KS16X stopped balancing at 40km/h

[EUC Endurist]

50 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

I think is just you triger short overlean and you panic when you pedal drop/dip/flick and  this results to high speed voble and jump out of 16x. 

if you mean the alarm like tilt up from the pedals, which force you to slow down, it was never there.

It was not there as there was no beep or no "please decelerate" 

Im used to the wheel and its speed limits, i drove many km at 50kmh, there was no friggin alarm - pedals and wheel went soft as theyre when the motor is out

[Chriull]

4 minutes ago, EUC Endurist said:

no bluetooth patch added I guess, KS wrote that FW updates are now possible over Darknessbot and therefore i thought thats all i need^^

I'm not up to date with KS16X and the bluetooth patch. Afaik it can not be applied like normal firmware updates but has to be applied with and bluetooth stick while wheel startup.

I strongly assume with the new(est) KS16X this should be already with every delivered wheel...

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, EUC Endurist said:

thanks for the input, im looking forward to speak to the retailer 

If you had the whole log then someone could say what happened. I suspect your retailer will just quietly point out that you're relatively inexperienced (as am I), that you're on a high powered wheel and that accidents do unfortunately happen on EUC's. Have you shown us a photo of the damage yet? you'll probably find it's quite easy to repair. If I was you I'd put it down to experience then just gear up a bit more and ride a little slower. The 16X is a great wheel but it isn't the best if you're fairly heavy and want to ride at 50km/h.

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

If you overpower it very fast at higher speed, there is no "please decelerate", no 3rd Alarm, no 5 beeps because of overpower 88%, no soft tiltback....just the soft pedal that dips forward. I had it sometimes if I'm at 45-48 km/h on bumps or if I push it to quick and to aggressive. I know it's scary if you have it the first times and probably @DjPanJanis right. 

Even if there is an audible alarm, I've never heard it at 40km/h+. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by buell47

[EUC Endurist]

5 minutes ago, buell47 said:

If you overpower it very fast at higher speed, there is no "please decelerate", no Alarm, no soft tiltback....just the soft pedal that dips forward. I had it sometimes if I'm at 45-48 km/h on bumps or if I push it to quick and to aggressive. I know it's scary if you have it the first times and probably @DjPanJanis right. 

the ride shows 2800 max power consumption and I rode and accelerated with heavier equipment and it alway worked fine. 

is it possible to overpower it with 2800w ? i had way more in the logs..

 

when you say " the soft pedal that dips forward" how far dips it normally forward in your case? does it go backwards too in a high angle? 

thanks for you input 

[EUC Endurist]

22 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

If you had the whole log then someone could say what happened. I suspect your retailer will just quietly point out that you're relatively inexperienced (as am I), that you're on a high powered wheel and that accidents do unfortunately happen on EUC's. Have you shown us a photo of the damage yet? you'll probably find it's quite easy to repair. If I was you I'd put it down to experience then just gear up a bit more and ride a little slower. The 16X is a great wheel but it isn't the best if you're fairly heavy and want to ride at 50km/h.

I´d like to state that I really don´t think that it was too much for the wheel - the ampere and power datas were not nearly that high than on other rides.. 

please do not think that I fell down and try to blame the wheel - I fell down because the wheel stopped working - nobody whos saying that I was so scared that i jumped off could have ridden this wheel, i stayed a few meters and definitely checked that there where no functions like accelerating or breaking the pedals were complete loose over short distance, it wasnt able to balance

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

What is the logging frequency? 

Maybe the overpower was to short and was not logged? 

It dips forward because there was no more power available. But when I ride fast offroad I'm in a extreme crouched position and pressing with my feets, not leaning much forwards and my body is more at the center over the wheel. This gives me the ability to react very fast. Until now, no faceplant. 

No backwards tilt after overpowering, just back to level. 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by buell47

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, EUC Endurist said:

It was definitely a malfunction that MUST NOT happen. If theyre limiting the speed or power about 10% lower this problem wouldnt be there. Its careless from Kingsong if its true that my device shutoff because of a power overload. I was 90kg with full eq and 60% battery. This device was praisen on as top device to this date, including the price its very strange that this can happen.

I understand what you mean, but when you buy a car and youre randomly 1 in 10000, to you take the technical defect as it is and say "you must be able to take a crash?"

money is most likely gone and much worse shit could have happened? you must be able to take a fall is a good point, but in this case its a little bit cringy..

Well any speed above 20kmh is classed as unsafe. It means the further you go above this the more you should gear up. 

