Hard mode vs. soft mode

[RetroThruster]

I'm sure it's probably already been mentioned somewhere but I wonder if they might someday come up with a "smart mode" or a "custom mode" where pedals go from soft to hard or vice versa depending on speed or maybe even behavior like off roading to street.  I'm dumb and probably couldn't figure out how to use it anyways, just thought I'd ask.

[RagingGrandpa]

After 5000mi of flogging my MSX on steep singletrack and trying many things, my favorite has become:

• Soft mode: more confident acceleration and braking.
• Calibrate the horizon slightly toes-up: limits the extent of pedal dip that soft-mode acceleration creates. Toe clearance is precious offroad.
• (And massive 3"-thick lean pads of course)

.02

[Tawpie]

All this makes me figure I need to try the different modes and toes slightly up. I don't have power pads and find myself on tiptoes going up steep hills—definitely reinforces the "wheel is working hard" feeling. When traction is low and the way is bumpy, I can attest to the statement that tiptoes is absolutely not the ideal stance. I do tend to ride on the road in a more heel up fashion alternating heels with turn direction, I find it gives me finer control when going faster than does flat footed. IDK, I might not find having hard/soft choice to be particularly useful, but since they're available I really should experiment.

[houseofjob]

My Lord, what on earth have I woken up to?!  I thought this was just some innocuous convo here, not a heated debate.

 

@Darrell Wesh I appreciate you, as always, agree or disagree regardless, one of the only forum members here that will bring up esoteric stuff like dorsiflexion haha (bridging my EUC and running/gym training worlds, nice), plus I love the fact that such a world-class track-thlete would be geeking out about dorky EUC stuff with the rest of us dorky non-athlete EUC nerds, but arguing newbie experiences, don't think it's that serious my dude, everyone's opinion is a valid one there I think. If I was down in VA, we'd probably hug it out / drink it out, whatever your flavor is, #goodvibes 

 

9 hours ago, pico said:

For info: I can do this pretty difficult maneuver successfully on 7 different wheels. From marshmallow NB1 to SUPER hard mode Mten 3

and I have to fine tune the mode on the V8F as the hard mode is TOO HARD on some surfaces...

Interesting.

The thought did come across my mind a few times on how trick guys (as I myself am not so much) handle modes, or if they even care about modes.

 

8 hours ago, Planemo said:

First off, thanks for splitting this off @meepmeepmayer, I was going to ask if you could do that.

Secondly, I think the topic has drifted somewhat off the initial question I had (and has morphed into how hard and soft modes feel different, which I totally agree with) and I have no problem with general mode talk at all, but if I can respond to House of Job as I still don't get it.

You said that a wheel in hard mode would demand more power to start than one in soft mode. Assuming that the wheel itself doesn't change or alter the available power in any mode (which is how I believe it works) the only variable left is that of how much the wheel needs to lean in order to initiate movement.

My argument is that you could accelerate 2 identical wheels just as quickly whatever mode you are in, the only difference being that the one in soft mode would require more 'lean'. And if they do indeed accelerate at the same speed, they are using the same amount of power.

Sorry, I probably didn't explain this well the first time around, as I am oft to do (I can't promise I'll explain it too much better this time around, but will try )

It's a combination of the wheel + rider, combined with the mode I think, never only 1 thing / factor at play.

Yes, in a vacuum, removing the human physics element, there should be no difference in general power, hard mode or soft, if you can get like a machine to press it out precisely, just that the soft mode would require more range of movement, more angling to rotate/press that pedal arm; and for hard mode, you would need that same machine to not over-press, and super-precisely press throughout the range, due to the over-responsive nature.

