Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[DragonFZ]

On 4/15/2022 at 11:22 PM, DragonFZ said:

Sorry if this question have already been addressed. From a stand still start, how does the S20/22 compare to the V11?

Thank you all for responding to my question.

I need to clarify where I am coming from. My current everyday wheel is the Sherman. I upgraded to the Sherman because I was getting left behind on my KS16X with all the Shermans and V11s in the group ride. I had the S20 on pre-order. Cancel it due to the first 10 meter limit on torque. I moved my pre-order to Master. I have watched several reviews on the S20 and re-evaluating my judgment for the S20. Does the S20 with start torque limit have more torque than a V11?  I know what a V11 can do and think it has a respectable torque. I don't want a new wheel that has less torque.   Thank you.

Edited April 19, 2022 by DragonFZ

[Tawpie]

13 minutes ago, DragonFZ said:

Does the S20 with start torque limit have more torque than a V11?

I do not know, but if keeping up is the concern, and not "first through the intersection", there were early reports of a RevRides demo S20 on original demo firmware that "was faster" than an EXN... EXN beat it off the line but S20 caught up and "was faster". What ever that meant. I doubt anyone would bother to drag race a V11 against an EXN, it's not what the V11 is made for!

My guess? Eagle will easily keep up with a V11. Including off the line.

(if you find yourself losing the drag race and you absolutely MUST win, you can always engage the one-time rocket assist mode ... V11 seems to lack that)

Edited April 19, 2022 by Tawpie

[Tawpie]

RevRides (US) will be receiving "a small batch" of consumer Eagles in port mid May. (rumor, but with screenshot!)

I wonder if they reallocated eWheel's share of M50Ts...

Edited April 20, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

Was it reasonable that the S22 control board failed in the Ustride repeated, rapid succession, hard torque riding?

[techyiam]

6 hours ago, Tawpie said:

RevRides (US) will be receiving "a small batch" of consumer Eagles in port mid May. (rumor, but with screenshot!)

I wonder if they reallocated eWheel's share of M50Ts...

Duf said he has communications with eWheels that Kingsong has agree to swap out the LG M50LT with Samsung cells for eWheels and other dealers. In addition, he said that he was told that the new packs should arrive some time in May. But he still not sure when he will actually receive his S22.

So, it may be possible that RevRides is receiving the small batch directly from Kingsong also.

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by techyiam

[Robse]

8 hours ago, Freeforester said:

Just saw this on YT:

? the point dont get i do    

[Rawnei]

56 minutes ago, Robse said:

? the point dont get i do    

I think the point was to show that you can configure the wheel differently and adopt it to your riding style.

[PourUC]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:54 PM, Wolverine said:

I did not write that it could not be adjusted at all. Please read this text once more and you will understand it better. I wrote that it is possible to adjust the suspension of the Inmotion V11 very thoroughly and find a best solution that suits for rider. You can have a suspension pump with you, and you can change suspension behavior when for example you change the terrain or the way you ride. It's the kind of thing you don't do with the S20 / S22 because you don't have that much room to play with the suspension. As you said yourself, you can replace the S20 / S22 parts and build the suspension yourself as the rider wants. With the V11, you don't have to replace anything to get the suspension exactly the way you want it, because fully adjustable suspension is already built in.

Disassembly and adjustment of the suspension is nothing new for the owners of the Kingsong suspension wheels, a large part of the owners of the S18 had to do it. Same goes with the S20 / S22.

This still is counter to reality though.

Both the S22/S18 suspensions offer fine control and tuning. The S22 however, due to having a shock has less fine tuning.

The V11 isn't some pinnacle of fine tuning though. It has no rebound adjustment. Just a positive and negative chamber. There is no rebound time adjustment what so ever which is a key component when it comes to taking a wheel off-road. 

The S22 does have rebound adjustment. So that is a bit of tuning that the S22 has that the V11 doesn't.

My point is to say, it's not accurate to describe the V11 suspenion as fine tunable to the riders every need and the S22 as unadaptive. If anything... people weight doesn't change that much or often, so changing the damping based on what you expect to do (jump, bumps, stairs, etc) is arguably more useful than changing the 'effective preload' with the air chambers.

Now I am not bashing on the V11, but it seems that was your aim against Kingsong by making it seem like the V11 suspension was the pinnacle in fine tuning.

Edited April 20, 2022 by PourUC
Contents was duplicated twice (page looked frozen when i tried to submit, so I clicked twice more)

[meepmeepmayer]

10 hours ago, Paul A said:

Was it reasonable that the S22 control board failed in the Ustride repeated, rapid succession, hard torque riding?

