Incredibly bad look for this community.

[Kai Drange]

When out riding, I'm very conscious of being a representative of a niche type of transportation that many might be sceptical to. Unfortunately, there are apparently other EUC owners in my area that are less considerate. I haven't met any of them yet, but people I meet keep telling stories about some reckless guys on high speed EUCs and how they hope the police catches them, etc. Clearly those guys are the first that springs to people's minds when they see me, as well. And, legislation etc. aside, that still sucks.

Anyways, a small anecdote that made me happy:

Yesterday, riding on my way to work, I met a sweet puppy with body language that showed she/he was very afraid of me. So I stopped and walked. The owner explained that the dog had never seen an EUC before, so I petted it and explained to it I wasn't dangerous (probably in an embarrassingly silly voice!). This morning I passed the dog again, but today it got real happy when it saw me coming.

I don't think humans are that different, just less explicit about it...

[Paul A]

Video of EUC crash while operating an RC car, from time mark 0:00

 

 

 

Video of ride with assortment of PEV's.

Time marks of interest:

0:20    2:30    7:50    13:45     28:10    28:42    33:10    34:35

 

 

An RC car hitting a bump, pothole, debris etc can spin and tumble out of control.

Riding with an RC amongst a group of riders is probably not advisable.

 

EUC riders wearing protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armour etc are implicitly acknowledging there will be accidents beyond their control, regardless of their skills and experience.  Yet some seem to think they are not endangering others with reckless behaviour, because they have skills and experience.

It seems that there are threats to them.  It seems they pose no threat to others.

 

[Paul A]

Concern for others: eg: Injury and death to pedestrians, general public.

Concern for self:  eg:  Prohibitive legislation/restrictions to PEV's

 

Not necessarily a dichotomy or mutually exclusive.

What issues are more important, take precedence.

What issues are less significant, are secondary.

Individuals will vary in attitudes, there being some balancing area, no extreme view at the total exclusion of all other interests.

 

Psychopaths are toward the self interest end of the spectrum.

Manners, politeness, respect, tact, are behaviours that are evidence of concern for others.

 

[Sumako]

5 hours ago, Paul A said:

EUC riders wearing protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armour etc are implicitly acknowledging there will be accidents beyond their control, regardless of their skills and experience.  Yet some seem to think they are not endangering others with reckless behaviour, because they have skills and experience.

It seems that there are threats to them.  It seems they pose no threat to others.

 

Are we really going to criticize EUC riders for wearing  protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armor? Are you serious right now?

When typing out “wearing protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armour etc are implicitly acknowledging there will be accidents beyond their control”, did that actually sound correct in your head? 

Associating proper protective gear with something negative Sounds just a bit off to me. 

Maybe I am not reading this correctly. I need more clarification. 

[RockyTop]

12 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Are we really going to criticize EUC riders for wearing  protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armor? Are you serious right now?

When typing out “wearing protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armour etc are implicitly acknowledging there will be accidents beyond their control”, did that actually sound correct in your head? 

Associating proper protective gear with something negative Sounds just a bit off to me. 

Maybe I am not reading this correctly. I need more clarification. 

That is not how I read that. ......
Actually? I constructively disagree with both of you. 

Of course there is danger. If I were placed in a situation where I was going to run into someone I would appreciate the extra gear when I jumped off the path and into a bad situation to avoid such a collision. ...... 

[RockyTop]

5 hours ago, Paul A said:

 

Psychopaths are toward the self interest end of the spectrum.

Manners, politeness, respect, tact, are behaviours that are evidence of concern for others.

Like it or not psychopaths are actually very common. We all likely know and respect one unknowingly. It is a medical condition that is not chosen by the affected person. Many are quite capable and provide much to their community. ( Some are extremely intelligent) ...... Others can be a problem but it is not a chosen path. (Sometimes actions need to be taken) 

P.S. I am not suggesting that anyone here is a psychopath. (And I am not one either ) 

[Paul A]

Hello RockyTop,

Hope you are well, thank you for your comment.

It is very pleasing and heartening to read your thoughts.

Yes, as we are the ones wearing the protective gear, we should not hesitate if needed, to take an impact, in order to protect the vulnerable public.

Thank you for your code of behaviour.