But, unlike this perfect world, test pressing machine scenario, there are always 2 inefficiencies in human-based input EUC that we are trying to overcome IMHO:

• The human body on the wheel in a neutral, upright position, is maximized for braking / back lean, as the bodyweight predominantly falls in a straight line over the ankles and heels that sit on the back pedals (brake / backwards). Thus, regular ankle bend / dorsiflexion  -based leans that rock to the toes is not the most even and optimal transmission of force onto the toes / pedal fronts, like pressing the pedal front with a bent stick, as opposed to a straight stick directly on / pointed at the pedal fronts (all same applied force).
• If you look at an EUC as a clock where you are trying to spin the "hand" (or pedal arm) around one direction or the other with enough force to disrupt the gyroscopic balance equilibrium to elicit motion (what we are essentially trying to do, even on hard mode where there is no movement of the "hand" / pedal arm), the natural position of the pedal arm pointing straight down to 6 o'clock is the hardest leverage positioning because gravity is at a maximum. It's much easier when the "hand" / pedal arm is theoretically in a range of 2-4 o'clock or 8-10 o'clock, as you are aided by gravity, not fighting against it (hence why I favor pedal swing, when utilized correctly; why stuff like seated and pads have better effect than traditional stand up lean). LOL the visual aid for this point I always think of here is turning the Price is Right wheel  
  • 

Combine the above 2 points with the fact that on hard mode, the harder you press, the harder the wheel fights and presses you back, the point I was originally trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that, for the same initial range of body lean travel distance, hard mode summons more power, because the typical rider ankle-based lean is not the smoothest transmission IMHO, and hard mode by definition is hyper-reactive, for better and for worse. In soft mode, things are spread out, the pedals have to travel swing more distance for the same power response, so the same body lean travel distance does not summon as much power in that same lean distance as on hard.

(note: This isn't to say soft mode is "slower" than hard mode, because the way you need to ride on each modes are completely different ideas altogether: hard mode is more [ankle] lean and hold, whereas soft mode, due to the spreading out, swing distance, is more quick succession of "bike pedals" or "swim strokes" (force = mass * acceleration, hence on soft, we are trying to chain smaller quick accelerations instead of applying and holding more mass / muscle (hard mode), hopefully building better accel from successively quicker swing "strokes", aided by bodyweight, non-traditional lean angling etc). This is why you see the alternation / the "carving" with soft mode riders.)

I'm sure many on here think I'm full of 💩, but all I can really do is rationalize what I've actually felt real world (hence why I get the reactions of guys who have not felt this), experimenting on the wheel for the past 6 years, drawing from and applying concepts I've learned in other sports etc. (mainly skiing), because, after all, when leveraging the body is involved, as with EUC, some of the concepts are typically inter-related across disciplines, in my experience.

That said, please see below.

 

8 hours ago, Planemo said:

I am not saying you are wrong, you have vastly more experience than I do, but I do enjoy physics, and I am struggling to see how your argument stacks up.

 

1 hour ago, RetroThruster said:

I'm sure it's probably already been mentioned somewhere but I wonder if they might someday come up with a "smart mode" or a "custom mode" where pedals go from soft to hard or vice versa depending on speed or maybe even behavior like off roading to street. 

Some wheels I've owned have felt like this FWIW, but it's hard to say what the wheel is actually doing without venturing into the firmware / code.

Like how the tall KS18S had this cock back to it the sharper you hit a turn. Or how with the Z10, you can tune both forward lean response independently of braking response, via the app.

Plus, like I'm usually saying, not every wheel model's mode responses are made alike, even within the same company.

 

41 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

All this makes me figure I need to try the different modes and toes slightly up. I don't have power pads and find myself on tiptoes going up steep hills—definitely reinforces the "wheel is working hard" feeling. When traction is low and the way is bumpy, I can attest to the statement that tiptoes is absolutely not the ideal stance. I do tend to ride on the road in a more heel up fashion alternating heels with turn direction, I find it gives me finer control when going faster than does flat footed. IDK, I might not find having hard/soft choice to be particularly useful, but since they're available I really should experiment.

Yes, experimentation is always good in my eyes, even if all you learn is that modes are irrelevant to you 

I'm a fan of heeling up, but I rarely do it with both feet, as you seem to have found. For the bumpy stuff, I'm trying to maximize my "shock absorption" points with both bent knees and being on the balls of the feet (the term "tiptoes" is a bit misleading) both legs, because when I hit that bump, I want to let the wheel catch air independently of me, and on the landing, I'm spotting the landing reaching out for the wheel pedals one extended foot/leg after the other.