No. In terms of stress, this is nothing and should be absolutely normal. Just a little bit of braking and accelerating. Very reasonable usage for any wheel.

[Paul A]

Ok.  Test needs to be repeated on final release S22s to verify KS has implemented fix.

[FunTech4Real]

On 4/18/2022 at 3:03 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Yes. 
It is: discharge energy until 3.2V.
A nice summary is below.

For 3A/cell (a moderate, ~1200w discharge rate), the LG cells will give much more range.
For 10A/cell (a severe, ~4000w discharge rate), they're effectively equal.

Only better for racing (which was never the objective for S20).

And we can't say anything concrete about relative safety, yet.
Both cells are the usual, risky, Cobalt-based chemistry.
And the only M50LT pack that has burned thusfar is the NYC S20 demo, which was short-circuit discharged and set its nickel strips ablaze (fire initiated outside the cell). 

I'd prefer mine with 50E's, please...

 

 

You are correct (pretty much always the case lol). If your a light weight rider, or someone who just cruises around relatively slowly then the high capacity cells are fine and might suit you better. I have not run the numbers but I'm willing to bet that the S22 is capable of recharging M50LT cells at a rate that is higher than they are designed for. Long term this can lead to a dangerous situation that can ultimately result in a fire. I personally don't think its worth the risk of using low discharge cells in the wheel. The wheel is less likely to experience a cutout and catch on fire long term if it uses high discharge cells. I have a S22 pre-ordered (ewheels so it comes with 40T 😁) and I just pre-ordered a master from ewheels also with 40T cells. I think its totally crazy that they are even offering the Master with high capacity cells... its the most extreme performance wheel ever made and its only using 128 21700 cells... they NEED to be high discharge. I don't foresee many people buying a master to cruise slowly on it...

[onkeldanuel]

10 minutes ago, sevin7 said:

think its totally crazy that they are even offering the Master with high capacity cells... its the most extreme performance wheel ever made and its only using 128 21700 cells... they NEED to be high discharge. I don't foresee many people buying a master to cruise slowly on it...

In its 4p configuration you can Peak it at over 10000 Watts whithin their specification.....i dont think you will achieve this often for a longer time period because even If the Motor Delivers that than your Mainboard or wires Go to smoke before the Samsung 50E cells ....thats my opinion on this

[Paul A]

Would this be equivalent to hitting (big) bumps, necessitating spike in current draw, presumably with the original higher capacity/lower discharge batteries?

Video upload date November 10, 2021, before the NYC fire.

 

KingsongS20 climbing Stairs with ease!

3,442 views

Nov 10, 2021

 

[Robse]

"Attack with ease"...ahhh.. he is kind of jumping one step at a time. Almost any wheel can do that if you can keep the balance.  Think i can do that with my old ninebot one

[Cress]

Sales pitches shape everything in human history including engineering of EUCs.  Hub motors and Li-ion batteries are technology we're using before Manufacturers, engineers, and users can see a history of the new technology that would keep a sales-pitch in perspective.  The S20 climbing stairs in @Paul A's post above is a good sales pitch but we don't have a perspective including what current peaks are doing to battery service life, battery heating, battery susceptibility to fail/fire if another component fails.   Hub-motor configuration of an EUC works great but has horrendously inefficient torque-curve; hub motors don't work in airplanes, cars or trucks.  Li-ion batteries are getting better but EUC hub-motors use Li-ion at the limit of battery capability.  eWheels, @Jason McNeil, started a trend (I hope) by offering battery options.  With battery options users will report experiences, we'll accumulate user reports and we'll have a kind of 'shared history' to keep sales pitches in perspective.

New EUC products are failing often enough to interfere with EUC evolution, a good reason to pay attention to what EUC Manufacturers are doing.  

EUCs are a 'special use' category for battery-motor devices; hub motors have problematic power consumption and use Li-ion batteries at the edge of capacity.  But, maybe we're looking at one aspect of a race between Lithium batteries and what replaces them?  Solid-State, maybe?

[Paul A]

EUC sales pitch, early days...

[Rawnei]

3 hours ago, Cress said:

EUCs are a 'special use' category for battery-motor devices; hub motors have problematic power consumption and use Li-ion batteries at the edge of capacity.  But, maybe we're looking at one aspect of a race between Lithium batteries and what replaces them?  Solid-State, maybe?

Solid state mass production can't get here fast enough, no fire hazard, faster charging, more capacity, seems like a major upgrade to any type of electronic vehicle.

