Your wheel catches FIRE while charging - what do you do?

[Funky]

18 minutes ago, Robse said:

Oh yes it matters a lot.  If reported known fires = 1 out of 1000 sold (0,1%) , versus 30 out of 30000 (0,1%)  - then the rate of failure (fires) is far better  with the wheels that sold 30000 units because your statistical material rests on a much larger set of data.

I said - i get what you mean..

It also matter that gotway is the company for hard-core riders. That's why they burn the most. Those wheels get the most abuse. And riden the hardest - which may also damage the batteries. (If we think about that now..) Over prolonged time it catches up...

Wheel that is ridden slower. Wheel that doesn't get any alarms on daily bases. Wheel that isn't getting dropped daily. VERSES wheel that is completely opposite.

No need to be a genius, which one will catch on fire first.

 

I wonder how many wheels have burned now..? After they "fixed" the 900Wh packs? That was the problematic ones. (It was the 900Wh packs right? IDK really..) 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Funky

[Robse]

5 minutes ago, Funky said:

No need to be a genius, which one will catch on fire first.  

Good i'm not a genius, i'm just into business-math-stat  where failures and errors equals losses (guess that's not on the menu in China) 

[Funky]

19 minutes ago, Robse said:

Good i'm not a genius, i'm just into business-math-stat  where failures and errors equals losses (guess that's not on the menu in China) 

In China it's all about "savings"

Hex stainless screw cost 2 cents? Regular philips woods screws cost 0.5 cents? Let's go Philips - it doesn't matter that they are wood screws.

 If wheel burns or get damaged. That's a win for them. As customer will need to buy a replacement part..

You say "losses".. I say more business for them..    

Wheel that doesn't get damaged = less profit for them. That's why EUC's are built like SHIT.

God dammit i leaked the secret to success. Duck where is my passport and bug out bag. The China is coming after me NOW..!!! Cat's out of the bag!! 

Edited November 8, 2022 by Funky

[Cerbera]

I was about to leap to Gotway's defence again and point out how all the bolts on my Master are superb, and then I remembered the battery packs, and the obviously incorrect screws used to hold them together !  As you were !

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

It also matter that gotway is the company for hard-core riders.

 

July16 Saturday Night ride good/bad - Kato Begode Master destroyed in crazy crash - Happy Fireworks

Roger EUC

626 subscribers

Jul 18, 2022

 

 

 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

 

July16 Saturday Night ride good/bad - Kato Begode Master destroyed in crazy crash - Happy Fireworks

Roger EUC

626 subscribers

Jul 18, 2022

 

 

 

Riding beeps... As i was saying. Begody should limit their wheels - to be slower than competition. That way there would be no fires and suchs. Because all "hardcore" riders would go to other "faster" wheels.  

He deserves every bit he got. Didn't respect the beeps - eat dirt! Maybe now he learned something. (Sorry if i sound like a Dick. Just tough love baby.)

Edited November 8, 2022 by Funky

[RagingGrandpa]

5 hours ago, Funky said:

I wonder how many wheels have burned now..? After they "fixed" the 900Wh packs?

Only one fire reported sofar with the new LG M50LT 21700 cell. It was the S20 demo, with a BMS protection fault, which was corrected for all production S22's.

No EUC fires from Samsung 21700 cells yet. A good sign.

[mrelwood]

 

13 hours ago, Robse said:

Every single time you see anyone on the tube, it's Gotway, Gotway, Gotway,  Leaperkim,.  and sometimes with luck, a V11 V12 - or a 18S / 16X

I understand that for some people Internet = YouTube, but it really is one of the crappiest sources for these kinds of statistics. For example (unless I’m mistaken):

- The whole country that makes all of our wheels has blocked YT from the general audience. One needs to have the skills to put up a VPN network to access YT.

- One of the biggest EUC countries in the world, Russia, has done the same.

- Uploading videos of yourself for the world to see isn’t globally a thing that people commonly do. It’s even against the cultural values in many countries. Out of the dozens of local riders I’ve met, only two publish EUC videos regularly.