Edited January 18, 2021 by houseofjob

[pico]

15 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

everyone's opinion is a valid one

110%     Respect!

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Yes, in a vacuum, removing the human physics element, there should be no difference in general power, hard mode or soft,

I never brought a vacuum into my argument, but since you mention it, it still wouldn't make any difference.

I think you are conceding to my point, albeit through gritted teeth..

Quote

 

• the natural position of the pedal arm pointing straight down to 6 o'clock is the hardest leverage positioning because gravity is at a maximum. It's much easier when the "hand" / pedal arm is theoretically in a range of 2-4 o'clock or 8-10 o'clock, as you are aided by gravity

Gravity doesn't 'maximise' anywhere as it's a constant at the heights we are talking about. I think you mean leverage. And an EUC would provide maximum leverage at 3 or 9 o'clock, not 2-4 or 8-10.

Quote

Combine the above 2 points with the fact that on hard mode, the harder you press, the harder the wheel fights and presses you back,

It doesn't fight and press you back, it just accelerates.

Quote

the point I was originally trying to make (unsuccessfully) is that, for the same initial range of body lean travel distance, hard mode summons more power

Oooh I think you're just about managing to explain what you meant now, which isn't what you initially said. I think you are now agreeing that both wheels summon the exact same amount of power, it's just that for the soft mode rider it all happens slightly later.

So as I said at the start, hard mode doesn't use any more power for a given acceleration than soft mode. I think you're agreeing with me, although tbh I'm still not sure..

Quote

I'm sure many on here think I'm full of 💩,

Far from it. Without wishing to offend and with all respect, I just think your EUC riding skills far outweigh your physics skills. Or more specifically, your physics explanations

Quote

Yes, experimentation is always good in my eyes, even if all you learn is that modes are irrelevant to you 

I definitely agree on that. I am quite confident that a skilled rider could run rings around most of us whatever mode their wheel was set to

 

[houseofjob]

41 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I never brought a vacuum into my argument, but since you mention it, it still wouldn't make any difference.

I think you are conceding to my point, albeit through gritted teeth..

LOL, EUCs are ridden by human input, so that is always the frame of reference at least I'm coming from, not just the wheel.

I'm not sure we were coming from the same place then.

 

41 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Gravity doesn't 'maximise' anywhere as it's a constant at the heights we are talking about. I think you mean leverage. And an EUC would provide maximum leverage at 3 or 9 o'clock, not 2-4 or 8-10.

LOL, this is semantics. I meant leverage, obviously. 

And I'm sticking to 2-4, 8-10, cuz you don't necessarily have to operate the EUC fully upright  (which I hardly do, always leaning on angles, as I've said many a time before on this forum).

 

41 minutes ago, Planemo said:

It doesn't fight and press you back, it just accelerates.

Hard mode most definitely pushes back equal to as much as you press (relatively speaking), otherwise, the pedals would travel / swing, which is, er, not hard mode.

 

41 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Oooh I think you're just about managing to explain what you meant now, which isn't what you initially said. I think you are now agreeing that both wheels summon the exact same amount of power, it's just that for the soft mode rider it all happens slightly later.

So as I said at the start, hard mode doesn't use any more power for a given acceleration than soft mode. I think you're agreeing with me, although tbh I'm still not sure..

Again, I don't think we were ever really talking about the same exact things here. 

I'm talking about a specific initial lean acceleration (especially from rest) scenario, relative same lean range of motion. You seem to be talking about general power usage vs mode response, no? Yeah, I wasn't really meaning to talk about the latter at all in this point. It's this initial accel, the most often occurring strains of stop-and-go, etc, that are the most taxing power usage for any vehicle, gas or electric. And I'm just saying, this phenomenon on harder tuned modes with same lean travel distance is more taxing than the soft mode equivalent with all other variables the same, that's all.

