Paulo Mesquita Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 ..." and on the 6th day he rested!".... Not only because it's my birthday....IT'S BEACUSE I'M BLOODY EXHAUSTED!!! Every muscle in my body aches. These first five days of practicing between 30 and 45 minutes have taken it's toll, and I feel like I did 3 master classes at the gym...in a row!!!. So today, it's birthday cake, rest and not much more!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Mesquita Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 22 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said: You could always set tiltback REALLY slow, so you can seee how nifty it is, w/o much risk. At what speed would you recommend I set my tilt back speed as the newbie I am? ...may I suggest yet another thing... "patience". You are trying too hard and may be putting yourself into speeds or danger you shouldnt be. I totally agree!!! I had to try the max speed my confidence allowed after 5 days of training in a very confined space and the 20.2km/hour was satisfying. But now I'm going to do as you say. After all the grace and difficulty of this learning curve is getting to do the best maneuvering with accurate micro muscle movements, at low speeds. That's where the art of EUC riding is!!! ... quit going so damn fast! YOu aint a spring chicken and parking lots arent soft. Whats it cost to repair a car door, if it had been that and not a concrete wall? Yep, a car door would have hurt my wallet a lot more than ramming into the wall myself... 22 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said: ...Wobbles will just go away as you do it more frequently. I wobble when pushing new speeds. My two wobble events were really weird because I was going at an average speed, not slowing douw or speeding. I must have done something else wrong... ...Anything over 5mph but below 7mph and the gyro effect makes riding pleasant but slow enought to practice and run it out. Makes all the sense to me...:-) @ShanesPlanet it's great to have a teacher like you helping out this old f@rt in keeping his cool and common sense. Thanks mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Mesquita Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 22 hours ago, Tawpie said: +1 to what @ShanesPlanet wrote... patience grasshopper. We don't want to lose you to injury. Someday when COVID and Mr. Visa allow such things I want to visit Portugal, borrow one of your old wheels, and go for a ride with you (true, that's a totally selfish reason for not wanting to see you injured ). You're very welcome to come and visit! I'll even convince you to buy a house in Portugal and stay living here! I'm a Remax Realtor and you have no idea of how many americans are buying here right now!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said: @ShanesPlanet it's great to have a teacher like you helping out this old f@rt in keeping his cool and common sense. Thanks mate! I'm just a guy who picked one of these odd contraptions up, a little sooner than you did, and I'm about 10 yrs dumber still. I clocked running speed at 12mph once. I fell off my mten at a mere 10mph and it was BARELY saveable with a runout. Hitting the ground at run speed froma standstill, is hard on those knees. SPeeds are a preferance thing, but I'd think that 8mph or less COULD be a safe bet. Just remember not to ignore your alarm or you're training yourself for future issues with compliance when they REALLY matter. You really just want to go a little slower than you can run out. Not for long, just maybe lower speeds for a couple days. Too slow and it'll be really hard. Too fast and a simple jump off, isnt so simple. You do realize that taking ANY of my advice is probably a mistake and also at your own risk?! Wobbles just happen bro(worse when youre tired or shivering too). I couldnt tell you why and you won't hardly know. It just goes away as you get more miles. In the beginning, I would wobble at 15-20mph and it was slow enough I would ride it and look REALLY hard at my feet and my shoulders and hips and still... no idea why. Riding below the speed you wobble for a while is the answer. Over a few days youll soon realize you are going faster than you were and still no wobbles. Evenetually its just not much an issue. If you wobble, just try to carve/lean a little bit. Sometimes slowing down doesnt help, especially if it happens at a speed where you cant slow fast enough to jump off safely in a hurry. FOr now, your wobbles are slow, so you can always try a 'shit stop', as your speed to zero is a fraction of time. Just ride man. Find that perfect speed of slow but fast enough. Dont think, just ride. If you start to wobble, dont panic and microshift your weight. Just ride bro! Fwiw, usa is stuck with me. It wouldnt be fair to Portugal (or anywhere else) for me to add to their population with my brand of human. No passports for me, thanks! Edited February 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) Please take this the right way. 13 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said: ..." and on the 6th day he rested!".... Not only because it's my birthday....IT'S BEACUSE I'M BLOODY EXHAUSTED!!! Every muscle in my body aches. These first five days of practicing between 30 and 45 minutes have taken it's toll, and I feel like I did 3 master classes at the gym...in a row!!!. So today, it's birthday cake, rest and not much more!!! This is pretty funny. I can say that I rode a short test ride on my V11. And decided it is time to take a break myself. Too icey roads making it too risky to ride. (with no improvement expected the next week) Edited February 3, 2021 by Unventor 