Unventor Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 6 minutes ago, buell47 said: Not KingSong, but the Dealer should. If I have problems with my BMW, I go to the dealer and not blaming BMW AG in Munich why they are not calling me to solve my problem. They are also not on the bimmer forum and waiting for my post. 200% agree with you. Just as I heard my KS16X is ready to ship back to me after being serviced a 2nd time. I am glad I bought it from the dealer I chose. I just hope he get reimbursed from KS. Both 2 service he done has been under warranty. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 16 minutes ago, buell47 said: Not KingSong, but the Dealer should. If I have problems with my BMW, I go to the dealer and not blaming BMW AG in Munich why they are not calling me to solve my problem. They are also not on the bimmer forum and waiting for my post. the dealers should at least give recommendations for safe riding speeds .. when i buy a wheel and talk over the high maximum speed I want to hear exactly that dangerous shit, not yeah its one of the fastest out there. -.- 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 15, 2020 Author Share Posted June 15, 2020 20 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said: I used to belong to a lot of motorcycle forums. Every accident that got reported was blamed on either another driver or bad road conditions and occasionally some strange mechanical failure on the bike. You could count on one hand the number that said they were simply going to fast or just weren't paying enough attention. I do agree with you though that there should be logging on accidents. i just say, i rode the 16x in way worse street conditions and generally have a good feeling on it. It was even wonderfull city bike track asphalt, it shouldnt be possible to overpower under the max speed within the weight range. thats all i say. Its clear that it overpowered and didnt gain hold to break again. Its not the first time this happened with this series. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryptych Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, buell47 said: Not KingSong, but the Dealer should. If I have problems with my BMW, I go to the dealer and not blaming BMW AG in Munich why they are not calling me to solve my problem. The dealer has nothing to do with KingSong making a defective product. It is BMW (or Volvo or Ford) that initiates global recalls when they identify a fault in their design, not the dealer. When a Tesla kills someone the responsibility is on Tesla to investigate, not the dealer. etc etc etc. It is my opinion that KingSong (and InMotion and Gotway) should be keeping an eye on major forums like this one, and stand behind their product and investigate serious incidents like this before someone dies, not after. Anything less is greedy and cowardly. It may be naive but that's my opinion. Edited June 16, 2020 by Tryptych 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_bike_kite Posted June 16, 2020 Share Posted June 16, 2020 14 hours ago, EUC Endurist said: it shouldnt be possible to overpower under the max speed within the weight range. thats all i say. Its clear that it overpowered and didnt gain hold to break again. Most of the performance numbers given for an EUC are with a standard size Asian rider (70Kg). The max speed speed will be the max speed with such a rider on 100% battery. I'm not even sure whether they just calculate that speed or they actually tell their test rider to keep going faster until the wheel quits out (I suspect the former). If you weigh considerably more than 70kg and try riding at 30mph on a depleted battery then you're going to have problems. My own wheel has a posted top speed of 24mph but, because I weigh 96kg, I manually changed the top speed setting to 20mph. If my battery is depleted then I ride even slower. All wheels tend to have a tilt back function which will try to tilt you back as you approach the limits. Unfortunately, if you're accelerating fast (and the 16X accelerates very fast), then the wheel won't have enough power to get in front of you in order to tilt you back. The wheel will then cut out... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said: Most of the performance numbers given for an EUC are with a standard size Asian rider (70Kg). The max speed speed will be the max speed with such a rider on 100% battery. I'm not even sure whether they just calculate that speed or they actually tell their test rider to keep going faster until the wheel quits out (I suspect the former). If you weigh considerably more than 70kg and try riding at 30mph on a depleted battery then you're going to have problems. My own wheel has a posted top speed of 24mph but, because I weigh 96kg, I manually changed the top speed setting to 20mph. If my battery is depleted then I ride even slower. All wheels tend to have a tilt back function which will try to tilt you back as you approach the limits. Unfortunately, if you're accelerating fast (and the 16X accelerates very fast), then the wheel won't have enough power to get in front of you in order to tilt you back. The wheel will then cut out... i understand the competition among manufacturers in regards to this numbers, but this is no excuse maybe they should lean a little more on the safety aspect and provide numbers which add up together, otherwise they should clearly recommened to not drive near other vehicles and persons.. I bought the wheel because of the main stats. Which were: <120kg rider, 2,2kW, 50Kmh topspeed and 1580wh battery how fast may a 120kg driver drive with that wheel? up to which speed can he accererate normal? this is absurd.. 