Your wheel catches FIRE while charging - what do you do?

[Rywokast]

perhaps i am mistaken but i dont recall a single incident ever of an euc actually going up WHILE charging... it seems to always be while riding , no? unless you have damaged it in some way yourself i think the chances are next to zero, but if you crash your wheels on a regular basis thats cause for concern for sure as is any sort of battery defect like not being able to charge.. if either of these are the case i would probably say charge/store outside if you can and check for damage every time if you crash it/monitor the batteries

[Scottie888]

35 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

perhaps i am mistaken but i dont recall a single incident ever of an euc actually going up WHILE charging... it seems to always be while riding , no? 

This thread reminds me of advising passengers to pack parachutes when flying cos some planes do crash which fwiw, is true. If I'm not mistaken, the only account of death by EUC misadventure isn't via combusting batteries but by riding into a bus or rather the other way round in the Ukraine. And yet, people seem to think spontaneous combustion is a daily occurrence likely to happen anytime soon.

Not making light of it at all but IMO, charging EUCs isn't much different than charging phones or cameras or whatever that has li-on on it for that matter. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't BMS have overcharging overcurrent overvoltage protection built in? While I wouldn't leave chargers plugged in 24/7 (more to the effect of battery longevity rather than other), I would be more concerned with cheap aftermrkt fast chargers with faulty protect circuits combusting. That plus opening up the wheel to check that all the t's are crossed & the i's dotted every few hundred miles. I think the chances of a loose power connector causing a short (& perhaps thermal runaway) is far more likely than what's discussed here.

The internet is a great thing but one should be far more concerned of the hyperbole's of occurrences rarer than a white crow. As in most & likely all things, due diligence's a must but when one's thinking of building an outdoor nuclear proof concrete shed specifically for charging batteries, perhaps maybe the issue is one has more money & time on their hands than...🤪. Seems like a self inflicted 1st world problem to me.

But that's me. Luckily I haven't self combusted as yet but hey, that might be coming tonight....joking ofcos. Just saying we should enjoy our toys instead of fretting unnecessarily.

[redsnapper]

euc meltdown is a very low prob event and there are myriad other risks we must ignore to live in this world. but li-on fires are more common than we imagine - many ebike shops hv been reduced to cinders cuz of batt fires and there are many deaths associated with fires started by li-on batts in china ( the same batts in our machines ).  if ur house burns down or god forbid someone is hurt or killed because a batt fire spread that could hv been pretty easily contained (filecab,etc), that would be really Fd up. This DOES happen 

http://jimmymacontwowheels.com/battery-fires-create-concerns-for-every-electric-bike-owner/

- taking reasonable precautions to mitigate worst case outcomes seems like a smart move.  99.99% of those who do nothing to mitigate will do ok but if the barrell spins to the 1 in 10000 loaded chamber, ouch!!! slight mitigation could hv added maybe 100000 more empty chambers. and as christopher walken so aptly illustrated, when playing russian roulette, the more chambers the better!

Edited April 14, 2021 by redsnapper

[Paulo Mesquita]

On 12/3/2020 at 10:16 AM, ShanesPlanet said:

My plan is to get the wheel outside at all costs. If its too damn hot to approach, I'll use a broom. If its too hot for that and I cant breathe, I'll still try and bathe the room in water. Not to put the wheel out, but to prevent my walls and ceiling from burining.. Being near it when it catches, I would hope i can react quickly. Being electrocuted is much less ever a worry of mine, than an explosion or fire. If i kill the power to the house, my well stops. If i was on city water pumps, i'd kill the power and flood the room. I would also empty ALL my fire extinguishers as nearby flammables became in danger.  However, I charge mine next to motor vehicles and a paint closet and undermining my chances at ANYTHING helping much. If it goes badly, Im just going on vacation for a few days....

Yep. My plan too. Mine charge right next to the baking door, so I can grab one and just throw it outside. 

[Paul A]

Would using cheap paving sand, available in 48lb bags be a defense against a self ignition EUC fire?

Perhaps use a table as a storage frame.

Metal legs, remove the table top and replace with a grill.

Bags of sand as the walls, and laid on top of the grill, enclosing the EUC.

If a fire starts, hopefully the bags will burn through, the sand on top and the sides will be released and dump onto the EUC to smother, extinguish and contain.

$4.68 Home Depot

Store outside as toxic smoke will probably not be contained.

 

[RagingGrandpa]

There are some nice demonstrations of sand used to suppress battery fires online.

It helps but isn't great...

Quote

 

 

On 10/22/2021 at 11:09 AM, Paul A said:

Bags of sand as the walls, and laid on top of the grill, enclosing the EUC.

If a fire starts, hopefully the bags will burn through, the sand on top and the sides will be released

Similar ideas using water have been proposed... but it's quite a contraption to create, store, and maintain

 

On 1/11/2021 at 6:14 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

 

On 3/23/2021 at 4:16 PM, Seba said:

Edited October 23, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[Rawnei]

There exists fire extinguishers for Lithium Batteries, I bought the N-Ext from BatterySafetySolutions that I keep at home.

https://www.elfa.nl/en/news/veilig-werken-met-lithium-ion/

 

[Paul A]

So many things to go wrong.