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Mesquita Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 21 hours ago, UniMe said: ... The goal is to learn important skills while going slow enough that you can safely exit the wheel without falling. I totally agree and as I mentioned before, responding to @ShanesPlanet that's the way I'm going now. ...My KS 18XL (which I think uses the same software as your wheel) has beeper settings to alert you to different speeds. I did well over 50km before I moved the beeper above 17kph... This is one of my major problems: I'm totally deaf to high pitch sounds. When I first calibrated my KS I had to ask my wife to hear the beep sequence for me. Is there a way for me to be alerted differently than with the beeps? That would help a lot. ... There are lots of threads and ideas here re speed wobbles. I need to find one good one to read. 21 hours ago, UniMe said: AND -- CONGRATULATIONS ON THE PROGRESS!!! This is the point where it gets rewarding, so long as you don't end up broken Thanks for the helpful insights. It's bee really important for me to "pick from all your brains". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Mesquita Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 21 hours ago, UniMe said: Oh, and f those fancy cars... I've had a few, if you can't afford to fix one you shouldn't own it!! LOL hahaha My neighbors can afford them...I'm the one that can't afford ramming into one of them with the EUC!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Mesquita Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 12 hours ago, Unventor said: ...About speed. It is partly your friend and enemy. So true!!! ...You not only need to train balance but unconscious control to become one with the wheel. That last part take much long time. I believe that is my biggest challenge. Muscle memory working well PLUS unconscious control!!! BTW welcome to the club of EUC riders, new adventures awaits you, and happy birthday to you. 🎂 Thanks mate. I had a great day!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulo Mesquita Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 53 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said: ...Just remember not to ignore your alarm or you're training yourself for future issues with compliance when they REALLY matter. As I mentioned a few minutes before in another answer, I am totally deaf to High pitch sounds. So the beeps are a serious issue for my safety. Any ideas on another solution? ...You really just want to go a little slower than you can run out. That is the plan for the next weeks, definitely.... ...Wobbles just happen bro(worse when you're tired or shivering too). I couldn't tell you why and you won't hardly know. It just goes away as you get more miles. In the beginning, I would wobble at 15-20mph and it was slow enough I would ride it and look REALLY hard at my feet and my shoulders and hips and still... no idea why. Riding below the speed you wobble for a while is the answer. Over a few days youll soon realize you are going faster than you were and still no wobbles. Evenetually its just not much an issue. That makes sense. There was no particular reason when it happened, speed wise. Maybe my legs were tired. I know that the for the second wobble I was able to slow down to an almost stop and avoided another hard and painful fall like the one due to the 1st wobble... ...If you start to wobble, dont panic and microshift your weight. Just ride bro! easier said than done... 53 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said: Fwiw, usa is stuck with me. It wouldnt be fair to Portugal (or anywhere else) for me to add to their population with my brand of human. No passports for me, thanks! you don't know what you're missing. For some reason they call Portugal the California of Europe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Paulo Mesquita said: you don't know what you're missing. For some reason they call Portugal the California of Europe! I use a lemfo Lemt with eucw sometimes. I use it for tours, but it also vibrates. If you cant hear a beep, that IS a serious safety concern. Perhaps investing in any number of droid devices and relying on vibration features? Not toally fool proof, but better than a def man sitting on the tracks, listening for a train. I know I cn def feel mine vibrate the few times ive worn it. Mine stay strapped to the wheel tho, so... Comparing anything to California, only strengthens my resolve to not go. Any odds Portugal will take ALL of California for me? I'll toss in NYC as a bonus! Vote ShanesPlanet for president and I'll see what I can do! I prefer living in fair solitude among the rednecks. Expanding populace is horrid imho. Edited February 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tawpie Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Paulo Mesquita said: As I mentioned a few minutes before in another answer, I am totally deaf to High pitch sounds. So the beeps are a serious issue for my safety. Any ideas on another solution? I got a pebble watch from eBay (45USD?) and a 100USD Moto Play 7 that sits in my pocket (no cell plan) running EUC World. @Seba has detailed video instructions on how to get them setup. The pebble is velcroed to my jacket, and it vibrates like a small animal when alarms are tripped. If you're iPhone, I think DarknessBot will vibrate an apple watch, but don't know for sure. It will show your speed and do several other things but I don't know how the alarms work. Perhaps lower cost if you're Android is I'm pretty sure EUC World will let you play an alarm sound over your wheel's speakers. In @Marty Backe 's videos he has an overcurrent alarm that makes a low