Any EUC can malfunction at any point. This is the problem when new riders join and rides at these higher speeds. You feel safe but something happens and gone is the safety. 

I fully understand your point that it shouldn't happen. Yet it does. You will see many posts here on the forum about accidents. Some out of the blue, some is expected to happen.

I used to ride at 40-45kmh in my KS18L. But I too learned the hard way that speed makes your options much less the fast you ride. So these days I ride at 30-35kmh. Braking + reaction distance is so much shorter. 

I am about 90kg geared up. And I ride mostly in full mc suit with lvl2 3D0 pads on all zones except chest. Most of the time if going 25+kmh I use my TSG Pass full face helmet. 

Some might think it is overkill. But when I go down (not if) I tend to go down hard. I am heavier and less flexible than when I were 25. It is just life and I accepted it. 

I hope you recover fast and you get back on a wheel again. 

The biggest issue with KS16X is that it feels very torquey so you tend to forget it isn't build for top speed and that you hit that top speed fast. Yes there are a few other things too. But this one you need to understand as a rider or you get into trouble very fast. This is where experience come into play. It took me about 3000ish km to get this as a natural subconscious body reaction.

I do at times get caught by surprise but now I seem to be able to ride it off. How I don't know. Like sliding sideways like 25-40cm in a 90 degree turn on wet asphalt. This got my heart pumping big time. Or hitting tree roots crack 3 times on an incline (maybe 5-7%) while accelerating from 20kmh to 30kmh. Wheel bounced and started beeping due to overpowering.

I hope that this help you back on a wheel.

[Unventor]

11 minutes ago, EUC Endurist said:

I´d like to state that I really don´t think that it was too much for the wheel - the ampere and power datas were not nearly that high than on other rides.. 

please do not think that I fell down and try to blame the wheel - I fell down because the wheel stopped working - nobody whos saying that I was so scared that i jumped off could have ridden this wheel, i stayed a few meters and definitely checked that there where no functions like accelerating or breaking the pedals were complete loose over short distance, it wasnt able to balance

If you are travelling at 40kmh then you are going just about 11 m/s. So 3m is about 1/4 to 1/3 of a second.

When things go bad, perception of time becomes a bit "funny". 

[EUC Endurist]

4 minutes ago, buell47 said:

What is the logging frequency? 

Maybe the overpower was to short and was not logged? 

It dips forward because there was no more power available. But when I ride fast offroad I'm in a extreme crouched position and pressing with my feets, not leaning much forwards and my body is more at the center over the wheel. This gives me the ability to react very fast. Until now, no faceplant. 

No backwards tilt after overpowering, just back to level. 

 

i dont know the specs of darknessbot but when i remember right i turned the wheel off after the crash, so the logger should have still worked? 

when you overpower does the wheel completely ignore your moves? 

you can check out my few videos on youtube if you want, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtc38XghokV6CB1jHzG4toA

as I said, I drove grocery shopping with minimum eq

 

[Chriull]

17 minutes ago, EUC Endurist said:

the ride shows 2800 max power consumption and I rode and accelerated with heavier equipment and it alway worked fine. 

Overleaning/"overpowering" has no (direct) relation with the power numbers. Looking at a max power graph over speed for a bldc motor like 

(from https://www.edn.com/brushless-dc-motors-part-i-construction-and-operating-principles/ - first hit in google, no idea what is writen there )

One sees that at half of (maximum) no load speed the maximum power can be reached and before and after it drops quite fast.

Important is the blue line - if one leans forward to accelerate one creates a torque that the wheel needs to counter to keep one upright. Overcoming inclines/bumps/potholes/etc also needs torque. If needed torque is above the blue line one overleans... And as seen in the graph maximum available torque decreases with speed.

[EUC Endurist]

6 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well any speed above 20kmh is classed as unsafe. It means the further you go above this the more you should gear up. 

Any EUC can malfunction at any point. This is the problem when new riders join and rides at these higher speeds. You feel safe but something happens and gone is the safety. 

I fully understand your point that it shouldn't happen. Yet it does. You will see many posts here on the forum about accidents. Some out of the blue, some is expected to happen.

I used to ride at 40-45kmh in my KS18L. But I too learned the hard way that speed makes your options much less the fast you ride. So these days I ride at 30-35kmh. Braking + reaction distance is so much shorter. 

I am about 90kg geared up. And I ride mostly in full mc suit with lvl2 3D0 pads on all zones except chest. Most of the time if going 25+kmh I use my TSG Pass full face helmet. 

Some might think it is overkill. But when I go down (not if) I tend to go down hard. I am heavier and less flexible than when I were 25. It is just life and I accepted it. 