[winterwheel]

I saw some anti-rental comments above. I'd just like to insert, as a person who does a little business on the side renting out euc's, that I am totally in favor of euc rentals. 

This has been a significant factor in getting EUC adoption rates up around here, as it allows riders to try out a wheel for a few days and see if it is going to work for them before they have to plunk down a few grand of commitment. 

[RockyTop]

8 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I'd just like to insert, as a person who does a little business on the side renting out euc's, that I am totally in favor of euc rentals.

I think that is awesome, ... What wheels do you rent out?  

[winterwheel]

I'll rent out pretty much any of my wheels except the RS, I have only one of those and it is my towing wheel; even the EX is available as I have two. That said, my main rental items come from my stock of 5 MTen3, 3 Tesla2, 3 14d, 2 16S, as well as the S-18 because it is quite popular and which I don't use because I don't trust it to carry me the way I ride.

[RockyTop]

7 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I'll rent out pretty much any of my wheels except the RS, I have only one of those and it is my towing wheel; even the EX is available as I have two. That said, my main rental items come from my stock of 5 MTen3, 3 Tesla2, 3 14d, 2 16S, as well as the S-18 because it is quite popular and which I don't use because I don't trust it to carry me the way I ride.

I take it that things have worked out well over all. That is good to hear. I would have been too concerned about getting back damaged wheels. Although I would not be concerned about the 16s. Mine has caused more damage than it has received. It got wedged under a car and ended up ripping the bumper cover off the car. No damage to the 16s. 

[winterwheel]

Not to sidetrack things but yeah, the KS wheels are definitely tougher than the Gotway wheels. Bits of the Teslas are always falling off; while they go back together quite easily I'll likely sell those off and go with all KS for 16" wheels next year. I try to guess what will break on the wheels and buy the parts that will be needed to fix them up over the winter. Cosmetic damage I don't care about, in fact I inflict some intentionally so renters will not be so inclined to try to grab and save the wheel in an unplanned-dismount situation. "Save yourself not the wheel" is a mantra I really try to reinforce.

[RockyTop]

25 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

Not to sidetrack things

True, this would fall under incredibly good look for the community. 

[Sumako]

8 hours ago, RockyTop said:

That is not how I read that. ......
Actually? I constructively disagree with both of you. 

Of course there is danger. If I were placed in a situation where I was going to run into someone I would appreciate the extra gear when I jumped off the path and into a bad situation to avoid such a collision. ...... 

@RockyTop - If you saw it differently, I’ll take it. It was this sentence; “EUC riders wearing protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armour etc are implicitly acknowledging there will be accidents beyond their control, regardless of their skills...” that completely threw me off. 

Being on an EUC, armor up. Get your helmet on. Get you gloves on. I’m a huge advocate on all of this. EUC is the most dangerous EV to ride. Super dangerous to any rider. Let’s be honest here. We are daredevils.

[Sumako]

14 hours ago, Paul A said:

Video of EUC crash while operating an RC car, from time mark 0:00

 

 

 

Video of ride with assortment of PEV's.

Time marks of interest:

0:20    2:30    7:50    13:45     28:10    28:42    33:10    34:35

 

 

An RC car hitting a bump, pothole, debris etc can spin and tumble out of control.

Riding with an RC amongst a group of riders is probably not advisable.

 

EUC riders wearing protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armour etc are implicitly acknowledging there will be accidents beyond their control, regardless of their skills and experience.  Yet some seem to think they are not endangering others with reckless behaviour, because they have skills and experience.

It seems that there are threats to them.  It seems they pose no threat to others.

 

@Paul A- I apologize for giving you shit over your post. I really don’t understand your sentence where it appeared you were criticizing EUC riders for armoring up. Mind explaining a little more? Thanks!

Edited July 9, 2021 by Sumako

[Sumako]

4 hours ago, winterwheel said:

I saw some anti-rental comments above. I'd just like to insert, as a person who does a little business on the side renting out euc's, that I am totally in favor of euc rentals. 

This has been a significant factor in getting EUC adoption rates up around here, as it allows riders to try out a wheel for a few days and see if it is going to work for them before they have to plunk down a few grand of commitment. 