frequency horn-like sound. You'll obviously have to set your phone to connect to the wheel's bluetooth, but then you can rock your favorite tunes while you ride too! It's a real good idea to set the alarms to a low speed that you're comfortable with, then exceed them to see how the alarms work. Knowing what the final tilt back feels like is critically important, you don't want to suddenly experience an unknown strange wheel reaction when you're going too fast for safety. Set the max speed to something like 12-15 km/hr and get used to what the tilt back feels like (once you're pretty comfortable with a straight line at that speed). Can you hear it say "please decelerate"? It's annoying and I keep mine turned off, but it does that over the wheel speakers. I guess that's the no-cost option! Edited February 3, 2021 by Tawpie that time it was autocorrupt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniMe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) one thing I'll mention is that the speed wobbles are partly related to where you position your weight relative to the center of the wheel. If I'm a bit too far forward on my wheel, either due to my foot position being too far forward or because I'm leaning forward (like you're doing in the video, bending from the hip or mid back and reaching forward), that the wheel is much more likely to wobble as I pick up speed. This is something I'm fine tuning right now with my RS by adjusting exactly where the power pads are positioned. I had them a bit too far forward at first and the wheel would start to wobble as I approached 40kph, worse while accelerating. At first the speed wobbles really freaked me out! Then I felt indignant, that the stupid wheel was poorly designed lol. Now, I realize that its mostly a physics thing that is inherent to doing something as crazy as riding around on one wheel. In addition to the position of your weight relative to the wheel the other basic fact about the wheels is that they handle better while moving in some type of arc rather than if you try to go in a perfectly straight line. By always shifting weight left and right, and carving (even if it's just a very small amount), the wheel becomes a lot more stable. It also makes longer rides easier on your legs etc. as moving your weight around reduces the risk of foot cramps and fatigue in general. So there you go, something to plan for edit: I have a passport or two and am really looking forward to touring Portugal. For my last European adventure we drove all around Sicily, from Catania, west along the south coast, up through the middle for a while and then to Palermo. I like to drive and had a blast there. I'm thinking Portugal will be a bit less crazy on the driving side.... and you have the 'trifecta' of beach, seafood and fantastic wine... not to mention a couple interesting universities that research things I'm interested in. Edited February 3, 2021 by UniMe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) Speed wobbles exist with many vehicles, in our case (like with skateboard) it is an overcompensation loop / synergy. It mostly happen when you learn riding, but can also kick in for a seasoned rider, due to fatigue, high speed or particularly strong tramline effect. If you get it from standing far front of the pedals it is probably because you're not used to standing on that place and the body isn't dosing the balance correctly. It should sort itself out with mileage. Edited February 3, 2021 by null 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniMe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 There are many who have different opinions about how speed wobbles generate on the EUC. There is a 100% relationship between me reaching forward, bending forward and the wheel wobbling. I can ride with my feet hanging off the front of the pedals, so you may have me there, but if I do this while reaching or bending forward the wheel will destabilize in a major way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, UniMe said: There are many who have different opinions about how speed wobbles generate on the EUC Not really. You pulled a "you can't explain that" and now you spin to cover it rather than accepting that there is a simple rationale. 45 minutes ago, UniMe said: There is a 100% relationship between me reaching forward, bending forward and the wheel wobbling. I can ride with my feet hanging off the front of the pedals, so you may have me there, but if I do this while reaching or bending forward the wheel will destabilize in a major way. Yes, because you don't master the position, same as a beginner wobbles on normal stances. You overcompensate and this builds up a synergy. Edited February 3, 2021 by null 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniMe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 not spinning, just disagreeing perhaps define how an overcompensation loop forms so we can understand the mechanics and why this is not more likely to form when the pendulum (your body) isn't centered over the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 50 minutes ago, UniMe said: not spinning, just disagreeing perhaps define how an overcompensation loop forms so we can understand the mechanics and why this is not more likely to form when the pendulum (your body) isn't centered over the wheel. I'll take a guess at it... I would think a wobble is similar to a motorcycle tank slapper. Once a balance shift occurs while we are attempting to stay centered, it cuases us to compensate to stay at equal center balance. An overcompensation causes the balance to shift the other way beyond center. So we do the same thing and continue to swap from one side