I hope you recover fast and you get back on a wheel again. 

The biggest issue with KS16X is that it feels very torquey so you tend to forget it isn't build for top speed and that you hit that top speed fast. Yes there are a few other things too. But this one you need to understand as a rider or you get into trouble very fast. This is where experience come into play. It took me about 3000ish km to get this as a natural subconscious body reaction.

I do at times get caught by surprise but now I seem to be able to ride it off. How I don't know. Like sliding sideways like 25-40cm in a 90 degree turn on wet asphalt. This got my heart pumping big time. Or hitting tree roots crack 3 times on an incline (maybe 5-7%) while accelerating from 20kmh to 30kmh. Wheel bounced and started beeping due to overpowering.

I hope that this help you back on a wheel.

wow thanks for that answer, the fear after a crash can be immense.

Im used to crash, i crash my life long in all sports you can imagine. 

as far as I have read it seems the problem is that the wheel may overpower at some higher speed (it can definitely ride according to the manufacturer) without alert or anything like that. wouldnt it be easy  for KS to cut down the software limits a little bit more and gain max safety? fuck on 5 kmh when its the risk of overpowering and losing control.

what happened to me was strange, not as described by others, I am 100% sure that I went a very wide angle with the pedals from at first forth and then backwards.to better describe it; after the "overpower moment" my shoes went from standing on a steep hill downwards to standing on a very steep hill upwards.

as i realized it didn´t react on breaking and the pedals didnt grip anymore I jumped off. 

When its all to manually set the speed limits to 40kmh than I will do it and I will trust the setting. I hope they give me a new KS16 or my money back ;D

[Michael Tucker]

There is some debate as to the difference between FW 1.07 and FW 2.02. I personally have found there to be a much greater feeling of power and stability in FW 2.02 compared to all previous FW for the KS16X. There has been reports of different versions of boards reacting differently to FW changes. KingSong has given no official statements as to the correct pairing of certain boards with certain FW. Some people have reported that the most up-to-date FW actually does not work well with older version boards. 

The KS16X has been a high speed cut-out risk even before it was released to the public. @Kuji Rolls showed a prototype wheel with early FW cut-out at high speed on camera. There have been many reports of mid to high speed cut-outs by many riders of the KS16X, both beginners and advanced. Some people debate that there is a difference between over-leaning (rider error) and the wheel losing power enough to not maintain level pedals (design error). I personally believe that the FW is at the heart of the matter for the KS16X and although the build quality is high, the wheel does present a continued risk for high speed cut-out. No matter if you blame the rider or the design, the chances of a rider experiencing a fall at mid to high speed on the KS16X are higher than I find acceptable for a wheel in this category of weight and power.

KingSong is the brand you choose if you want a safer and more reliable riding experience and the KS18L/XL delivered that wonderfully. The KS16X is more fun than the KS18XL, but the sacrifice to safety has done KingSong a disservice and harmed this great reputation. I HOPE KingSong delivers an amazing, safe and reliable experience with the S18 and moves on with lessons learned from the KS16X saga.

[EUC Endurist]

12 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Overleaning/"overpowering" has no (direct) relation with the power numbers. Looking at a max power graph over speed for a bldc motor like 

(from https://www.edn.com/brushless-dc-motors-part-i-construction-and-operating-principles/ - first hit in google, no idea what is writen there )

One sees that at half of (maximum) no load speed the maximum power can be reached and before and after it drops quite fast.

Important is the blue line - if one leans forward to accelerate one creates a torque that the wheel needs to counter to keep one upright. Overcoming inclines/bumps/potholes/etc also needs torque. If needed torque is above the blue line one overleans... And as seen in the graph maximum available torque decreases with speed.

when you say "no load speed" does this mean I hold the wheel and lean it forward? i think many of them reach 80-100kmh according to the apps?

would be interesting which unit of measurement they did use for the speed axis. 

 

[EUC Endurist]

2 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

and the wheel losing power enough to not maintain level pedals (design error)

have you heard of something before?

 

I HOPE KingSong delivers an amazing, safe and reliable experience with the S18 and moves on with lessons learned from the KS16X saga.

i thought I´d buy the well proven product but yeah ;D

[Chriull]

36 minutes ago, EUC Endurist said:

when you say "no load speed" does this mean I hold the wheel and lean it forward?

Yes. Exactly.

Quote

i think many of them reach 80-100kmh according to the apps?

