Hard mode vs. soft mode

[Planemo]

[Split off from the Monster Pro topic]

4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

the initial lean starts off immediately stressing the wheel harder off the bat.

I can't follow this. Surely if a wheel accelerates at X amount of force, it's irrelevant if it's set to 'soft' or 'hard', as the user will just apply what ever lean they want for the required acceleration?

For example, it's perfectly possible to accelerate an MSX extremely slowly on hard mode, it just doesn't require as much lean as soft mode.

I do agree though that hard mode during a constant speed (lets say 40mph) will potentially cause more current spikes (and therefore overlean scenarios) than if on soft mode, as any flexibility in the wheels front/back movement will 'absorb' any minor road imperfections rather than transmit them to the gyro>motor.

Edited January 17, 2021 by meepmeepmayer

[houseofjob]

42 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I can't follow this. Surely if a wheel accelerates at X amount of force, it's irrelevant if it's set to 'soft' or 'hard', as the user will just apply what ever lean they want for the required acceleration?

For example, it's perfectly possible to accelerate an MSX extremely slowly on hard mode, it just doesn't require as much lean as soft mode.

I do agree though that hard mode during a constant speed (lets say 40mph) will potentially cause more current spikes (and therefore overlean scenarios) than if on soft mode, as any flexibility in the wheels front/back movement will 'absorb' any minor road imperfections rather than transmit them to the gyro>motor.

It 100% makes a difference how hard you tune the wheel, hard vs soft (obviously these are very relative terms). These responses ARE adjustments on how much force you tend to apply throughout the range of your lean vs what the wheel responds with output-wise. Take the theoretical extremes as examples: hard mode where the pedals literally don’t move, and soft mode where there is almost no resistance and the pedals swing in a big arc, 3 o’clock to 9 o’clock. In the hard mode scenario, the wheel is matching you force for force, hence the pedals do not move. But very nuanced leans, like small toe leans etc, 0-2mph say, will not register nearly as well from rest as the same nuanced lean in soft mode, where your pedals have little resistance and must travel / swing more, in order to match the same input; because it is not a perfect system, there is a considerable amount more power needed to move the wheel object from rest (overcome the potential energy at rest, friction, all of that) than accel at speed (very little to overcome, momentum is already there). On hard mode, it’s as if you’re starting (arbitrary values here) at 0 (rest) then sudden 10 NM force (first lean), no middle values, as opposed to a soft mode scenario where you spread this out with pedal travel and can utilize much more of that 0-10 NM and beyond. Watch a hard mode rider try to go slow in traffic or do pendulums, it’s much harder on brick wall hard mode, most won’t be able to stay on the wheel without either dismounting or making really jerky movements because the force input scale range is squeezed into such a smaller range of lean motion, less control, more amp spikes than in soft modes.

There is a reason why most early legacy EUCs were only soft / medium modes: because a hard mode would make it much easier to reach overlean cutout on those sub 800W nom motors. 

There is a reason why it took Gotway so many years from their inception to the MSX to make a true brick wall hard mode.

[Darrell Wesh]

38 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

It 100% makes a difference how hard you tune the wheel, hard vs soft (obviously these are very relative terms). These responses ARE adjustments on how much force you tend to apply throughout the range of your lean vs what the wheel responds with output-wise. Take the theoretical extremes as examples: hard mode where the pedals literally don’t move, and soft mode where there is almost no resistance and the pedals swing in a big arc, 3 o’clock to 9 o’clock. In the hard mode scenario, the wheel is matching you force for force, hence the pedals do not move. But very nuanced leans, like small toe leans etc, 0-2mph say, will not register nearly as well from rest as the same nuanced lean in soft mode, where your pedals have little resistance and must travel / swing more, in order to match the same input; because it is not a perfect system, there is a considerable amount more power needed to move the wheel object from rest (overcome the potential energy at rest, friction, all of that) than accel at speed (very little to overcome, momentum is already there). On hard mode, it’s as if you’re starting (arbitrary values here) at 0 (rest) then sudden 10 NM force (first lean), no middle values, as opposed to a soft mode scenario where you spread this out with pedal travel and can utilize much more of that 0-10 NM and beyond. Watch a hard mode rider try to go slow in traffic or do pendulums, it’s much harder on brick wall hard mode, most won’t be able to stay on the wheel without either dismounting or making really jerky movements because the force input scale range is squeezed into such a smaller range of lean motion, less control, more amp spikes than in soft modes.

