Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[I_Must_Bust]

14 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Are you sure though? Do you know someone with a Sherman you can try carrying (similar experience)? It's different from carrying a wheel with one arm because you have two handles and you also use your leg as leverage so it's not so very bad.

Pretty sure, unfortunately. The step height of my stairs is quite high so I would need to be able to lift the wheel with significantly bent arms. I would also like a free hand to carry other items. I think that 60lbs is the max until I move to a new apt

[Rollin-on-1]

19 minutes ago, I_Must_Bust said:

Is that the resolute version or do all eWheels' RS wheels have safer batteries?

No Resolute is different. eWheels orders the Begode wheels without batteries and has Litech make custom packs for them.  Email eWheels to get more details.

[Funky]

49 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Ah yes on older wheels there's also voices for speed alarms + beeps for torque / acceleration alarms.

Here's a crazy question now.. Kinda scary one.

Now i don't know.. If i got "voices" enabled, meaning i don't hear any beeps at speed warnings..

 Do i get them at over torque / acceleration? Maybe those are also "off" then? <<< Asking that, because if they aren't working, i don't have any warning for those then.

I'm not a crazy driver, so i maybe never experience them.. Would be peace of mind, if i knew they work 100%. With voices on/off

Edited February 19, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, Funky said:

Do i get them at over torque / acceleration?

On both my 16x and S18 the overtorque alarm does not come from the regular beeper... it's a much lower frequency 'boop boop boop' and I don't know where it comes from.

Before I turned off the voices, it seemed like "please decelerate" kicked in at alarm 1 and just kept yelling. I didn't go faster and faster into the higher alarms but it'd be a simple experiment to set alarm 1 to something like 15 kph, alarm 2 to 20 kph and alarm 3 to 25 kph and see what happens. Or set them way slower (I did that with tiltback so I could experience it without getting freaked out).

But experiments conducted on anything other than an S20 with production firmware should clearly be taken as 'inconclusive' at best...

[Funky]

10 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

On both my 16x and S18 the overtorque alarm does not come from the regular beeper... it's a much lower frequency 'boop boop boop' and I don't know where it comes from.

Before I turned off the voices, it seemed like "please decelerate" kicked in at alarm 1 and just kept yelling. I didn't go faster and faster into the higher alarms but it'd be a simple experiment to set alarm 1 to something like 15 kph, alarm 2 to 20 kph and alarm 3 to 25 kph and see what happens. Or set them way slower (I did that with tiltback so I could experience it without getting freaked out).

But experiments conducted on anything other than an S20 with production firmware should clearly be taken as 'inconclusive' at best...

I did that.. That's how i found out that 1/2 alarm don't work when "Voices" are enabled.. It said "Please Decelerate" only at 3rd alarm. 1/2 where completely ignored. (I had them enabled btw..) at 10 speed nothing and 15 speed nothing at 20/3rd alarm "Please Decelerate" Did same at 15/25/35 speed only 3rd worked with voices.

Beeps worked on all alarms 1/2/3..

That's why im kinda scared now.. If i got voice enabled. Maybe i don't get those torque / acceleration alarms also?

If it's completely different alarms then yeah.. It should work..

You had that 'boop boop boop' coming with "voices" enabled?

Edited February 19, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

it's probably time to remove this anti-feature altogether, and keep only the "Max speed alarm" setting.

I set all my alarms very close to the "fastest I want to catch myself going" (25 mph, 26 and 26, tiltback at 27) but when I was learning I had them set quite a bit lower and I noticed something really interesting. When I'm on the bike path and beeping (single beeps), people seemed to look up as I approached from behind. I haven't found an AVAS sound that'll do that (yet, still seeking). If it wasn't so irritating, I might entertain single beeping when I'm around people—the rhythmic beep seems to grab people's attention for some reason. But constant beeping gets annoying and it's not very easy to turn off. Maybe I need a beeper sound for AVAS, I use a flic button to turn that off and on.

[Tawpie]

17 minutes ago, Funky said:

You had that 'boop boop boop' coming with "voices" enabled?

voices disabled. I'll see if I still have the video—I could trigger over-something when the S18 was badly calibrated and I was bouncing up and down. I got the boop-boop-boop on the 16x when I hit a pothole in the road and was going 'quite quickly'.

EDIT: (no video, I trashed it some time ago... sorry)

Edited February 19, 2022 by Tawpie
don't have video

[Funky]

Just now, Tawpie said:

voices disabled. I'll see if I still have the video—I could trigger over-something when the S18 was badly calibrated and I was bouncing up and down. I got the boop-boop-boop on the 16x when I hit a pothole in the road and was going 'quite quickly'.

That's the thing.. (Voices disabled) Maybe if they are enabled. There's some kind of "glitch" and also disables those "boop, boop" warnings, same as 1/2 speed alarm.

