Flying W Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 I started on a 16s in soft mode. Rode 300 miles or so then switched to hard mode....didn't really like either so went to led where it stayed. Then @houseofjob let me know that soft mode on a 16s is complete shit, and it is. All it does is give slack in the initial lean where the motor doesn't do anything. then I got an mcm5, soft mode is ridable and fun on the mcm5, but it's not a true soft mode. It just tilts further in each direction, but once your at that tilt it's hard again just angled. the RS soft mode works much the same way the mcm5 does, but the tilting is slower. having the ability to adjust it like what the v11 sounds like it has would be great. I think I'd really enjoy riding a true soft mode. and the pedal dip on the RS in turns is excessive, enough so that I'll be buying a new board if/when (ok if....it is gotway after all so they will have a new RS in 6 months) they have firmware that everyone loves. The RS will climb until traction is lost though which I love. And the breaking is excellent. Very controlled going down steep mnt bike trails. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ádám Szitás Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said: First off, your analogy of learning on a stable surface vs rocking is flawed, as we know that the rocking motion of an EUC soft mode is an aid to your body lean movements. It’s not at all like you’re trying to balance on a boat that’s rocking. It is an aid, yes, but it sure does not feel like one when you are new to it, it just feels like it wants to throw you to the ground instead of keeping you leveled. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 14 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said: I find it funny that you’re attacking someone who is picking the neutral ground, the burden of proving anything right or wrong lays on YOU as you are the one who is picking a side. Saying that they are both just as easy to a new rider and that it's all just down to what you start on is still "picking a side" and he isn't attacking you just because he disagrees Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 11 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said: It is an aid, yes, but it sure does not feel like one when you are new to it, it just feels like it wants to throw you to the ground instead of keeping you leveled. How are you to know that you need to be level though? You can’t possibly know that unless you have experience with wheels. This is what I’m saying: experience bias. You un-level yourself when turning so why not when accelerating and decelerating? You can’t possibly fathom how an EUC is supposed to feel as a beginner. Now that I’m used to hard mode, and know about pedal dips because of lack of torque, soft mode feels like suicide mode. But when I was learning, I didn’t know any of these things and even if I had read about them I couldn’t possibly know what they felt like/meant in real world context with no experience. I learned on an eBay step n roll which has the swingiest soft mode partly because of how underpowered it is. There is no switching modes, no app to play with. When I try it today it feels like it’ll cut off at any second. Back then, when I received my second wheel, an inmotion v5, hard mode simply felt like much stronger power delivery, but it initially caused me wobbles at speed with the lack of pedal dip to aid my acceleration and braking. I had to manipulate my posture in a new way in order to mimic the dip soft mode had given me to accelerate. There was no “hard mode is way easier”. It was in fact more challenging after having ridden a soft wheel for so long. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ádám Szitás Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 I learned on a v5f luckily, not some older wheel, but I think I wouldn't have learned to ride if it was swinging front and back too much. After all, it is supposed to keep me level, that's why it is a self balancing vehicle, yet it feels like it cannot do that. Nobody calls hardmode suicide mode, yet many call soft mode that, new or veteran people alike, so why is that? hardmode just gives much more confidence and trust in the wheel that it can actually keep you level. When you are turning I think you are past this period so you can't know how turning feels like. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D3m0nzz Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Hard mode is for noobs. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 7 minutes ago, D3m0nzz said: Hard mode is for noobs. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said: After all, it is supposed to keep me level, that's why it is a self balancing vehicle, yet it feels like it cannot do that. LOL. Well... come on when you first got on did it even remotely come close to your expectations of being a “self balancing” vehicle? I rode Segway mini’s for a while before trying and the Segway is true self balancing, the EUC is not. It’s one wheel and after my first try it become glaringly obvious that it would not keep me upright with minimal effort. I think the LAST thing a beginner is worried about is if they feel like they’re going to fall off forwards or backwards. Because it’s the frontal plane movement- side to side- that we are struggling to get used to. Most people can not ride in a straight line in the beginning, the wheel is just taking them wherever, and they’re doing little 180’s fighting to ride straight. Edited January 18, 2021 by Darrell Wesh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yuweng Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Offroad guy here, the first week i rode on soft mode, my mcm5 feels like throwing me off all the time After getting use to, it feels like it has absorber 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post pico Posted January 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 18, 2021 Here we are, trying to solve a multi variable equation. Behavior of the wheel = tyre pressure & surface condition & trust in the wheel to hold us & Ankle and Joint mobility & ankle muscles strength & wheel amplifier GAIN (soft to hard) & experience of the rider No wonder why there are so many solutions. For info: I can do this pretty difficult maneuver successfully on 7 different wheels. From marshmallow NB1 to SUPER hard mode Mten 3 and I have to fine tune the mode on the V8F as the hard mode is TOO HARD on some surfaces... Ehhh! What do I know, I am just an inexperienced rider 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, houseofjob said: there is a considerable amount more power needed to move the wheel object from rest (overcome the potential energy at rest, friction, all of that) than accel at speed (very little to overcome, momentum is already there). On hard mode, it’s