[supercurio]

I know a few people really wondering what to do with their S22 (pre) order so I invited @mrelwood and @roghaj , and we tried to answer this question via an in-depth analysis of what went wrong and Kingsong's response since.

And it's the first episode of the EUC #tech podcast!

Because I imagine few, if anyone will have the time to listen to the whole thing, there's chapters including for the "actionable buyers advice"
Hopefully that'll help gain some clarity!

Edited April 21, 2022 by supercurio

[Wolverine]

19 hours ago, PourUC said:

This still is counter to reality though.

Both the S22/S18 suspensions offer fine control and tuning. The S22 however, due to having a shock has less fine tuning.

The V11 isn't some pinnacle of fine tuning though. It has no rebound adjustment. Just a positive and negative chamber. There is no rebound time adjustment what so ever which is a key component when it comes to taking a wheel off-road. 

The S22 does have rebound adjustment. So that is a bit of tuning that the S22 has that the V11 doesn't.

My point is to say, it's not accurate to describe the V11 suspenion as fine tunable to the riders every need and the S22 as unadaptive. If anything... people weight doesn't change that much or often, so changing the damping based on what you expect to do (jump, bumps, stairs, etc) is arguably more useful than changing the 'effective preload' with the air chambers.

Now I am not bashing on the V11, but it seems that was your aim against Kingsong by making it seem like the V11 suspension was the pinnacle in fine tuning.

So far, only a few have answered a question from a member of our community. It is good to see that others are also expressing their views on this matter as I have done it already.

Looks like you didn't notice my first post, which was also a direct answer to the question. Please feel free to read it. All in all, I wrote about what I learned when I watched videos from the most famous youtubers about comparing the S20/S22 with the V11, and I included my personal experience with the Inmotion V11 to the answer.

It's just an opinion among others and the more opinions, the better. By the way, I also have the S20/S22 on my thoughts as the next wheel.

[Cress]

I want to add 2Cents to @supercurio 's video post, above.  We can hope EUC Manufacturers follow this forum, watch Supercurio's video, understand EUCs are reviewed by informed users who expect honest, transparent communication with the Manufacturer.  The S20/22 looks like an EUC with improvements that I expect to see on my next EUC - and electrical design issues that nobody should see.

I agree, absolutely, with @roghaj , the first upgrade I'd make to an S20/22 is fuses in-line with the batteries, firmware won't replace fuses.  I agree with the consensus,  King Song's explanation of the failure and their fix . . . . doesn't pass anybody's test.

@U-Stride 's first impression might be helpful, can't be ignored.  He said the 'pop' he heard just before he bailed-off the wheel was familiar and sounded like a capacitor.  It would be interesting to confirm / rule-out the capacitor based on what's left of the board, pictures aren't definitive.  Most EUCs use voltage doubling, including two electrolytic capacitors and diodes, for regenerative breaking.  The voltage doubler charges EUC batteries directly.  An electrolytic is likely to fail 'shorted.'  I agree that one electrolytic and diode in series isn't likely to make  a battery fail but we don't know what happened to the diodes, 2nd electrolytic and connections to the board. There's a good probability Manufacturers haven't reviewed regenerative breaking; Inmotion didn't review mosfets in their controllers . . . .

I've got less understanding of the battery.  Li-ion batteries are inconsistent by nature, reactive chemicals that battery engineers try to control.  The battery industry tries  to mitigate Lithium metal deposits, dendrites, that bridge between electrodes and cause shorts internally.   Li-ion batteries heat focally and fail 'avalanche' mode without advance notice.  EUC design needs the best technology the Li-ion industry can deliver and even the best won't be perfect.  With an understanding that 'nothing is perfect,' EUC buyers deserve the best information about how their EUC is using the battery and how battery specifications compare to the EUC.  Spec-sheets aren't enough.  We need specifications, trust in the battery manufacturer, and a pedigree / history of a specific battery model.  I expect battery designers have helpful thoughts about regenerative breaking, current demands above the spec-sheet but we're not talking to battery engineers - we're learning through beta-testing.

I haven't tried one yet.  I expect the S20/22 is a good design in almost every way and @U-Stride 's experience shouldn't distract from what King Song did right.

I don't have a future as a beta-tester but I like to watch.

[Tawpie]

40 minutes ago, Cress said:

King Song's explanation of the failure and their fix . . . . doesn't pass anybody's test.