Is there any easy test for torque / acceleration? Speedy start i see as one.. Torque hill climbing? Should be easy test for 280lbs ridder. xD

[Rollin-on-1]

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I'll make an approximate guess.... He looks like a stumpy 155lbs to me.

I think he is 190.  Check the comments in his S20 review...he mentions it there I believe.

[Grimm10]

1 hour ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

I think he is 190.  Check the comments in his S20 review...he mentions it there I believe.

What a lightweight. 😁 

[Jon Stern]

39 minutes ago, Grimm10 said:

What a lightweight. 😁 

That's really heavy in my book!

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

On 2/12/2022 at 1:35 AM, Rawnei said:

@Planemo de ja vu 🤣

@Jack ex-KS any input here? Still have influence over at KS? 😁 are the screws stainless steel? Could we get more water protection on the motor cable cover (some sort of sealing?), more robust power switch, more robust bumper (outer Rubber/TPU?) and more robust headlights? 😉

Would be a shame if easily fixable things like that would drag and otherwise robust looking wheel down.

The main cable will have a waterproof glue underneath, i havent seen my stuff rust yet and its been a couple of days after water tests. 

the power switch is not an issue, you dont need to worry about it. 

no TPU bumper, improved bumper in my indepth review 

headlights.. no changes. 

 

I do not necessarily, i reflect my concerns continuously but i was always only part of a team 

[Paul A]

Shaquille O'Neall, 216 cm (7'1''), 147 kg (324lbs)

Would be interesting to see Shaq riding an Mten3.

 

[Forwardnbak]

1 hour ago, Jack ex-KS said:

I do not necessarily, i reflect my concerns continuously but i was always only part of a team 

I think you showed me some of the best info on this wheel and your posts were a large reason I put a deposit on my first Kingsong. 
thanks Jack. Great work on this to you and the team, I think. 
 

Ps - Kingsong - Please offer a ROYALE mode - 85kph after 5 taps on the king logo of the app. 

[Freeforester]

23 hours ago, Miko.cz said:

In a few days I will have prototype KS-S20 for few minutes too (hurray! ). Any other additional questions there that I could try to check?

Perhaps try to make an objective assessment of the various points below:

1) kickstand fragility/functionality -might it not be just as well to have a couple of studs (Begode like) instead of an easily broken bit of plastic?

Here below are some other aspects to perhaps check out in the flesh, I might have the wheel all wrong:

As you may gather, I’m in the market for an off-road capable wheel, suspension type most probably, but am still looking for something a little better designed, and made from materials which are considerably more robust than merely some that make a Begode shell look robust… YMMV

[The Brahan Seer]

11 hours ago, supercurio said:

With how fast the S20 goes, it's probably time to remove this anti-feature altogether, and keep only the "Max speed alarm" setting.

I agree that at 30mph it would be hard to hear but I really like having the different beep indications on my S18, I have first at 15mph, 2nd at 20mph, 3rd at 25mph and tiltback at 27mph.

This enables me to know how fast I am going very easily. I don't bring my smartphone and wouldn't get distracted looking at a screen if it had one..

Edited February 19, 2022 by The Brahan Seer
To clarify the beeps for each indicator has a different pattern.

[The Brahan Seer]

2 hours ago, Freeforester said:

Here below are some other aspects to perhaps check out in the flesh, I might have the wheel all wrong:

I understand your concern but from experience with the S18, Rear kickstand will be fixed easily in production (they had a similar problem with the initial S18 that was rectified), lights and bumper being unfit for purpose is being a little disingenuous. Just look at any motorcycle and they are very fragile too. The seat will be made thicker to address the flimsiness, the sidepads and boomerang are a weak point but options are available to remedy it (not one stock power pad by anyone is any good so it seems).

From the S18 the issues of the charger port or switch location is a non issue. I looked under my S18 today and its never had water ingress there totally clean and dry (1945miles 3-6 times a week since April come Wind, Rain, Hail, Snow, or Shine. Plus I shower the wheel in winter like in Koji videos to remove the salt). 

Display screen; have a look at the top of your wheels and see how much scratching you get. A screen protector is a very easy addition if required.

Maybe the protrusion of the shock is something to watch I agree and the rear latch isn't the best design. Stronger magnet with fix and familiarity will likely make it a non issue too.

Blue tones is an issue and I'm sure they will fix this in software. As you say the suspension is supposed to be great and very sturdy, it does look good and has what everyone was saying is lacking in the S18.  I think the wheel is more robust than you think.  Using clear mountain bike frame protector tape on the metal areas that are concerns is a good idea and will protect from scratches without spoiling the look of the wheel. It looks like my mileage does vary but maybe with the solutions above it does fit your expectations after all. I hope so. 