to the other. Staying perfectly centered with no side loading is akin to maintaining perfect balance at a near no speed condition. The reaction of the tire as it turns side to side, creates its own push and dynamic as it also changes loading side to side and induces minor speed changes with it. As the tire more agressively swaps sides, it creates more and more abrupt directional shift with each pass. It begins as US overcompensating, but can quickly become a problem with how the wheel rebounds itself, as its no longer tracking perfectly forwards, but more like a turn back and forth. Big wobbles are akin to tank slappers, as the sideloading chage itself becomes the wobble and it can't be controlled once past a certain point. The idea of leaning/turning/accel/decell, is so that you create a new balance that is not centered. The new 'balance' offcentered, has the benefit of g forces and also the benefit of preventing an abrupt side loading changeup. Maintaining perfect balance is much harder than maintaining offset-balance with the help of g-forces. I have wobbled in turns of course, but being leaned over means that the wobble will NOT reach the point that the tire is changing sides in loading, it is merely loading a little less and a little more, but not opposite. Again, perfect symmetry and balance is MUCH harder to maintain, than an offset balance. Slowing while controlling a side lean is effective, as you are forcing the wheel to stay leaned and off center, less likely allowing it to choose for you. Try riding big even circles at a decent speed and note how evenly and smoothly you can do it. Now try and ride perfectly straight with minimal accel/deccel and tell me if its as smooth and easily maintained as the big circle.... Im sure there are much smarter people that can explain this better. Hell, I could also be wrong and am fully ready to be schooled as well. I just like to think it is very relative to the same idea that the nearer balanced you are, the more likely you wont know which way an inevitable imbalance will occur. I notice no difference in wobbles in relationship to my actual position on the wheel. Sitting, squatting, standing tall, are simply a posture, not a balance in itself. I find the wobble is more induced by my LACK of lean input and my overcorrection of unexpected tramming or muscle inaccuracies. This same theory is why I assume I feel much more stable when I accelerate thru a turn, rather than merely coast. The added g's and increased CONTROLLED imbalance, leaves less room for uncontrolled imbalances. . . or not, and im completely full of shit as usual. Edited February 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniMe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) For sure @ShanesPlanet, I agree with everything you said and also use the strategy of 'side loading' the wheel. In my experience (obviously limited compared to many others) leaning forward, extending arms forward, crouching without staying centered forward/back etc., all induce wobbling. While it may be possible to eventually adapt the micro movements necessary to compensate for or overcome wobbles in these positions, as a new rider it is hard to do. If I wanted to learn to ride with my arms out in front of me, bent forward at the waist, I would need this to be the riding position I trained all my muscles to ensure I'm safe in. As a new rider, this takes time and leaning/reaching forward introduces variables that increase the risk of wheel wobble. Hopefully that makes sense... in my initial post I also commented on the side loading/carving, so I think we're more in agreement than not. Well, that, and my love for warm beaches in Europe and frustration at needing to cancel a trip to Portugal last year Edit: and while we probably have different reasons for disliking Cali, the massive cities there and the horrific homeless numbers and conditions is heartbreaking to see.... my last trip to SF had me smelling feces and urine filled dust as it blew through the city core every time I went outside. I don't know the source of this social hardship, only that it is awful. Edited February 3, 2021 by UniMe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, UniMe said: For sure @ShanesPlanet, I agree with everything you said and also use the strategy of 'side loading' the wheel. In my experience (obviously limited compared to many others) leaning forward, extending arms forward, crouching without staying centered forward/back etc., all induce wobbling. While it may be possible to eventually adapt the micro movements necessary to compensate for or overcome wobbles, as a new rider it is hard to do. If I wanted to learn to ride with my arms out in front of me, bent forward at the waist, I would need this to be the riding position I trained all my muscles to ensure I'm safe in. As a new rider, this takes time and leaning/reaching forward introduces variables that increase the risk of wheel wobble. Hopefully that makes sense... in my initial post I also commented on the side loading/carving, so I think we're more in agreement than not. Well, that, and my love for warm beaches in Europe and frustration at needing to cancel a trip to Portugal last year I'd imagine if you had begun your euc carreer by riding with your "extending arms forward, crouching without staying centered forward/back etc." , we wouldnt be hashing this out. I think its more the lack of practice in these postures, than the postures themselves. When I first saw a seated rider I was like.. wtf! How can they possibly do that and not wobble to death? My first try seated took 30seconds to figure out. Im not a quick learner, but i just focused on ignoring the fact i was