There is a reason why most early legacy EUCs were only soft / medium modes: because a hard mode would make it much easier to reach overlean cutout on those sub 800W nom motors. 

There is a reason why it took Gotway so many years from their inception to the MSX to make a true brick wall hard mode.

And this is also the reason why hard mode is much faster in acceleration then soft mode. 

[Darrell Wesh]

55 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Watch a hard mode rider try to go slow in traffic or do pendulums, it’s much harder on brick wall hard mode, most won’t be able to stay on the wheel without either dismounting or making really jerky movements because the force input scale range is squeezed into such a smaller range of lean motion, less control, more amp spikes than in soft modes.

So it appears Soft mode enables more finesse but Hard mode requires more finesse.

Soft mode makes it easier to do movements thus enabling more skillful movements. While hard mode requires the user to actually be more skillful because their movements will be jerky unless they have the correct input/angles down to the most minute degree. There is a reason soft mode is labeled for beginners and hard for experienced. 
 

Hard mode is more difficult to use and therefore takes more skill then soft mode. However, with extraordinary users like yourself, a pro soft mode user can exact ultimate manipulation of the wheel and perform more skillful movements that are even more difficult then a hard mode user could ever do. 
 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Darrell Wesh

[houseofjob]

37 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

And this is also the reason why hard mode is much faster in acceleration then soft mode. 

LOL taking my words out of context 

It also matters the rider and the technique. I was just stating the force implications in a vacuum. There are more variables than just the modes (like how a regular straight rider lean is super inefficient at generating force on the pedals, regardless of the mode, and compounded by a hard mode, which presses harder back the more you press).

27 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

So it appears Soft mode enables more finesse but Hard mode requires more finesse.

Soft mode makes it easier to do movements thus enabling more skillful movements. While hard mode requires the user to actually be more skillful because their movements will be jerky unless they have the correct input/angles down to the most minute degree. There is a reason soft mode is labeled for beginners and hard for experienced. 

LOL, sorry, as much as I like your input Darrell and find your points interesting, strong disagree on this point.

This is so easy to prove: just search all the complaints of “pedal dip” on this forum. All newbies usually want hard hard hard and become instant “experts” with brick wall hard mode and super mega pads 🤣🤣 (I believe you’ve lamented this point before). 

Put that same newbie on soft mode, they’re not gonna get far without a lot of instruction.

The labeling of modes “beginner” “intermediate” “expert” are labeled by all those Chinese mom and pop EUC bosses that barely even ride, and ride super basic when they do.

Edited January 17, 2021 by houseofjob

[EUChristian]

Very much enjoying this discussion.  

[Ádám Szitás]

21 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

This is so easy to prove: just search all the complaints of “pedal dip” on this forum. All newbies usually want hard hard hard and become instant “experts” with brick wall hard mode and super mega pads 🤣🤣 (I believe you’ve lamented this point before). 

Put that same newbie on soft mode, they’re not gonna get far without a lot of instruction.

very true, everytime they step on my v11 they say it is in suicide mode and they can't do anything on it  I love watching them struggle with acceleration, braking and hills and cry for pads instead of just using this mode and enjoy all the free power. In the end it doesn't matter, because they will never learn to use it, it is not the "normal" way of how EUCs should work.

I remember when I started riding I did not understand you with your softmode obsession, but I never really had a chance to really get into it, because as you said, wheels these days just don't have this mode, only some softer hardmode. One of the biggest reason of my V11 love is because of the real swinging suicide mode fun  

Edited January 17, 2021 by Ádám Szitás

[houseofjob]

39 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

very true, everytime they step on my v11 they say it is in suicide mode and they can't do anything on it  I love watching them struggle with acceleration, braking and hills and cry for pads instead of just using this mode and enjoy all the free power. In the end it doesn't matter, because they will never learn to use it, it is not the "normal" way of how EUCs should work.