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and it passes my test. Not only is the explanation reasonable and technically supportable, but they demonstrated the failure mode (glowing nickel strips) and the effectiveness of the fix (lock out the MOSFET on the BMS after first overcurrent trip) and the existing fuse (force the firmware controlled circuit breaker into the on state and blow the surface mounted BMS fuse). Did they address all imaginable scenarios? Nope, just this one. Mind you, this one falls into the classification of a critical oversight and should have been, but wasn't, caught and corrected before anyone got on a wheel. Design review process changes are hidden from our view, and to me that's what counts going forward.

But sure, add an in line fuse. Something like this should do, 150VDC, 30A and only 1.5 inches long https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/eaton-bussmann-electrical-division/FWA-30A10F/1645302 Do it with thought and deliberation though, you don't want that to open circuit because your soldering/crimping/fuse/fuse holder accidentally open circuits. Be sure to consider corrosion. You are introducing an additional single point of failure in your power delivery system.

I might even consider testing to see what happens to an in line fuse under the circumstances of faulty firmware as well (on off on off on off, although this would be a challenge because you'd need to replicate the duty cycle they had—I don't know how quickly the firmware turned off the BMS MOSFET circuit breaker but bet it was pretty quick).

And think about it. How does your household's 15A circuit breaker not trip when the incandescent light bulbs are glowing white hot and your toaster is glowing red hot?

Edited April 22, 2022 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

KS making public the qualifications of key personnel might help to ease anxieties and improve confidence.

[RagingGrandpa]

26 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and it passes my test.

+1 

I'm very impressed that they performed a destructive test that replicated the fire, and published the result. Kudos, Kingsong.

I wish they would change their fuse rating from 60A to 30A... but if the BMS is working properly, it's fine as-is.

[supercurio]

49 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering and it passes my test. Not only is the explanation reasonable and technically supportable, but they demonstrated the failure mode (glowing nickel strips) and the effectiveness of the fix (force the firmware controlled circuit breaker into the on state and blow the surface mounted BMS fuse). Did they address all imaginable scenarios? Nope, just this one. Mind you, this one falls into the classification of a critical oversight and should have been, but wasn't, caught and corrected before anyone got on a wheel. Design review process changes are hidden from our view, and to me that's what counts going forward.

What is your understanding regarding:

• nickel strips glowing red hot under pulsating current & fuse not blowing
• fuse blowing immediately under non-pulsating current & nothing happening with the nickel strips

I was surprised by Roger @roghaj strong doubts for this explanation as well, since it's the single element KS report highlighted after they reproduced it and their whole reasoning. I really really wish they showed this key aspect in their battery test video like everything else, instead of just tossing a couple static pictures in the beginning: it would have proven the credibility of this scenario and avoided skepticism.

Is it because fuses are composed of specific materials with heat dissipation characteristics which allow them to sustain currents without blowing or getting red hot?
I imagine that a nickel strip, from its shape would dissipate heat easier since they're soldered to the PCB and the cells vs a tiny fuse.

Or is the idea that if there's a complete short, the nickel strips would take a while to get hot because of this thermal mass while the fuse has negligible thermal mass therefore blows instantly?

I still think that any sustained or pulsating current for that matter which gets the nickel strips red hot but doesn't blow the tiny fuse highlights that either the nickel strips are not thick enough and/or the fuse is rated for a too high current.
Relying on a difference of thermal mass and assuming a short is complete and uninterrupted for the fuse to blow seems unwise.

49 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

But sure, add an in line fuse. Something like this should do, 150VDC, 30A and only 1.5 inches long https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/eaton-bussmann-electrical-division/FWA-30A10F/1645302 Do it with thought and deliberation though, you don't want that to open circuit because your soldering/crimping/fuse/fuse holder accidentally open circuits. Be sure to consider corrosion. You are introducing an additional single point of failure in your power delivery system.

What would you think of an automotive fuse in a holder like that?
https://www.biltema.se/en-se/car---mc/car-electrical-system/fuses/fuse-holder-midi-2000047018

I think it's similar to what LiTech packs are using.

49 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I might even consider testing to see what happens to an in line fuse under the circumstances of faulty firmware as well (on off on off on off, although this would be a challenge because you'd need to replicate the duty cycle they had—I don't know how quickly the firmware turned off the BMS MOSFET circuit breaker but bet it was pretty quick).

I think I would like to challenge the assumption that it requires a certain duty cycle to trigger this scenario. That's the part I have a very hard time finding credible.

In short: what if you drain 70A from the pack continuously:
Wouldn't the strip get red hot already, while the fuse slowly gets to the temperature where it'll blow?

Edited April 22, 2022 by supercurio

[Elliott Reitz]

Well my S22 is out of commission.  BMS signal/cable fault.  Power on goes into tiltback.