For use of a fire extinguisher.

Need to be aware of the fire from the onset and react quick enough to fight the fire before it spreads to surrounding materials.

The video test is on a concrete floor, no flammable surroundings.

Open space for ventilation of toxic smoke that blows away.

The person is fully dressed in heavy, thick, clothing/gloves/boots that provides protection from intense radiant heat, exploding projectiles.

In the confined space of a typical room in a house, the consumption of oxygen by the intense fire is another hazard as well as the extreme toxic smoke inhalation threat.

Smoke inhalation as cause of death in house fires is the most likely.

 

Letting it burn outside, away from other materials, well ventilated, seems to be the best option.

No point in trying to save the wheel.

[Rawnei]

Just now, Paul A said:

Letting it burn outside, away from other materials, well ventilated, seems to be the best option.

No point in trying to save the wheel.

Kind of hard if you live in an apartment a few floors up.

[Paul A]

Yes, in an apartment, incredible hazard, not sure what the answer is...

Will continue to research and see if anything comes up.

[The Brahan Seer]

If you are really worried about it a Fire-Proof storage cabinet placed on a trolley might be a solution. Cabinets can be rated for up to 90minutes. They can also detect and inform you of fire breakout. Here is a link to a company that specialises in Lithium Fire Cabinets but they are not cheap.. https://www.denios.co.uk/shop/hazardous-material-storage/chemical-safety-cabinets/lithium-ion-cabinets/

I'm sure you could use a standard 90min rated cabinet that is a lot cheaper. Or not worry too much about it. I think the risk is very low. I only charge when I am at home and awake. Wheel is near smoke detector too. Maybe have a plan of exactly what you would do if it did happen and you caught it early enough too. Fire action plan.

[RockyTop]

Disclaimer: I am not a fire expert. The following is my opinion. 

The batteries burn hot and fast. The main goal is to keep the fire from finding more stuff to burn. 

I suspect that four lawyers of 1/2 Drywall would stop the spread of a wheel fire. Drywall is inexpensive and easy to work with. 
 

Tips:

1) finish each layer with tape and mud. It doesn’t need to look good. It just needs to seal flames from getting out. 

2) You need a vent that vents to a safe location. The vent allows for expansion without explosion. 
 

3) A closet with a vent and a 2hr fire rated door and frame work well for this project. You can add 3 layers of drywall to the one existing layer without anything looking out of place. When you sell your house, it is just a closet with a secret. …. Add a layer of sheet metal between the last two layers with a security door, you have a gun safe or safe room.

Edited October 22, 2021 by RockyTop

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Kind of hard if you live in an apartment a few floors up.

"What can you do if an EUC fire starts in your upstairs apartment or hotel room (while you're there)?"

Disclaimer: I am not a fire expert. The following is my opinion. 

My ideas, in order of preference, are:

1. Move the EUC to an outdoor patio (if there is one).
   Shut the patio door to prevent burning debris from re-entering the interior.
   Moving a burning EUC is difficult. Thick leather gloves (fire gloves) help. You could also wrap the burning EUC in a carpet rug (or door mat, or fire blanket, etc) and drag it. You could even push it onto the rug using a broom, chair, etc to avoid contact with flames.
   Pull the alarm, as you do not know how the fire may spread. Leave.
    
2. Move the EUC into the bathtub or shower, turn on the shower water, and leave.
   A fiberglass tub or shower can become fuel for the fire, so be sure to turn on the water, otherwise this approach was for nothing.
   You should not "stay and fight the fire" - the smoke is deadly.
   Pull the alarm, as you will need firefighters with breathing equipment to re-enter your apartment, even if the fire goes out.

Last thought:
Move the EUC into the hallway outside the apartment.
Hallways are normally 'clear' and don't have flammable furniture spread around, and therefore the risk of a building fire is reduced.
You may reduce the risk of a structure fire; but you're also increasing exposure to other people living near the hallway. Not great.

All 3 start with "move the EUC," because we assume the EUC started in a location near flammable furniture or structure.
It would be better to have stored it in a closed metal cabinet to begin with, so that if the EUC catches fire it could burn itself out without spreading. The contents of the room will be destroyed by smoke, but the building will stand.
Ideas for EUC storage cabinets are discussed at length below
https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/12959-fireproof-euc-charging-station/?page=3

 

3 hours ago, Rawnei said:

There exists fire extinguishers for Lithium Batteries, I bought the N-Ext from BatterySafetySolutions that I keep at home.

The aqueous-agent extinguishers are great if you can spray them directly on the cells (cooling effect). But the cells in our EUC's are contained under many layers of other things, which will make it impossible to spray the cells directly until the fire has become so violent as to blow open the EUC.

If in an apartment, so much smoke will be released before the EUC blows open that the room will not be safe to occupy. Don't fight the fire in a poison room; you must leave.

If in a well-ventilated area, sounds useful if applied smartly.

 

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[Rich Sam]

**Disclaimer**  I am not a professional fireman, though was on a handful fire details in the military.  Not a complete newb.