[stephen]

12 hours ago, pkinpdx said:

He had two things wrong with his range test.  He was only charged to 93% when he started and his update wasn't from soft tuner so the BMS didn't get updated.  Until those things are fixed I would discount his results.  RevRides got about 60 miles riding fairly aggressively (mid 30's) from two different riders.

Here's speedyfeet bms stats

 

https://flic.kr/p/2n4smAh

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by stephen

[supercurio]

@Funky @The Brahan Seer @Tawpie

Do you think that it would be useful to have a mechanism which allows to tell at which speed you are riding asides from telling your max speed?

Example use cases:

• respecting legal speed limits: fairly difficult when you don't know what speed you're riding at to begin with
• matching self-imposed speed target: like if you must to ride on a sidewalk or shared pedestrian/bike path
• maximizing range: planned a 100km route and want to optimize for energy efficiency to make it.

These are all good reasons to be "alerted" that you reached your speed target, which might not be the maximum speed.
However if the mechanism for speed indication is the same as the safety mechanism, it'll increase the rider's reaction time and increase the chance it's not even noticed.

How to communicate the speed information best without conflicting with the safety alerts is TBD tho.
I'm guessing using a different medium might be something to explore, like light, or haptics or voice for info and strong beeps not masked by wind noise for alerts, but that needs work.

In the meantime and after hearing the detailed description  about this last S20 cutout and crash, I'm fairly confident the confusing alarms beeps setup was the main cause: essentially:

• Rider heard beeps riding beyond speed 1 and speed 2
• Rider heard beeps for torque/acceleration alert
• Rider was not able to hear and process the alert in time and crashed.

Could be avoided IMO.

[Freeforester]

2 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I understand your concern but from experience with the S18, Rear kickstand will be fixed easily in production (they had a similar problem with the initial S18 that was rectified), lights and bumper being unfit for purpose is being a little disingenuous. Just look at any motorcycle and they are very fragile too. The seat will be made thicker to address the flimsiness, the sidepads and boomerang are a weak point but options are available to remedy it (not one stock power pad by anyone is any good so it seems).

From the S18 the issues of the charger port or switch location is a non issue. I looked under my S18 today and its never had water ingress there totally clean and dry (1945miles 3-6 times a week since April come Wind, Rain, Hail, Snow, or Shine. Plus I shower the wheel in winter like in Koji videos to remove the salt). 

Display screen; have a look at the top of your wheels and see how much scratching you get. A screen protector is a very easy addition if required.

Maybe the protrusion of the shock is something to watch I agree and the rear latch isn't the best design. Stronger magnet with fix and familiarity will likely make it a non issue too.

Blue tones is an issue and I'm sure they will fix this in software. As you say the suspension is supposed to be great and very sturdy, it does look good and has what everyone was saying is lacking in the S18.  I think the wheel is more robust than you think.  Using clear mountain bike frame protector tape on the metal areas that are concerns is a good idea and will protect from scratches without spoiling the look of the wheel. It looks like my mileage does vary but maybe with the solutions above it does fit your expectations after all. I hope so. 

Thanks for the mitigations, some of which I can accept/agree with. To make it clear, I would say the light output looks perfectly adequate, but I have reservations about their longevity in a real life off road riding situation. Were the Hero’s lights adequate (they aren’t), then the form factor would have been a better design, ie inset back to the housing, making them less likely to be knocked off or otherwise broken. I guess real life experiences will vary between riders of different abilities and bravado too, but I feel there might have been a bit of room above the mudguard but below and behind the bumper where the light and control switches might have found a home, if damage limitation potential was a consideration in the design brief - I suspect not, but am willing to see how the real life experiences of others pan out in the meantime, I’m in no rush to spend so much on something I feel yet to be convinced about.

 

An interesting psy-exercise would’ve been to declare that a charge would be made to everyone testing, of say $100 dollars, with $90 being returnable upon the wheel not being returned 15 minutes later dropped or broken, but forfeit upon any damage done; I’m of course aware that this could obviously skew the feedback away from the more radical ‘tests’ as well as potentially limiting  test uptake, and perhaps too there might have been less damage done in the interim; it could have been arranged that any radical testing be done on the last leg of the tour too, of course. I think it would have been interesting to determine both the attitudes of test pilots to this, irrespective of whether you in fact gave them back all the deposit at the end or not regardless of the return condition, quite apart from seeing what state the wheels were returned in - maybe no difference, maybe a lot - who knows? In any event, I am pretty sure they were given by KS as potential ‘wreckers’ or on the understanding that damage was ‘likely to be significant’ during such beta testing. It’s probably far cheaper for them (indeed any manufacturer) to write a couple units off in such a manner than to subject them to any form of structured, industry-agreed testing standard (as Adam timely suggests), and irrespective of our personal views, the insights gained all-round can only help design considerations further along, which is in part why I make the somewhat critical observations I have.