 

41 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Far from it. Without wishing to offend and with all respect, I just think your EUC riding skills far outweigh your physics skills. Or more specifically, your physics explanations

Oh, I never professed to be a physics expert  

Again, I'm just trying to explain stuff I feel in my riding with the best vocabulary I can. If you have more knowledge in this area, I'm all ears (though I will poke and prod to learn and rationalize, as is my nature )

Edited January 18, 2021 by houseofjob

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, houseofjob said:

everyone’s opinion is a valid one

🥸I thought the saying went more along the lines of “opinions are like armpits... everybody has some. And they all stink”. \🥸

[houseofjob]

26 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

🥸I thought the saying went more along the lines of “opinions are like armpits... everybody has some. And they all stink”. \🥸

My armpits smell lovely, no clue what you're talking about 

[Wgm]

I have very limited motion in my ankle front to back.  Mostly due to CMT.  The MSX was uncomfortable and painful to my feet after long rides because if the hard mode.   K switched to 16x soft mode and there is zero pain.   I am wondering if a Sherman's soft mode would be good for me.  I was hoping the ex.n would be powerful enough to have the low effort soft mode the 16x has.   I know tire size huge.  But really want to find that 18 inch my ankles can handle.

 

[Darrell Wesh]

58 minutes ago, Wgm said:

I have very limited motion in my ankle front to back.  Mostly due to CMT.  The MSX was uncomfortable and painful to my feet after long rides because if the hard mode.   K switched to 16x soft mode and there is zero pain.   I am wondering if a Sherman's soft mode would be good for me.  I was hoping the ex.n would be powerful enough to have the low effort soft mode the 16x has.   I know tire size huge.  But really want to find that 18 inch my ankles can handle.

 

Eh, typically new gotways are tuned very hard and so would be pretty fatiguing on the lower leg musculature. I believe @houseofjobsays the Sherman soft mode is nice(I have a Sherman and tried it and felt like I would fall off the front -so it is pretty soft)

I remember someone here said the V11 also has a nice comfy soft mode? 

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

EUCs are ridden by human input, so that is always the frame of reference at least I'm coming from, not just the wheel.

Oh absolutely, frame of reference is always paramount. I'm just saying that a vacuum makes no difference in our example so I dont know why you mentioned it. And the human input is of course the primary factor.

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I'm not sure we were coming from the same place then.

I think we are at the point where this would only be resolved over a face to face meeting, in a good bar, loaded with copious quantitities of JD and coke and plenty of laughs.

All the best my friend 

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Oh absolutely, frame of reference is always paramount. I'm just saying that a vacuum makes no difference in our example so I dont know why you mentioned it. And the human input is of course the primary factor.

I think we are at the point where this would only be resolved over a face to face meeting, in a good bar, loaded with copious quantitities of JD and coke and plenty of laughs.

All the best my friend 

I give up! and I want my JD and coke  🍻

[Darrell Wesh]

10 hours ago, BlueCrow said:

The pertinent question would be can you get more acceletation with less stability by plantar flexing? I'm sure there are tons of people willing to make the trade-off.

 

Edit: I've got to try dorsiflexing next time I'm on an EUC. Does being forced to stand with both feet parallel and confined to one spot on the pedals make it uncomfortable or impede with the motion of hinging forward?

You would get less acceleration by plantarflexing because you wouldn’t have the stability to hinge forward farther then if your heels were flat on the pedals. In textbook acceleration mechanics you are dorsiflexing the foot in order to have the ankle remain a stable platform for your upper body to hinge/lean forward.

If you lifted your heels up/plantar flexed on hard acceleration, you would not have the same base of stability and therefore would not be able to lean as far forward without losing your balance. It would also be a disaster to hit a bump while both heels are up, you’d certainly crash. 

Most people are aware of the instability of having both heels up, so they only put one heel up and the other foot’s heel is flat on the pedals. This is pointless however because they are now counterbalancing one another as the flat heel down foot is pressing back harder to counterbalance the front heel up foot. You might as well just remain flat for both feet and reap more stability benefits.  