I remember when I started riding I did not understand you with your softmode obsession, but I never really had a chance to really get into it, because as you said, wheels these days just don't have this mode, only some softer hardmode. One of the biggest reason of my V11 love is because of the real swinging suicide mode fun  

(now you've really got me itching to seek out a V11 to try  hope this is a new IM trend for their newer upcoming wheels)

 

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

The labeling of modes “beginner” “intermediate” “expert” are labeled by all those Chinese mom and pop EUC bosses that barely even ride, and ride super basic when they do.

I dunno man, I’d like to think the developers of these products have more knowledge on them then even you! There is definitely a reason they call soft mode “beginner”. 

I think your expertise has made you bias/blind on what the actual modes are really like to a beginner. 

2 hours ago, Ádám Szitás said:

very true, everytime they step on my v11 they say it is in suicide mode and they can't do anything on it  I love watching them struggle with acceleration, braking and hills and cry for pads instead of just using this mode and enjoy all the free power. In the end it doesn't matter, because they will never learn to use it, it is not the "normal" way of how EUCs should work.

 

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

This is so easy to prove: just search all the complaints of “pedal dip” on this forum. All newbies usually want hard hard hard and become instant “experts” with brick wall hard mode and super mega pads 🤣🤣 (I believe you’ve lamented this point before). 

Put that same newbie on soft mode, they’re not gonna get far without a lot of instruction.

This is untrue. Any “newbie” would have just as much difficulty starting out in soft mode as they would in hard mode. It’s just a matter of which one they trained on first. Whichever one became muscle memory and they became comfortable with. No one even tries soft mode so when they do it’s a completely foreign sensation. That has nothing to do with if it’s harder to master/learn. 
 

Start someone off in soft mode and let them ride hard and they’ll be struggling to accelerate and decelerate just the same, crying out that it’s too stiff and there’s no pedal dip to support their body angles. 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Darrell Wesh

[houseofjob]

14 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I dunno man, I’d like to think the developers of these products have more knowledge on them then even you! There is definitely a reason they call soft mode “beginner”. 

I think your expertise has made you bias/blind on what the actual modes are really like to a beginner. 

Agree to disagree then  It's been well confirmed by insiders that many of the EUC company owners (who make these decisions) either don't know how to ride, or just don't ride nearly as often as one would think.

Sounds like you should be saying my "lack of expertise" then 

 

14 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

This is flat out false. Any “newbie” would have just as much difficulty starting out in soft mode as they would in hard mode. It’s just a matter of which one they trained on first.

Start someone off in soft mode and let them ride hard and they’ll be struggling to accelerate and decelerate just the same, crying out that it’s too stiff and there’s no pedal dip to support their body angles. 

Again, agree to disagree. I've trained my share of new riders and have learned to keep them on hard or medium mode, definitely not putting them on a real swingy soft mode.

I myself as a newbie only rode hard until @Tishawn Fahie inadvertently opened my eyes to new possibilities. If I was writing this back in those days (actually, I think some of that is still on these forums from back in '15-'16!) I would probably be saying similar stuff as all you hard mode guys.

Edited January 18, 2021 by houseofjob

[Ádám Szitás]

I think you guys fell right into our trap  

This is why I say that wheels nowadays don't really have soft mode, what you think it is, is really just a less hard mode. if you have a pre2018 gotway wheel or the old kingsong 18s (Unfortunately,I don't have much experience with these older wheels, but I remember a similar feeling on them) or the V11 now, you would feel what soft mode really is and I'm pretty sure if you put a new rider on it they would be so so much more scared than if you put them on hardmode first. It gives the impression of a weak wheel that can't even keep the pedals balanced and feels like you are going to fall in every small acceleration or braking.

I really wish this mode comes back in every new wheel, especially the larger wheels. What is the real reason they stopped developing this? 

All I'm asking for you nonbelievers is, if you get the opportunity to ride these wheels, give it an hour riding like that and you will most likely realize it's true potential.

[Darrell Wesh]

30 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Really, you think the developers of these wheels are as knowledgeable as some of our everyday, multibrand owning, euc enthusiasts?