- Most EUC videos seem to be of younger riders, up to like 30-35 or so. Based on the forum polls, the average age for our members was something like 45. Majority of the guys in the videos are in the younger end of the spectrum, and their purchasing habits surely reflect this. Design, durability and comfort are not at the top of the list, it’s all about speed and power. But when you look at riders of the largest age group 40-50, things change, and you no longer aim to compete for the top speed with cars.

- People don’t usually publish videos of them simply driving to work. Or cycling to work. Or riding an EUC to the work. People mostly publish videos of when they do something stupid, or something that might otherwise be interesting. Simply traveling from A to B rarely qualifies. So people who have bought an EUC to be a mode of transport (majority of riders I believe) have no reason to publish videos.

- I don’t think you can see the originating country from a YT video, but based on the language and content you can usually make a pretty solid guess. Does the popularity by country represent the global sales of EUCs? I know for a certain that it does not. Like, at all.

- Check the distributors’ websites for the most sold wheels. Preferably not just for the US. How closely do they represent the popularity of EUC models on YT? I haven’t checked, but I have a strong suspicion that not very closely at all.

 There is a name for the psychological phenomena that describes exactly this kind of a biased view, but I forgot what it’s called.

[Paul A]

27 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

There is a name for the psychological phenomena that describes exactly this kind of a biased view, but I forgot what it’s called.

 

Survivorship bias.

Survivorship bias is a cognitive shortcut that makes you ignore everything that didn’t survive some kind of selection process, focusing instead on only the “winners” in a particular field.

_________________________

 

Classic example is the planes of World War 2.

 

Diagram with red dots depicting damage to fuselage of planes that returned from bombing runs/dog fights.

The diagram is a composite of all diagrams of planes individually.

It would be 'survivorship bias' to make the decision to reinforce the areas of the plane damaged by bullets/enemy fire.

However, by being cognizant of 'survivorship bias', the diagram is actually incredibly valuable.

It depicts that the damaged areas are not critical to the survival of the plane.

Therefore, reinforce the areas that have not been damaged.

This is because, presumably, planes that have been damaged in those areas, did not survive to return, and therefore be represented in the analysis.

 

[Funky]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

I understand that for some people Internet = YouTube, but it really is one of the crappiest sources for these kinds of statistics. For example (unless I’m mistaken):

- The whole country that makes all of our wheels has blocked YT from the general audience. One needs to have the skills to put up a VPN network to access YT.

- One of the biggest EUC countries in the world, Russia, has done the same.

- Uploading videos of yourself for the world to see isn’t globally a thing that people commonly do. It’s even against the cultural values in many countries. Out of the dozens of local riders I’ve met, only two publish EUC videos regularly.

- Most EUC videos seem to be of younger riders, up to like 30-35 or so. Based on the forum polls, the average age for our members was something like 45. Majority of the guys in the videos are in the younger end of the spectrum, and their purchasing habits surely reflect this. Design, durability and comfort are not at the top of the list, it’s all about speed and power. But when you look at riders of the largest age group 40-50, things change, and you no longer aim to compete for the top speed with cars.

- People don’t usually publish videos of them simply driving to work. Or cycling to work. Or riding an EUC to the work. People mostly publish videos of when they do something stupid, or something that might otherwise be interesting. Simply traveling from A to B rarely qualifies. So people who have bought an EUC to be a mode of transport (majority of riders I believe) have no reason to publish videos.

- I don’t think you can see the originating country from a YT video, but based on the language and content you can usually make a pretty solid guess. Does the popularity by country represent the global sales of EUCs? I know for a certain that it does not. Like, at all.

- Check the distributors’ websites for the most sold wheels. Preferably not just for the US. How closely do they represent the popularity of EUC models on YT? I haven’t checked, but I have a strong suspicion that not very closely at all.

 There is a name for the psychological phenomena that describes exactly this kind of a biased view, but I forgot what it’s called.