My plan that I have had for some time now is to get a thick wool welding blanket to cover my wheel while charging or in my house\garage.

I ride a veteran sherman which has those nice metal bar handles and I have a 4.5 foot hooked crow bar next to it on the wall.  If the poop ever hit the proverbial fan my hopes are the blanket will help just long enough for me to hook the bar and quickly drag outside before fire and smoke damage becomes too great.

The black smoke that emit from a battery fire is not only carcinogenic, but in some instances can cause more damage than the fire itself.  Good luck getting that smell out of your house!  Folks that this has happened to know what I mean!

Risk is great because the batteries can explode... But I could not risk the house!

 

[Paul A]

Video showing 13 seconds of an electric scooter fire, time mark 1.03.

The amount of smoke and intensity of the shooting flames is incredible.

Would not be able to fight a fire like that inside a house.

The video uploader was recounting his story of his burning Nikola.  He found burnt out batteries about 30 meters away.

 

[RockyTop]

Keep in mind that once the plastic starts melting moving the EUC while it is on fire is like moving multiple large intense acetylene torches pointed in random directions while over sized fire cracks fly out of it in random directions rolling under object and setting things on fire without you even realizing it. ………. not a guesstimate 

[RagingGrandpa]

Pack fires intensify until they stop... if you can recognize the problem (odor, smoke, and first sparks) early, before it gets intense, you often have a practical opportunity to act.

  

On 6/22/2021 at 7:54 PM, Paulo Mesquita said:

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[RockyTop]

9 minutes ago, Paul A said:

.He found burnt out batteries about 30 meters away.

Yep!! Me too. They fly everywhere. 

I think a fire blanket would work best. It doesn’t last long. You just have to weather the storm and make sure nothing else catches on fire….. and look in all directions. The batteries fly everywhere. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by RockyTop

[conecones]

For people living in apartments/condos the safest place to charge is by the balcony door or in the washroom. I always charge my wheels in the washroom because 1) I ride to work in all weather and need an easy to clean place for it to dry off, 2) If it starts smoking, I can toss it into the tub, turn on the water and shut the door. Washrooms are almost always ventilated and built using fire-resistant material such as tile so you can put a wet towel under the door and effectively seal off the damage to this one room.

Charging in the living room/bedroom especially while unattended is risky.

[The Brahan Seer]

Since the consensus is to move the wheel outside. I'm seriously thinking about one of these to place my wheel on with a stand. Makes life easier, quicker and safer if the worst happened.

[Mayhem]

new product designed specifically for euc fire prevention in your home. Allowing you to move the hazard outside. 
 

https://youtu.be/PHMOPxQFBIo

 

If your looking for a lithium battery suppressing agent cellblock ex is an option. 

 

https://youtu.be/Cgt5VNvoAao

Edited October 22, 2021 by Mayhem

[Spaghetteh]

4 hours ago, Mayhem said:

new product designed specifically for euc fire prevention in your home. Allowing you to move the hazard outside. 

I just found out about this myself (from WrongWay's collaboration video with GingerOnWheels released today) and came here to link it but you beat me to it 

Despite the product being announced relatively recently I'm surprised it's taken me this long to hear about it. They look like they're exactly what a lot of us on this thread and forum have been looking for. They're up there in cost IMO but if it significantly mitigates damage in the worst case scenario then I'm willing to pay for that peace-of-mind. The thought of one of my wheels catching fire while I'm away and my dog is still home gives me nightmares. Something like this paired with a wifi-connected smoke detector would make me feel a lot better.

[Paul A]

Firesak video.

A farmer came out of nowhere and requested they leave?  This is the reason that filming was not shown?  

If the bag after two hours was still too hot to touch, how did they move it into the car?

The video was not continuous of the fire from start, during, end.  Hardly convincing evidence.

It was claimed one battery pack not an EUC in the bag.  Cannot verify what was actually in the bag.

A safety product produced by a DIY amateur on YouTube.  What qualifications, expertise does this person have?  What independent testing, certifications, standards have been applied?

Is this credible?

This person producing a product for an incredibly dangerous EUC fire needs to consider his product and public liability.

[Tawpie]

2 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Is this credible?

I've met and ridden with gingeronwheels, he's legit (and local and active on all sorts of PEVs, we see his face a lot). I trust him, he's not the type that would fake something like this.

Is firesak the best possible solution? @Seba's box is probably better because it'll flood the wheel with water, but that cost 1200 euros and who knows how much time to create. It's a gorgeous piece of craftpersonship. But for a relatively inexpensive way to reduce the chance that the fire spreads to your structure (which gives you more time to get everyone out of the building), the firesac looks to be a reasonable approach to me. He does need to fix the zipper.

[Paul A]

Cellblock video.

Three batteries with 11.1 wh.

EUCs contain much more batteries/wh.

 

Some solutions are still dependant on a person being present, detecting the fire early, and acting quickly before it escalates to the point where it is beyond their capabilities to do much effectively.

The volume of toxic smoke is lethal.

 

Tests outdoors, persons in protective equipment, controlled experiments....may not be the likely scenario in a typical real world at home.