Uh I don’t see why they wouldn’t be. Just because you can point out a lot of design flaws doesn’t mean you know more then the developer. A lot goes on behind the curtains that you and I don’t understand.
 

As someone who self proclaims they couldn’t even follow our rather elementary conversation on EUC modes, I think you’ve disqualified yourself from even giving this sort of statement. 

[Darrell Wesh]

7 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

pretty sure if you put a new rider on it they would be so so much more scared than if you put them on hardmode first. It gives the impression of a weak wheel that can't even keep the pedals balanced and feels like you are going to fall in every small acceleration or braking.

Even I agreed with @ShanesPlanet on the false premise of this statement; if the rider is new they wouldn’t care what mode they’re in. They aren’t going to feel any more or less scared of hard mode or soft mode. They have no prior experience on what they should be feeling, for all they know soft mode dipping on acceleration is how a high powered top tech EUC should feel.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Darrell Wesh

[Ádám Szitás]

I agree with that, but would you feel safer on a very loose surface, or a very stable surface? I think the answer is obvious.

Would be nice to test it with people who have never stood on an EUC to give them both for a minute and decide what they prefer, but I really don't see why would they ever choose softmode.

[EUChristian]

2 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Even I agreed with @ShanesPlanet on the false premise of this statement; if the rider is new they wouldn’t care what mode they’re in. They aren’t going to feel any more or less scared of hard mode or soft mode. They have no prior experience on what they should be feeling, for all they know soft mode dipping on acceleration is how a high powered top tech EUC should feel. 

I disagree based on my own actual experience learning on the KS-16. I tried learning on soft mode first and switched to hard mode after a day or so and found it much easier to learn. Why? I had no past experience on any wheels...but just as Shane stated soft mode gives you no confidence. It's like the machine might not catch you vs immediate feedback of the machine doing its job. I mean I guess I had to try both and compare so you are partially correct. But I was just learning and it made a measurable increase in my capacity to ride. 

[EUChristian]

3 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

I agree with that, but would you feel safer on a very loose surface, or a very stable surface? I think the answer is obvious.

Would be nice to test it with people who have never stood on an EUC to give them both for a minute and decide what they prefer, but I really don't see why would they ever choose softmode.

I can verify based on experience - to a newbie it feels like a seesaw. Hard mode is obviously easier to learn on. 

I can only speak to the experience on that model of Kingsong. Unsure how that soft mode translates to Gotway wheels of that Era. 

[Darrell Wesh]

3 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

I can verify based on experience - to a newbie it feels like a seesaw. Hard mode is obviously easier to learn on. 

As soon as you switch and compare the modes in the learning phase you invalidate your response from being free of bias.
 

Learn/ride on soft mode for a month and then tell me hard mode is magically easier. I guarantee it won’t happen. 

Switching from one mode to the other while you’re still learning doesn’t prove anything because you never got a chance to be comfortable with one specific mode. 

[Silver]

Coming over from riding a Onewheel I started in soft mode (because that's the mode I rode on the Onewheel). The petals dipping when on turns was a bit scary at first, but once I got a bit more experience and found the point where they stop dipping on turns I was fine. That said I've been told the RS soft mode doesn't count as a soft mode.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Silver

[EUChristian]

11 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

As soon as you switch and compare the modes in the learning phase you invalidate your response from being free of bias.
 

Learn/ride on soft mode for a month and then tell me hard mode is magically easier. I guarantee it won’t happen. 

Switching from one mode to the other while you’re still learning doesn’t prove anything because you never got a chance to be comfortable with one specific mode. 

I think it is absolutely obvious that learning on a more stable surface is easier than leaning on a rocking one and you can call my opinion invalidated all you want to. Yes I tried both while learning how else would you be able to prove it?  How can you claim someone wouldn't notice unless they tried both?

You train someone to ride. Takes them three days in soft mode.  I say they would learn in two days on hard mode.  Prove me wrong. You can't. Because you have no testing baseline. Nor can you make a positive claim without proof, which you do not have. 

So your opinion is invalidated. And look, by me using the word invalidated magically your opinion becomes just that. Magic words!  