sitting and paying attention to the same thing I had learned while standing. Oddly enough, once seated, it was just as stable as could be. My posture had changed drastically, but my balance had not. IN the end, I experienced similar results. However, Im too tall for sitting and it totally sucks. I sit on motorcycles, i stand on badass eucs! mmm. warm beaches! We just got hit with a mountain snow storm. Fireplace is crackin and Im already so over it! You better hurry, I hear Portugal is getting crowded and will be ruined very shortly from it. Edited February 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniMe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Exactly! and in this thread we are supporting a new rider to avoid wobbles. So, pick a stable posture, likely better if centered over the wheel than leaning/reaching forward and stick with it until you gain mastery. Then, learn to crouch (what I'm working on) and eventually even sit on the wheel. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, UniMe said: Exactly! and in this thread we are supporting a new rider to avoid wobbles. So, pick a stable posture, likely better if centered over the wheel than leaning/reaching forward and stick with it until you gain mastery. Then, learn to crouch (what I'm working on) and eventually even sit on the wheel. he already got the short answer for fixing wobbles. ride slower and ride more The rest is just d**k shaking aint it? I do enjoy my d**k shaking tho! Edited February 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniMe Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) And many recommendations that he try to avoid leaning forward. My d**k is too little to shake, so.... The final comment I'll make about this relates to the mechanics of how our bodies work. If you ever watch a slack liner, gymnast on the beam, tight rope walker etc., they all maintain incredibly upright postures when moving forward and maintaining side to side balance. This is because the core musculature of our bodies are more responsive and better able to make the necessary corrections to maintain balance when our head is above our hips and not out in front. When a person flexes at the waist and/or reaches forward they introduce dynamics to their body posture and movement that are simply more difficult to manage. While I agree with both Shane and Null that it's possible to adapt to these postures I still don't believe it is ideal or a place where a new rider should start. Why would someone struggling with a new skill adopt an early posture that makes it more difficult to learn? With the EUC you not only need to balance but to also develop millisecond type responses that prevent the wheel from wobbling, many of these responses are generated in the core musculature we use for balance. Edited February 3, 2021 by UniMe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 (edited) in a forward lean with a wheel pushing against us, we are in effect in an 'upright' posture. This is not shared by your other examples, tho your point is well taken and great info. Standing upright while moving forwards is actually a little behind the center of gravity. Same basic principal, but we have to bend more at the ankles and compensate at the knees and waist. Maybe Im wording that wrong, but you get the gist. @Paulo Mesquita seems like he totally digs reading this stuff, gives me excuse to blah blah blah blah. Edited February 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Seba Posted February 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 3, 2021 7 hours ago, Paulo Mesquita said: This is one of my major problems: I'm totally deaf to high pitch sounds. When I first calibrated my KS I had to ask my wife to hear the beep sequence for me. Is there a way for me to be alerted differently than with the beeps? That would help a lot. Consider getting one of Aftershokz headphones. They are different from typical headphones in that they are using bone conduction technology. As this technology is used in hearing aids, you could benefit from Aftershokz. Another great advantage of Aftershokz is that they don't block your ears. Recently Aftershokz released relatively cheap model - Aftershokz Openmove, with price tag below 100 EUR in Portugal: https://www.probikeshop.pt/auriculares-bluetooth-aftershokz-open-move-cinzento/213583.html With Aftershokz and EUC World, you can set many different and customized alarms and voice messages that you won't miss even in the strongest wind noise. And having ears open for ambient sound will keep you aware of surroundings, nearby traffic etc. You can also listen to your favourite tunes while riding, still hearing all the sounds from outside world. Of course, music volume can't be too high 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellowjacket Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) On 1/28/2021 at 1:03 PM, scubadragosan said: I am 61. Learned EUC 3 years ago. My wife 68, learned at 65. Is this any boost of confidence for you? Hope so...Hope we'll keep riding til drop dead! Took it up last year, when I was 70. Now I need to learn how to pendulum, cuz you know, it's hard lifting feet high enough to get them up on the pedals more than a few times a day. I think the new S18 will be easier on my bones. Figure eights were helpful, but spend as much time learning to stop safely as learning to go. Please also remember, we usually go where we're looking. I really didn't want to rear end that truck, but kept looking at it until … (I wear a helmet on the street). Edited February 4, 2021 by Yellowjacket 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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