Words of wisdom.  I can even confirm that. (I have found only less than 5!!! videos of EUC riders from my country.. And those videos was years ago..)

Youtube and real world = not the same.

I have seen only smaller wheels than my 18xl in real world. Tesla v2/v3, v8, ks16s, ks14d and such. (One time i saw 2 shermans and 2 commanders.. riding highway side lane. But that was one time ordeal..)

[EternalEnigma]

On 11/8/2022 at 10:23 AM, Robse said:

A very important detail is missing, and i'm well aware that it will be very difficult to obtain correct data on this, but in order to form a correct overview, there is a lack of information on how many wheels the various manufacturers have sold over time.  Example: If Gotway has sold 100 times as many as IPS, then how about 29 versus 1 wheel up in flames ?   But anyway, good work ( this thread )

In early 2020, Inmotion stated that they have 60% of global EUC market share.

A significant number of those wheels would be V8 series which surprisingly does not have a documented case of 🔥

[elimansour]

Would the following product work?  Does anyone have experience with it?

https://preparedhero.com/products/extra-large-emergency-fire-blanket

[EternalEnigma]

20 minutes ago, elimansour said:

Would the following product work?  Does anyone have experience with it?

https://preparedhero.com/products/extra-large-emergency-fire-blanket

To wrap around yourself, maybe. For the wheel, not a chance.

If you plan to wrap yourself though, you should do a trial run to learn how to run in a burrito.

[mrelwood]

On 11/9/2022 at 9:36 AM, Paul A said:

Survivorship bias.

Close, but I think it was some other bias. Something related to the tubular view of picking up data points only from a narrow set of (familiar) samples. It’s the same that makes Facebook distort one’s world view, since one only sees the behavior and opinions of their own preselected group of people.

 Getting off topic here, I know, it just bugs me that I don’t remember!

[Paul A]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Close, but I think it was some other bias. Something related to the tubular view of picking up data points only from a narrow set of (familiar) samples. It’s the same that makes Facebook distort one’s world view, since one only sees the behavior and opinions of their own preselected group of people.

 

Layman's term might be 'Echo Chamber'.

 

Perhaps the term 'Homophily'?

noun

 Psychology

noun: homophily

1. the tendency for people to seek out or be attracted to those who are similar to themselves.

   "homophily by gender was common in most groups"

    

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_chamber_(media)#Online_communities

Homophily is the tendency of individuals to associate and bond with similar others, as in the proverb "birds of a feather flock together".

The presence of homophily has been detected in a vast array of network studies.

For example, a study conducted by Bakshy et. al. explored the data of 10.1 million Facebook users.

These users identified as either politically liberal, moderate, or conservative, and the vast majority of their friends were found to have a political orientation that was similar to their own.

Facebook algorithms recognize this and selects information with a bias towards this political orientation to showcase in their newsfeed.

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Paul A said:

Layman's term might be 'Echo Chamber'.

Yes! That's it! As an ex sound engineer I really should remember that… 

Homophily sounds like being the required precessor for an echo chamber to form.

[Beenjammin]

I spoke with the fire department regarding this issue after my s18 self combusted in my kitchen. 
What happens is these batteries rupture due to heat or pressure or faulty wiring etc and there is 8 (grams? I forget the unit of measure he used) of gas inside each little battery that makes up the battery packs. They begin to rapidly vent this highly reactive gas and once that occurs they quickly catch fire and it’s like a chain reaction. 
And trust me when I say, it happens FAST. 

I heard something that sounded like water running in my kitchen from my Bedroom and poked my head out the bedroom door right before it ignited and when it lit up it lit UP - like a fireball in my kitchen that I could feel on my face from across the apartment. I ran and grabbed the trash can in my bathroom and (with the garbage still in it) filled up up with water from the shower and threw it on it, dousing the flames. 
The problem with these types of fires though, is that the heat is still there. So the flames reignited seconds after I threw water on it. I threw another bucket onto them but again, I heard it begin to hiss. l managed to get through the front door which was right next to where my wheel sits (will reassess this placement in the future) and ran to get a fire extinguisher. I doused it with that and the powdery retardant seemed to choke out the flames pretty well but i could still see a glow from the lower front portion of the wheel.  By this point 911 told me to close my apt door and leave the building. When the firemen arrived moments later I watched from behind when they opened my apartment door, and the flames had fully reignited again. 