This speed varies directly with battery voltage! Your wheel reaches  ~66km/h (1) at 84V lift cut off speed. But this no load speed will go down to 66/84*63 = 50 km/h at 63V! (63V =3.15*20 ~ 0% charge)

At 50% charge (84+63)/2=73.5V lift cut off speed is 57 km/h.

Quote

would be interesting which unit of measurement they did use for the speed axis. 

 

Does not matter - just put the 50-66km/h, depending on your actual (no load) battery voltage and "use" the graph.

(1) 

- just found this again - hope numbers are right. 

[EUC Endurist]

9 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Yes. Exactly.

This speed varies directly with battery voltage! Your wheel reaches  ~66km/h (1) at 84V lift cut off speed. But this no load speed will go down to 66/84*63 = 50 km/h at 63V! (63V =3.15*20 ~ 0% charge)

At 50% charge (84+63)/2=73.5V lift cut off speed is 57 km/h.

Does not matter - just put the 50-66km/h, depending on your actual (no load) battery voltage and "use" the graph.

(1) 

- just found this again - hope numbers are right. 

hey thank you very much for the post and explaing the graph, i thought that they took a much max speed in this one and therefore the torque lost maybe wouldnt be that bad. 

I believe that this guy had the exact same situation.

please dont tell people they fell because of lacking skill, it´s definitely unnecessary @DjPanJan

maybe the wheels were from the same batch? I remember that the date on a pedal or a sticker didnt fit the date in the software but one of the dates was 2019 and the other 2020.

[EUC Endurist]

16 minutes ago, Chriull said:

At 50% charge (84+63)/2=73.5V lift cut off speed is 57 km/h.

This was 100% not the cause in this case.

thanks for your help

Edited June 14, 2020 by EUC Endurist

[Chriull]

9 minutes ago, EUC Endurist said:

I believe that this guy had the exact same situation.

please dont tell people they fell because of lacking skill, it´s definitely unnecessary @DjPanJan

There was afair such a case logged - and definitely nowhere near the overlean limit. So i "saved" you from the physics of an EUC overlean (until you came up with the power numbers )

@DjPanJan one had a real overlean logged - which he fortionately managed to balance out.

So overleans with KS16X are definizely possible at around below 40 km/h.

Many people coming here have no idea of the concept behind overleaning - but your description clearly speaks against a "normal" overlean.

 

[Tazarinho]

There have been a fair amount of crashes when the 16X was released. This led to sellers urging a firmware update from 1.05 to 1.07. While the firmware probably helps, to me  the 16X is simply not a 50 km/h wheel; nor even a 45 km/h wheel for a heavier rider (like me). It simply doesn't have enough margin. 

[Ben Kim]

Couple of questions:

Does the wheel still work after the cutout?

How much do you weigh? 

 

[EUC Endurist]

5 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

Couple of questions:

Does the wheel still work after the cutout?

How much do you weigh? 

 

90kg at the time of accident

yes i could start it.

[Tryptych]

On 6/14/2020 at 10:11 AM, EUC Endurist said:

It was definitely a malfunction that MUST NOT happen. If theyre limiting the speed or power about 10% lower this problem wouldnt be there. Its careless from Kingsong if its true that my device shutoff because of a power overload.ppened? you must be able to take a fall is a good point, but in this case its a little bit cringy..

I think everyone can stop trying to blame the rider and accept the obvious: the only one at fault is KingSong.

I'm pissed at how many 16X problems I'm hearing. Where the hell is KS on the forums? Obviously they don't stand by their product. KingSong should be taking initiative to reach out to this guy to help him troubleshoot his wheel of death.

PS : (1) all wheels should have better logging and troubleshooting features to protect this entire industry before someone dies and governments start making these 50km devices illegal. (2) all wheels should be capped at a safe speed where there is much less chance of a cutout due to lack of power.

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by Tryptych

[mike_bike_kite]

7 minutes ago, Tryptych said:

I think everyone can stop trying to blame the rider and accept the obvious: the only one at fault is KingSong.

I used to belong to a lot of motorcycle forums. Every accident that got reported was blamed on either another driver or bad road conditions and occasionally some strange mechanical failure on the bike. You could count on one hand the number that said they were simply going to fast or just weren't paying enough attention.

I do agree with you though that there should be logging on accidents. 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

16 minutes ago, Tryptych said:

KingSong should be taking initiative to reach out to this guy to help him troubleshoot his wheel of death.

Not KingSong, but the Dealer should. 

If I have problems with my BMW, I go to the dealer and not blaming BMW AG in Munich why they are not calling me to solve my problem. 

They are also not on the bimmer forum and waiting for my post.