I like what I see and hear about the tyre, and the rim seems robust; I’ll leave the more technical aspects of the new wheels’ performance and range for those better able to comment on what is there to celebrate, but these matters are certainly less readily determined by the appearances which I’ve confined my own personal observations/criticisms to.

Edited February 19, 2022 by Freeforester

[Funky]

51 minutes ago, supercurio said:

@Funky @The Brahan Seer @Tawpie

Do you think that it would be useful to have a mechanism which allows to tell at which speed you are riding asides from telling your max speed?

Example use cases:

• respecting legal speed limits: fairly difficult when you don't know what speed you're riding at to begin with
• matching self-imposed speed target: like if you must to ride on a sidewalk or shared pedestrian/bike path
• maximizing range: planned a 100km route and want to optimize for energy efficiency to make it.

These are all good reasons to be "alerted" that you reached your speed target, which might not be the maximum speed.
However if the mechanism for speed indication is the same as the safety mechanism, it'll increase the rider's reaction time and increase the chance it's not even noticed.

How to communicate the speed information best without conflicting with the safety alerts is TBD tho.
I'm guessing using a different medium might be something to explore, like light, or haptics or voice for info and strong beeps not masked by wind noise for alerts, but that needs work.

In the meantime and after hearing the detailed description  about this last S20 cutout and crash, I'm fairly confident the confusing alarms beeps setup was the main cause: essentially:

• Rider heard beeps riding beyond speed 1 and speed 2
• Rider heard beeps for torque/acceleration alert
• Rider was not able to hear and process the alert in time and crashed.

Could be avoided IMO.

If i wanted to obey speed limit. That would be ~25kph (~15mph).

Setting up beeps 1/2/3 "alarms" also are kinda meh.. Because when you pass the first alarm the wheel starts to "Beep" and that's annoying..

I'm good at ~35kph (~22mph) The voice is heard a lot more louder than beeps. As i rarely go at that speed. I rarely hear him say "Please Decelerate". But when i do hear him, i simply slow down. Also he doesn't say it once, he repeats it till i slow down. Same as beeps.

Simple led screen on all wheels would be amazing. As you could simply look down for sec and see your speed. No need any sounds, etc.. Those can be set as extreme warnings. Like riding to fast.

[yoos]

58 minutes ago, Funky said:

Simple led screen on all wheels would be amazing. As you could simply look down for sec and see your speed. No need any sounds, etc.. Those can be set as extreme warnings. Like riding to fast.

An important indicator could be LED color. It takes attention and effort to read a number from a small screen between you legs (especially when you lean against air drag when riding at speed). It is much easier to use peripheral vision to notice the light changed from white to flashing green. You can just have a very forward positioned LED indicator for this (a single LED or a small set that you could program extensively). However most light-based warnings will fail on a sunny day, and a full-face helmet further limits the view of the EUC. 

Haptic feedback might work (let's put those unintended EUC oscillations to good use!). However, it should be designed not to reduce traction with the pedals, which might be complicated.

Perhaps it's best to use external devices (e.g. phones or dedicated buzzers) and focus on making a reliable connection with the wheel with high-enough frequency braodcast. When I have my phone in the chest pocket, it's vibrations are well-felt.

Edited February 19, 2022 by yoos

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Do you think that it would be useful to have a mechanism which allows to tell at which speed you are riding asides from telling your max speed?

Thats an interesting question. 0-25mph like a push bike I'm not so worried. I never used a speedo on a pushbike or felt the need for one. I don't care for voice notifications. Does the S18 have them anyway I'm not sure? I liked the audio beep at 15mph as it gives indication to other pedestrians but like @Funky alluded to this can/could be annoying at lower speeds continuously. So yes a visual or haptic feedback would be a good idea.  Could this be implemented using software in apps? for haptic watches or belts?  I think over 25mph and the need to know your speed is more important and so the current displays are a good idea (plus required to adhere to construction codes in due course if that is required).  

[Funky]

1 hour ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Thats an interesting question. 0-25mph like a push bike I'm not so worried. I never used a speedo on a pushbike or felt the need for one. I don't care for voice notifications. Does the S18 have them anyway I'm not sure? I liked the audio beep at 15mph as it gives indication to other pedestrians but like @Funky alluded to this can/could be annoying at lower speeds continuously. So yes a visual or haptic feedback would be a good idea.  Could this be implemented using software in apps? for haptic watches or belts?  I think over 25mph and the need to know your speed is more important and so the current displays are a good idea (plus required to adhere to construction codes in due course if that is required).  

Bluetooth, small 3 led light device in helmet. Same as 1/2/3 alarms but with lights. As you past the speed alarms, the led lights up. xD

[lazybones99]

Why stop there? Augmented Reality goggles/helmet shield with indicators, current speed and battery level. We are living in the future  

Edited February 19, 2022 by lazybones99
Typo