Ah HA!!!! You got me. Anti-rental comments? Yes that would be me. I am loudest voice here against the corporate PEV rental industry. 

Winterwheel what you have going on is COMPLETELY different then what I am talking about. If only Lime and Bird would follow your path and have a brick mortar shop that trains and sets up riders to ride there ekick scooters. But that is not what is happening. PEV rentals like Lime and Bird need to be kicked out of every city. This “try not learn” model is a disaster to our community. At least it wont end our EUCs but still these “ride it and leave it” companies are really a bad look for us. 

Your’re doing it right!

Anytime you (or other responsible EUC leasers) see me bitching about PEV Rental industry, just know I am not talking about you. AT ALL!

[GoGeorgeGo]

43 minutes ago, Sumako said:

Ah HA!!!! You got me. Anti-rental comments? Yes that would be me. I am loudest voice here against the corporate PEV rental industry. 

Winterwheel what you have going on is COMPLETELY different then what I am talking about. If only Lime and Bird would follow your path and have a brick mortar shop that trains and sets up riders to ride there ekick scooters. But that is not what is happening. PEV rentals like Lime and Bird need to be kicked out of every city. This “try not learn” model is a disaster to our community. At least it wont end our EUCs but still these “ride it and leave it” companies are really a bad look for us. 

Your’re doing it right!

Anytime you (or other responsible EUC leasers) see me bitching about PEV Rental industry, just know I am not talking about you. AT ALL!

The ride it and leave it PEVs are an absolute pest. I 100% agree there. They just clutter the city and cause more problems than they generate solutions (or revenue, which is the real bottom dollar).

Because you rent it, there is no pride of ownership. There is no investment in safety gear. You would obviously never see a real PEV rider leave their vehicle in the road. Hell you wouldn't see any motorist leave a vehicle in the road. Can you even imagine the carnage if cars where treated in the same vein as rental scooters? Just left dead in the middle of the highway?

I would love to see the death of the ride it and leave it model. It would be so simple to setup charging kiosks around the city and fine renters 30$ for not returning the machine to a kiosk. I think that would be in every citys best interest to legislate. Maybe fine the companies 20$ for every scooter abandoned around the city. Would be a nice little pay day for the city to roam around collecting scooters and levying fines.

 

Edit to add: actually gives me a good idea. Major citys could establish rental hubs throughout the city. Not needing to be setup by individual brands but instead paid for and maintained by the taxes coming from the rentals. Any company renting vehicles could use the same "kiosk" area for charging and pickup/drop off of rental vehicles and the charging of private vehicles. For citys that want to embrace PEV transportation this would be a good step forward. Clean up the rental refuse, and stop some private riders from poaching electricity all over the city. Be a good spot for food vendors and beer carts to setup shop to 

Edited July 9, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[Paulo Mesquita]

9 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Like it or not psychopaths are actually very common. We all likely know and respect one unknowingly. It is a medical condition that is not chosen by the affected person. Many are quite capable and provide much to their community. ( Some are extremely intelligent) ...... Others can be a problem but it is not a chosen path. (Sometimes actions need to be taken) 

P.S. I am not suggesting that anyone here is a psychopath. (And I am not one either ) 

Damn, you finally caught up with me!!! 🤪🤪🤪🤪🤪

[Paulo Mesquita]

4 hours ago, winterwheel said:

I saw some anti-rental comments above. I'd just like to insert, as a person who does a little business on the side renting out euc's, that I am totally in favor of euc rentals. 

This has been a significant factor in getting EUC adoption rates up around here, as it allows riders to try out a wheel for a few days and see if it is going to work for them before they have to plunk down a few grand of commitment. 

@winterwheel I think there's a clear distinction between EUC rentals and e-scooters or e-bikes.

A - any idiot picks up a rental e-scooter or e-bike and speeds away, feeling he knows what he's doing and not really afraid of getting hurt. This is due to their muscle memory and previous experience being extremely familiar the locomotion method of classical scooters and bikes. Big mistake... 

B - a person who rents an EUC has a totally different mental attitude. First they immediately find out how hard it is. Second they easily get hurt a bit in the first hours. And in third place, the rapidly associate that difficulty to a sense of their noisy vulnerability. 