If I learned for a month and switched it tells me nothing about the ease to learn in the first place. Of course you are right, no magic happens. But that's not what we are talking about strawman.

Edited January 18, 2021 by EUChristian

[EUChristian]

 

6 minutes ago, Silver said:

Coming over from riding a Onewheel I started in soft mode (because that's the mode I rode on the Onewheel). The petals dipping when on turns was a bit scary at first, but once I got a bit more experience and found the point where they stop dipping on turns I was fine. That said I've been told the RS soft mode doesn't count as a soft mode.

Yes the pedals dipping are scary...and that means more practice to build confidence. 

Edited January 18, 2021 by EUChristian

[Ádám Szitás]

8 minutes ago, Silver said:

Coming over from riding a Onewheel I started in soft mode (because that's the mode I rode on the Onewheel). The petals dipping when on turns was a bit scary at first, but once I got a bit more experience and found the point where they stop dipping on turns I was fine. That said I've been told the RS soft mode doesn't count as a soft mode.

Yeah, most likely I wouldn't even be able to tell the which mode I'm in at the moment, they are both just solid, if it was real softmode you would be swinging around 10 degrees(or more, couldnt really measure) front and back, like you are in a boat in a storm. Also, dipping in turns have nothing to do with the mode, that is a calibration problem, unless you are accelerating or braking in the turn, but then again, its the RS.

[Silver]

7 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

I think it is absolutely obvious that learning on a more stable surface is easier than leaning on a rocking one

I think if you have experience with something analogous like wakeboarding or something else where you are used to cutting in to water or standing on something that rocks while you ride it then you might be more at home with something that responds more to your movement then something stiffer. 

[EUChristian]

Just now, Silver said:

I think if you have experience with something analogous like wakeboarding or something else where you are used to cutting in to water or standing on something that rocks while you ride it then you might be more at home with something that responds more to your movement then something stiffer. 

I agree with you 100% in that case soft mode might be a better fit!

[Silver]

4 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

if it was real softmode you would be swinging around 10 degrees(or more, couldnt really measure) front and back, like you are in a boat in a storm.

Sounds fun, I'll have to try one out when I get the chance

5 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

Also, dipping in turns have nothing to do with the mode, that is a calibration problem, unless you are accelerating or braking in the turn, but then again, its the RS.

Yeah It dips much harder on turns then on acceleration, It's a thing I've heard a lot of people complain about on the first version of the firmware in particular 

[Darrell Wesh]

38 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

I think it is absolutely obvious that learning on a more stable surface is easier than leaning on a rocking one and you can call my opinion invalidated all you want to. Yes I tried both while learning how else would you be able to prove it?  How can you claim someone wouldn't notice unless they tried both?

You train someone to ride. Takes them three days in soft mode.  I say they would learn in two days on hard mode.  Prove me wrong. You can't. Because you have no testing baseline. Nor can you make a positive claim without proof, which you do not have. 

So your opinion is invalidated. And look, by me using the word invalidated magically your opinion becomes just that. Magic words!  

If I learned for a month and switched it tells me nothing about the ease to learn in the first place. Of course you are right, no magic happens. But that's not what we are talking about strawman.

First off, your analogy of learning on a stable surface vs rocking is flawed, as we know that the rocking motion of an EUC soft mode is an aid to your body lean movements. It’s not at all like you’re trying to balance on a boat that’s rocking. 
 

You say you can learn faster in hard mode, but you can’t even prove your theory right. I made no claims to faster learning in a different mode. I merely stated that you would learn just as fast regardless of which mode you used. You’re the one who is now making a claim that can’t ever be proven that you can learn faster in hard mode.

I find it funny that you’re attacking someone who is picking the neutral ground, the burden of proving anything right or wrong lays on YOU as you are the one who is picking a side. 
 

You must be confused-My argument isn’t about which mode is easier to learn on; that was your agenda on pushing which one is easier, if you read my statements you’ll see I’ve been neutral on this. My claim is that switching from soft mode after a month straight to hard mode will cause the rider to struggle and won’t be “obviously easier” as you put it.