as if you’re starting (arbitrary values here) at 0 (rest) then sudden 10 NM force (first lean), no middle values, as opposed to a soft mode scenario where you spread this out with pedal travel and can utilize much more of that 0-10 NM and beyond. First off, thanks for splitting this off @meepmeepmayer, I was going to ask if you could do that. Secondly, I think the topic has drifted somewhat off the initial question I had (and has morphed into how hard and soft modes feel different, which I totally agree with) and I have no problem with general mode talk at all, but if I can respond to House of Job as I still don't get it. You said that a wheel in hard mode would demand more power to start than one in soft mode. Assuming that the wheel itself doesn't change or alter the available power in any mode (which is how I believe it works) the only variable left is that of how much the wheel needs to lean in order to initiate movement. My argument is that you could accelerate 2 identical wheels just as quickly whatever mode you are in, the only difference being that the one in soft mode would require more 'lean'. And if they do indeed accelerate at the same speed, they are using the same amount of power. I am not saying you are wrong, you have vastly more experience than I do, but I do enjoy physics, and I am struggling to see how your argument stacks up. I do agree with most of your other points in terms of how different modes feel different, but your argument that hard mode, from a standstill, uses more power than soft mode (for the same given acceleration) doesn't make sense to me. Edited January 18, 2021 by Planemo 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 11 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: And this is also the reason why hard mode is much faster in acceleration then soft mode. And this is exactly the argument that I don't understand. My argument is that two riders, lets say one very skilled in hard mode and one very skilled in soft mode, should be able to accelerate just as fast as each other. The only difference being that the soft mode rider will need to lean his wheel more. Unless someone can tell me that the wheel in soft mode reduces its available power (through software), but AFAIK that doesn't happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Darrell Wesh Posted January 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, pico said: Ankle and Joint mobility & ankle muscles strength Interesting that you bring up this tidbit. I guess I’ll actually go into my thought process on this since someone brought it up. My belief is soft mode compensates for people with limited mobility that can not achieve full ankle ROM or have poor ankle dorsiflexion. We know that poor ankle dorsiflexion instigates knee problems, which is likely why soft mode users swear that it helps with knee problems and fatigue and is also likely why it’s called comfort mode in some wheels. This brings me to my second point revolving around dysfunctional riders and the foot: I don’t believe you should be on your toes at all to accelerate an EUC, a belief that puts me at odds with many riders as it’s a characteristic that many riders share(whether by foot dysfunction or by trying to emulate the riders they see on YouTube) From the video, an inability to keep your heel from lifting off the ground at a certain distance from the wall is indicative of poor ankle mobility and poor ankle dorsiflexion, both which are extremely important in accelerating on an EUC in a stable fashion. This is a common ankle test and surprises many people when they find how poor their results are when they take the test barefoot. Once the heels go up you introduce instability into your posture and the foot becomes weak and less stable. It’s amusing that people actually think they should be plantar-flexing on the pedals (heels up and toes down) when in fact you should be doing the opposite and dorsiflexing as your knees travel above your toes to accelerate. I’m not sure if “heel uppers” are actually trying to push down on the pedals with their toes; but the feet should be doing nothing but being rigid platforms for force application from the muscles above. The most rigid and stable platform is with the heels flat. Keeping the heels flat and dorsiflexing allows you to hinge forward the furthest on the EUC for the most acceleration with the most stability. A lot of this force application talk can be found in the track and field world. When people see good sprinters run, they often try to emulate them by plantar flexing as they run, because good sprinters seemingly run on their toes. But it’s actually not plantar flexing that the sprinters are doing; they’re dorsiflexing on ground contact. With the heels level with the toes, a much more rigid platform is created from the foot enabling more force to be output per stride. The drive phase of a sprint has similar knee/shin angles to accelerating on an EUC properly, and onlookers again incorrectly assume sprinters are pointing their toes down/plantar flexing to gain speed when they’re actually dorsiflexing. EDIT: @houseofjobI know you lift the heels up a ton, but your technique is radically different from the head on lean most of us use. My condemnation of the heel lift doesn’t apply to your technique as you don’t seem to hinge forward for acceleration. Edited January 18, 2021 by Darrell Wesh 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 20 minutes ago, Planemo said: And this is exactly the argument that I don't understand. My argument is that two riders, lets say one very skilled in hard mode and one very skilled in soft mode, should be able to accelerate just as fast as each other. The only difference being that the soft mode rider will need to lean his wheel more. Unless someone can tell me that the wheel in soft mode reduces its available power (through software), but AFAIK that doesn't happen. You aren’t taking into account the all important reaction time. As a sprinter, reaction times can result in a gold medal or an off the podium finish. With less lean needed for hard mode that means you reach 100% acceleration sooner then soft mode user who takes longer to lean into his 100% accelerative posture. In other words, that’s what makes it more responsive. Car drivers plug in throttle kits that improve reaction time so as soon as you press on the gas it goes, very little hesitation. It’s also why electric cars always beat gas cars off the line. Reaction time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 29 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said: You aren’t taking into account the all important reaction time. As a sprinter, reaction times can result in a gold medal or an off the podium finish. With less lean needed for hard mode that means you reach 100% acceleration sooner then soft mode user who takes longer to lean into his 100% accelerative posture. In other words, that’s what makes it more responsive. I'm not talking about reaction time or responsiveness though. House of Job said that hard mode used more power off the line. I am saying that the soft mode rider will use just as much power, even if his reaction time getting into his 'posture' takes slightly longer (which is a moot point IMO anyway). If you really do want to introduce reaction time into the argument, lets be specific about the example and add 'once both wheels start moving' so it removes that variable. I maintain that both wheels will use the same amount of power for the same acceleration. 