They ended up throwing the device into the shower and soaking it to cool down the packs and avert any more leaks, and consequentially any more explosions. 
 

The head guy that was there told me these fires are really aggressive and hard to control and was he right. I thought I would be able to get ahead of something like this because I’m pretty quick on my feet but this entire situation played out in under 5 minutes. And my house is jacked up now. 

[Paul A]

6 hours ago, Beenjammin said:

(will reassess this placement in the future)

 

6 hours ago, Beenjammin said:

They ended up throwing the device into the shower and soaking it to cool down the packs and avert any more leaks, and consequentially any more explosions. 

 

That might be the storage answer there, especially for apartment dwellers. 

Cut out the intermediary steps.

 

Perhaps store the EUC at night, in the shower cubicle/bath tub with plug inserted, with a fire/welding blanket draped over it.

In the initial stage of ignition, the blanket will help shield access to turn on the taps.

The blanket will also soak up the water to maintain all over fire suppression.  Full surface contact.

 

Eliminate the dangerous, time consuming, intermediate steps. 

Just turn on the taps fully, close door, evacuate.

[Chriull]

4 minutes ago, Paul A said:

That might be the storage answer there, especially for apartment dwellers. 

Cut out the intermediary steps.

...

Eliminate the dangerous, time consuming, intermediate steps. 

+1!

4 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Just turn on the taps fully, close door, evacuate.

 Considering the toxic fumes opening the bathroom door is maybe not the best idea.

But in the gardening department magnetic valves with remote control should be available.

So activating the magnetic valve (filling the bath tub),  starting the exhaust fan and opening the windows could be a safe procedure. Combined with a call to the fire department and an immediate escape once the fumes become too much...

Btw: fail safe operation of the valve should be double and triple checked - not that the wheel gets soaked at the first power failure or voltage glitch...

Ps: plus a smoke alarm in the bath

[Paul A]

In the NYC S22 fire video by Hsiang, the FDNY at the end filled a large container with water and immersed the EUC into it.

Perhaps a 240 litre wheelie bin could be a substitute.

 

 

 

[Funky]

Don't forget if you got "plastic" bath, etc.. The modern design ones.. It could have already melted a hole and turning tap on won't do much. Just flood your house.  

Steel/metal container would be better then. If fire happens while no-one is round, it would be contained. If you are home - simply insert hose.. (The smaller the container - the better. It will fill up "faster". Or have 2-3 buckets prefilled..)

[novazeus]

think a sleeve made out of this blanket would help?

https://www.edarley.com/nomex-safety-blanket/

[Funky]

13 minutes ago, novazeus said:

think a sleeve made out of this blanket would help?

https://www.edarley.com/nomex-safety-blanket/

For what use case? Around your hand while carrying the euc out? Or over euc while it's burning? 

Instructions unclear: dick stuck inside fireproof sleeve and in stove. Feels warm and nice.

 

Most "blankets" will still burn/melt true.. Because battery fire is very, very hot. Also sleeve could simply be "blown" off, as it catches fire.  

Edited December 27, 2022 by Funky

[Paul g]

Thank you mister billionaire @Paul A 😂 , have you checked the price?? 

https://www.thesafetysupplycompany.co.uk/p/9551385/eintac-car-fire-blanket-pro-xl---multi-use---ein-ehv-cfb003.html

 

[Paul A]

Thanks, had no idea.

 

$5244 USD

6 x 8m blanket. 

48 square meters

Around $110 USD per square meter.

 

1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25 square meter blanket.

2.25 x 110 = 247.50 USD

 

If EUC sized blankets were available, at that price, might be worthwhile.

 

It might just be a large, conventional welding blanket...