all hands on deck to get that sorted out. It is not something that Inmotion is ignoring that much I can say with my inside connections (from more staff) at Inmotion. 

With all the debates and speculation going on it is clear that what people from Western world expect is not what is normal from the Asian side of how situation is handled. And I know that all too well having worked 14 years in a Japanese company. It can be super frustrating in the moment. But over the years I got to appreciate that things are not ignored they just want to make the best solution and while investigation is on going there is little point to comment on it as final solution can end up being very different than first thought were. 

Now since I am not with Canon anymore I now choose to open state why I had different view on what Inmotion is doing. So say I sugar coat things. But it comes down to having a dialog and culture understanding and having trust instead of mistrust to people that are trying their bests. I am not paid in any way from Inmotion. But I have used my contact to forward opinions from this forum collected both as moderator and later as a read and member of this community. 

It is also why I am super greatful to have Inmotion active here on this forum. @Cecily Inmotion. 

[Paul g]

I am selling my V12. If someone is interested, check my topic in Private Sales forum.

[Sympul]

17 hours ago, Unventor said:

Due to I just resigned my job at Canon this Friday my ride might change a lot in way of range. So now I am looking at the V13 as an option.

Good luck on the new job search, and with the v13 (when you get it) as well!

[Tawpie]

Just stumbled onto this, it appears to be the V12 assembly line at one point, with a closeup of the drive/main board at about 1:00 in. A while ago I expressed reservations about the design from a manufacturing engineering perspective, specifically the assembly order to ensure that the MOSFETs and their solder joints aren't subjected to stress when they're attached to the heatsink.

The video shows the MOSFETs being soldered to the PCB before mounting to the heatsink, and the resulting alignment of their heat tabs. Each tab is going to get screwed into a flat heatsink and to my eye, these aren't near flat enough for my comfort zone. Sure, some will be close enough, but the board in the video isn't a comforting example.

 

[Paul A]

Assembly order.

If that is the assembly order for all the other IM wheels, that might not explain the issue of why it is happening to the V12 though.

[supercurio]

31 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Just stumbled onto this, it appears to be the V12 assembly line at one point, with a closeup of the drive/main board at about 1:00 in. A while ago I expressed reservations about the design from a manufacturing engineering perspective, specifically the assembly order to ensure that the MOSFETs and their solder joints aren't subjected to stress when they're attached to the heatsink.

The video shows the MOSFETs being soldered to the PCB before mounting to the heatsink, and the resulting alignment of their heat tabs. Each tab is going to get screwed into a flat heatsink and to my eye, these aren't near flat enough for my comfort zone. Sure, some will be close enough, but the board in the video isn't a comforting example.

 

Ah yes this example illustrates your point very well.
I imagined before your description that the legs flexing to adjust the alignment might be sufficient.

Is the temperature cycling of the MOSFET affecting the solder joints significantly on top of the misalignment stress?

[Planemo]

Not defending Inmo, but personally I don't think the assembly method in question is a problem. I imagine it's similar on a lot of wheels. Not forgetting that many other components are only supported by their legs. I admit that theres more heat involved with FET's, but assuming decent solder is used I still don't see it being a problem. That said I refuse to use lead free solder as it flows like crap and isn't as nice as leaded when it comes to a trustworthy joint. But maybe Inmo have to use leaded by law? Maybe all manufacturers do? Either way we don't see too many FET leg soldering issues across any of the manufacturers.