[EUChristian]

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Eh, typically new gotways are tuned very hard and so would be pretty fatiguing on the lower leg musculature. I believe @houseofjobsays the Sherman soft mode is nice(I have a Sherman and tried it and felt like I would fall off the front -so it is pretty soft)

I remember someone here said the V11 also has a nice comfy soft mode? 

Yes sir- you can set pedal sensitivity from 0-100%. I'm going to play around with this thanks to this thread. Cheers mate. 

Please see this thread:

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by EUChristian

[EMA]

good stuff and opinions here but...

i still don't know why you are all convinced about new "harder" GW wheels, honestly it's the opposite to me.

i've ride and love my msp in any modes with almost a flat calibration , i can't do the same on RS or EX due to pedal swing (and i have the updated firmware), riding soft mode feels like faceplant without calibrating them at least +2

imho hard/soft in general depends a lot on different wheel and firmware: soft mode shine on flat road in good conditions, hard performs way better off road.

soft is gentle with riders input (like low psi tire) and feels more comfortable 
hard give you a direct/faster connection to the wheel if you are skilled to take advantage from it

jm2c

Edited January 19, 2021 by EMA

[null]

jm2c too:

Having tried the EX in medium, it is so hard it's difficult to get it to react.
I like both soft and hard for different reasons (as mentioned by EMA), but this didn't feel efficient.

Edited January 19, 2021 by null

[Flying W]

The RS on my firmware (which I think is the original one) does move even on hard. I have it aprox 3 degrees back to keep the light high enough at night. I love how far the head light shines, but it does need to tilted rearward to level out at night. 

I've been using hard mode at night and med during the day. Hard in the dirt and soft if I want to cruise in the day time!

 

[EMA]

2 hours ago, null said:

jm2c too:

Having tried the EX in medium, it is so hard it's difficult to get it to react.
I like both soft and hard for different reasons (as mentioned by EMA), but this didn't feel efficient.

if you have tried the "demo" firmware is possible, updated version is better on all modes. still remain a 38kg wheel that of course don't shine in 0-20kmh range.

1 hour ago, Flying W said:

The RS on my firmware (which I think is the original one) does move even on hard. I have it aprox 3 degrees back to keep the light high enough at night. I love how far the head light shines, but it does need to tilted rearward to level out at night. 

I've been using hard mode at night and med during the day. Hard in the dirt and soft if I want to cruise in the day time!

 

1st batch firmware was not good and deep too much even in hard mode like you said, upgraded version is better.


usually when i get a wheel i try the different modes to find what i like more, than i calibrated the wheel to best fit the mode for me.

Edited January 19, 2021 by EMA

[LanghamP]

On 1/18/2021 at 2:07 PM, Planemo said:

So as I said at the start, hard mode doesn't use any more power for a given acceleration than soft mode. I think you're agreeing with me, although tbh I'm still not sure..

Take a broomstick. Balance it on your hand. Which takes more energy?

1. Rebalancing the broom when it is slightly off vertical?

2. Rebalancing the broom when it is far off vertical?

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Take a broomstick. Balance it on your hand. Which takes more energy?

1. Rebalancing the broom when it is slightly off vertical?

2. Rebalancing the broom when it is far off vertical?

No.2 of course. And yes it would take more power. But in our EUC example, more power would also make the wheel accelerate faster. Faster than the wheel in soft mode...? Not if the soft mode rider is supermanning.

Both wheels will use the same power for the same given acceleration. Doesnt matter whether its in soft or hard mode, torque applied is torque applied. It doesnt matter if you use hard mode and superman, or soft mode and...not so much superman. The issue of accelerating a mass is fixed in physics. The only difference in our example is that the soft mode rider wont need to try as hard.

 

[RagingGrandpa]

21 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Both wheels will use the same power for the same given acceleration. It doesn't matter if you use hard mode and superman, or soft mode and...not so much superman. The issue of accelerating a mass is fixed in physics. The only difference in our example is that the soft mode rider wont need to try as hard.

This!