29 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said: Car drivers plug in throttle kits that improve reaction time so as soon as you press on the gas it goes, very little hesitation. It’s also why electric cars always beat gas cars off the line. Reaction time. Electric cars being quicker off the mark has nothing to do with user input (reaction time) and everything to do with how electric motors can apply 100% of their torque instantaneously. And the plug-in 'acceleration kits' which claimed to speed up the throttle signal from the accelerator on gas cars were nothing but snake oil. The time it takes for a human to depress an accelerator from zero to full is totally miniscule compared to the time it takes the gas engine to start producing torque. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ádám Szitás Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 The point about soft mode creating less spikes is true, it evens out the acceleration, less power is used as it does not have to keep the pedals completeley leveled at all costs. also, it sure feels like you need to lean less in softmode as the wheel tilts instead of you having to lean 45 degree. I can go up big hills standing straight while hardmode users need to lean like crazy to make the wheel move, and I don't even need to sit down for emergency braking like on hardmode and I still stop way faster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 5 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said: The point about soft mode creating less spikes is true, it evens out the acceleration, less power is used as it does not have to keep the pedals completeley leveled at all costs. I think you're agreeing with me on that one point there. I did state previously that at a constant speed, soft mode will, due to allowing more fore/aft wheel movement, present less spikes induced by surface irregularities = less power used. In short, bumps are compensated to some extent by the wheel titling fore/aft rather than transferring that movement to immediate gyro corrections. My confusion is around House of Jobs claim that under acceleration from a standing start, hard mode uses more power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCrow Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: Keeping the heels flat and dorsiflexing allows you to hinge forward the furthest on the EUC for the most acceleration with the most stability. The pertinent question would be can you get more acceletation with less stability by plantar flexing? I'm sure there are tons of people willing to make the trade-off. Edit: I've got to try dorsiflexing next time I'm on an EUC. Does being forced to stand with both feet parallel and confined to one spot on the pedals make it uncomfortable or impede with the motion of hinging forward? Edited January 18, 2021 by BlueCrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUChristian Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: First off, your analogy of learning on a stable surface vs rocking is flawed, as we know that the rocking motion of an EUC soft mode is an aid to your body lean movements. It’s not at all like you’re trying to balance on a boat that’s rocking. You say you can learn faster in hard mode, but you can’t even prove your theory right. I made no claims to faster learning in a different mode. I merely stated that you would learn just as fast regardless of which mode you used. You’re the one who is now making a claim that can’t ever be proven that you can learn faster in hard mode. I find it funny that you’re attacking someone who is picking the neutral ground, the burden of proving anything right or wrong lays on YOU as you are the one who is picking a side. You must be confused-My argument isn’t about which mode is easier to learn on; that was your agenda on pushing which one is easier, if you read my statements you’ll see I’ve been neutral on this. My claim is that switching from soft mode after a month straight to hard mode will cause the rider to struggle and won’t be “obviously easier” as you put Have fun out there man. Edited January 18, 2021 by EUChristian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 5 hours ago, pico said: wheel amplifier GAIN (soft to hard) Ohhh! For the purists out there: This term includes the feedback loop gain(hardness) AND the wheel diameter! This will explain why some people with too much "enthusiasm" (remember the ankle flicker on the KS16X saga ) manage to face plant on the Mten3! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Oh man, there is so much here that reminds me of the city where @RoadRunner lives. The city is called Braunschweig and here in Germany every city has its own letters on the license plate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 27 minutes ago, EUC Custom Power-Pads said: there is so much here Please join in, the table is set! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planemo Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 30 minutes ago, EUC Custom Power-Pads said: Oh man, there is so much here that reminds me of the city where @RoadRunner lives. The city is called Braunschweig and here in Germany every city has its own letters on the license plate. Ah yes but what bits are BS? Theres arguments on all sides here 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 6 minutes ago, Planemo said: Ah yes but what bits are BS? Theres arguments on all sides here I am quite sure that you know that. I'm just a stupid beginner who can't ride and not only uses power pads, but also sells this superfluous crap. To at least say something on the subject, I ride the 16x in medium mode or soft mode. The MSP only in medium mode. The rest is absolute junk or rather I'm too stupid to use it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerDan Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 I see how softmode works fine on flat streets, but i harldy can wrap my head around how to ride a EUC with that characteristics offroad fast. So maybe its less a newb vs pro thing and more a question of field of application and preference... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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