So, in short, one can't mix EUC rentals with e-scooters or e-bikes rentals. There is a world of difference in the leaning curve of either and a rental EUC learner quickly finds out that he has to be very responsable, at least for his own safety. 

I, for one, have never put them in the same pot 😊😊😊

[Paulo Mesquita]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

@RockyTop - If you saw it differently, I’ll take it. It was this sentence; “EUC riders wearing protective gear of helmets, jackets, body armour etc are implicitly acknowledging there will be accidents beyond their control, regardless of their skills...” that completely threw me off. 

Being on an EUC, armor up. Get your helmet on. Get you gloves on. I’m a huge advocate on all of this. EUC is the most dangerous EV to ride. Super dangerous to any rider. Let’s be honest here. We are daredevils.

@Sumako... tell me about it!!! I wear 6kgs of very God  protective gear and everything's I fall (never over 15km/hour) I bleed and bruise.

Every time I go out riding my wife says " don't get killed" 🙄🙄🙄

And I'm an old fart, 61 years old. Anything I break will never get fixed again 😬😬😬. 

But it's so much fun!!!! 🤪🤪🤪🤪

Edited July 9, 2021 by Paulo Mesquita

[Skeptikos]

I think this discussion would be more productive if it was split into its individual points of disagreement.

• How much danger do EUCs, when ridden recklessly, pose to pedestrians? (I'd guess more than bicycles but less than e-scooters.)
• How should EUC riders treat other riders who they think are hooligans? (Courteously IMO.)
• What kind of events would lead to EUC bans in the US? (Given the small number of EUCs, I think it'd have to be something very extreme.)
• Should the concerns of EUC commuters be prioritized over those of thrill-seekers? (No IMO.)
• ... etc. ...

After 31 pages, even if this thread eventually does reach a conclusion, I don't think anyone will have the time to read it.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Skeptikos
grammar

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Sumako said:

I really don’t understand your sentence where it appeared you were criticizing EUC riders for armoring up.

Until he does, I can explain how I read it. I read no critique in the sentence either. To me it was only stating the fact that EUC rider’s gear up because they acknowledge that there is a risk of crashing despite rider skill and experience. To me it is just describing why we do gear up.

15 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

I think this discussion would be more productive if it's split into its individual points of disagreement.

Absolutely. I think it has been clear a few dozen pages ago already that this thread will definitely not reach any kind of conclusion.

 Whoever wishes to start new topics on the mentioned individual points (or any other) are free and encouraged to do so. Moderatively splitting and organizing the existing posts of this thread would do more harm than good, and for a wildly incoherent thread like this it would also be an extremely laborious thing to do.

Edited July 9, 2021 by mrelwood

[mike_bike_kite]

6 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

I think ...

My current gear: kit.co

You're a thrill seeker on a v8? Looking at your extensive kit list you seem to want full protection for yourself but you seem to approve of riders on powerful wheels riding at speed through the middle of defenceless pedestrians on a crossing. Or did I read your post wrong?

 

[Skeptikos]

@mike_bike_kite Yes, you read my post wrong.

[Paulo Mesquita]

12 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

I think this discussion would be more productive if it was split into its individual points of disagreement.

• How much danger do EUCs, when ridden recklessly, pose to pedestrians? (I'd guess more than bicycles but less than e-scooters.)
• How should EUC riders treat other riders who they think are hooligans? (Courteously IMO.)
• What kind of events would lead to EUC bans in the US? (Given the small number of EUCs, I think it'd have to be something very extreme.)
• Should the concerns of EUC commuters be prioritized over those of thrill-seekers? (No IMO.)
• ... etc. ...

After 31 pages, even if this thread eventually does reach a conclusion, I don't think anyone will have the time to read it.

@Skeptikos good points! 👍 However I believe the final goal of this thread is not to close on a conclusion, but to be eternally open to debate of ideas, suggestions, alerts etc. I believe this thread Is the most valuable thread to the evolution of the self awareness of our community all over the world. Our ideas and behaviors are evolving all the time on this debate and it has clearly enrichened the insights of many of us. At least that has happened to me. I've learned from all opinions. Even from the ones that are culturally far away from mine. And I'm sure we are all learning from each other. 

This thread is making EUC history, have no doubt, my friend 😊