10 hours ago, Tryptych said: The dealer has nothing to do with KingSong making a defective product. It is BMW (or Volvo or Ford) that initiates global recalls when they identify a fault in their design, not the dealer. When a Tesla kills someone the responsibility is on Tesla to investigate, not the dealer. etc etc etc. It is my opinion that KingSong (and InMotion and Gotway) should be keeping an eye on major forums like this one, and stand behind their product and investigate serious incidents like this before someone dies, not after. Anything less is greedy and cowardly. It may be naive but that's my opinion. Im am in contact with kingsong and looking forward to share their details! Edited June 16, 2020 by EUC Endurist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 16, 2020 Author Share Posted June 16, 2020 10 hours ago, Tryptych said: The dealer has nothing to do with KingSong making a defective product. It is BMW (or Volvo or Ford) that initiates global recalls when they identify a fault in their design, not the dealer. When a Tesla kills someone the responsibility is on Tesla to investigate, not the dealer. etc etc etc. It is my opinion that KingSong (and InMotion and Gotway) should be keeping an eye on major forums like this one, and stand behind their product and investigate serious incidents like this before someone dies, not after. Anything less is greedy and cowardly. It may be naive but that's my opinion. but it could be argued that in some countries the dealers have information duty. Or check if the product is suited for the home country market. due to this failure beeing widely known and accepted in the community this should be priority one in a selling talk. Im disappointed that this did not happen in Austria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Alj Posted June 17, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 17, 2020 15 hours ago, EUC Endurist said: i understand the competition among manufacturers in regards to this numbers, but this is no excuse maybe they should lean a little more on the safety aspect and provide numbers which add up together, otherwise they should clearly recommened to not drive near other vehicles and persons.. This is fighting with windmills. Manufacturer will not understand you :-) If you want safe wheel - design it in Sweden or Germany where people have different priorities towards safety. I already wrote here that wheels are assembled with very little safety in mind. Generic (non-automotive) components, no redundancy, no moisture insulation, no proper debugging/stack tracing of shutdown/software crash/cut off issues which is almost no cost to implement since you already have phone app linked to the wheel (this is where i'd start). So i ride it knowing that it will cut off at some point because there are plenty of reason for that 1) Battery charge control board rough points will rub though the battery case (esp if you rid on gravel often) and cause short circuit in a battery element and fire 2) Moisture will cause copper/tin in the wire connectors, PCB board headers, MOSFET pins (all which is totally not moisture proof) to rot and cause continuity/insulation issues, 3) ingress of moisture and abrasive dust due to poor seal of motor cover will cause motor coils to short, which then will cause power suply voltage to dip which will cause MCU brain to shut down. 4) Maker can take a nap when on assembly line 5) The wheel can have missing parts because there was none of them available at the time of assembly and you need to keep shipping - I've read about wheels with missing components on Russian forums. 6) Hey, even trivial software bug will lead to inability to balance and crash If you look how they design Tesla cars (or any car in general) they have plan B almost for any situation described above EVEN though you are on 4 wheels there. This "vehicle" should have approach to reliability similar to helicopters (i e more serious than a car) because stuff needs to work not even to push you forward and stop but also to keep you away from the concrete. But instead of that it is built like DIY 3D printer, with similar reliability approach. It is fun to ride yes! But absolutely no one should entrust their lives to them. Meaning always be prepared (and plan) to crash and wear appropriate gear. Even if it never crashed on your before it will crash eventually because moisture will eat through copper at some point or something will rattle out and short. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tazarinho Posted June 17, 2020 Share Posted June 17, 2020 On 6/16/2020 at 2:12 PM, EUC Endurist said: but it could be argued that in some countries the dealers have information duty. Or check if the product is suited for the home country market. due to this failure beeing widely known and accepted in the community this should be priority one in a selling talk. Im disappointed that this did not happen in Austria. I agree that the dealers should offer advice on what can and cannot be done safely on a wheel. If they say this is a 50 km/h wheel and somebody cuts out, that is partially on them. Kingsong will always cover their own behinds by saying that the 'safe riding speed' as stated in the manual is 20 km/h. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 19, 2020 Author Share Posted June 19, 2020 On 6/17/2020 at 5:58 AM, Alj said: This is fighting with windmills. Manufacturer will not understand you :-) If you want safe wheel - design it in Sweden or Germany where people have different priorities towards safety. I already wrote here that wheels are assembled with very little safety in mind. Generic (non-automotive) components, no redundancy, no moisture insulation, no proper debugging/stack tracing of shutdown/software crash/cut off issues which is almost no cost to implement since you already have phone app linked to the wheel (this is where i'd start). So i ride it knowing that it will cut off at some point because there are plenty of reason for that 1) Battery charge control board rough points will rub though the battery case (esp if you rid on gravel often) and cause short circuit in a battery element and fire 2) Moisture will cause copper/tin in the wire connectors, PCB board headers, MOSFET pins (all which is totally not moisture proof) to rot and cause continuity/insulation issues, 3) ingress of moisture and abrasive dust due to poor seal of motor cover will cause motor coils to short, which then will cause power suply voltage to dip which will cause MCU brain to shut down. 4) Maker can take a nap when on assembly line 5) The wheel can have missing parts because there was none of them available at the time of assembly and you need to keep shipping - I've read about wheels with missing components on Russian forums. 6) Hey, even trivial software bug will lead to inability to balance and crash If you look how they design Tesla cars (or any car in general) they have plan B almost for any situation described above EVEN though you are on 4 wheels there. This "vehicle" should have approach to reliability similar to helicopters (i e more serious than a car) because stuff needs to work not even to push you forward and stop but also to keep you away from the concrete. But instead of that it is built like DIY 3D printer, with similar reliability approach. It is fun to ride yes! But absolutely no one should entrust their lives to them. Meaning always be prepared (and plan) to crash and wear appropriate gear. Even if it never crashed on your before it will crash eventually because moisture will eat through copper at some point or something will rattle out and short. I wonder how long it will take until european manufacturers came up, but for that EUC needs much more attention mainstream. Anybody wants to buy a damaged KS16X ? On 6/17/2020 at 3:24 PM, Tazarinho said: I agree that the dealers should offer advice on what can and cannot be done safely on a wheel. If they say this is a 50 km/h wheel and somebody cuts out, that is partially on them. Kingsong will always cover their own behinds by saying that the 'safe riding speed' as stated in the manual is 20 km/h. this would be a very nice information when buying such a weapon. This is exactly what i mean, they said 50kmh and under 120kg driver (a simple: "specifications may vary" would have been enough to ask about that and I would have received the information I needed to avoid this crash. The retailer says: I shot the fuse at 31A and this is the cause of the accident. I told him that I have many rides in my darknessbot where I had at least 50A for a short term without the wheel stopping to operate. The fuse is still alive, so no reason for the not triggered alarms. How fast can a 120kg driver drive really with the KS16X? If you think about testing out... be carefull. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjPanJan Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, EUC Endurist said: How fast can a 120kg driver drive really with the KS16X? If you think about testing out... be carefull. Watch my profile i am who you looking. 132KG full geared(include heavy tools in backpack). I have similar acident like you. I post all logs my overlean situation. Explaining all details solution etc. I just no want repeat my posts graphs data here again. @EUC Endurist is nothing against you crash is always bad and hurt i wish you no permanent health problems. I stop belive my 16X on 100% after "my "accident. (what trigers because i panic try ride away staford dog chasing me and i hard/overhard push my 16x ) . I not fall because i acelerate by leaning knee not my full body and when i lost balance i naturaly lean back and 16X catch ballance again (LUCK and my GUARDANGEL save me because i have 2 kids ). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon EUC Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) Personally i would put it down to 2 things 1) firmware failure (no sign of blow outs on motherboard) 2) hidden dip in road that cuases it to cut out. The 2nd incident happened to me a year or so ago. Was testing tilt back on my KS 16C and it was great and tested it again and it failed causing me the break my collar bone (didn't realised I broke it till 6 days later lol) turns out the peddle tilt did t fail... it was a dip in the road that blended in so you can't notice it as fast speed I have KS16 C and KS 18xl plus 15 other differ at brands and they ALL REDUCE MAX SPEED WHEN BATTERY LEVEL GOES DOWN. Now the OP was at 60% battery hitting max (or near max speed) when this happened. Therefore it is strongly pointing out to Eaither firmware glitching causing the cut out or an invisible road dip. If OP could visit that spot and have a look at the road then that would rule out one thing at least. Edited June 19, 2020 by Neon EUC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 19, 2020 Author Share Posted June 19, 2020 3 hours ago, Neon EUC said: Personally i would put it down to 2 things 1) firmware failure (no sign of blow outs on motherboard) 2) hidden dip in road that cuases it to cut out. The 2nd incident happened to me a year or so ago. Was testing tilt back on my KS 16C and it was great and tested it again and it failed causing me the break my collar bone (didn't realised I broke it till 6 days later lol) turns out the peddle tilt did t fail... it was a dip in the road that blended in so you can't notice it as fast speed I have KS16 C and KS 18xl plus 15 other differ at brands and they ALL REDUCE MAX SPEED WHEN BATTERY LEVEL GOES DOWN. Now the OP was at 60% battery hitting max (or near max speed) when this happened. Therefore it is strongly pointing out to Eaither firmware glitching causing the cut out or an invisible road dip. If OP could visit that spot and have a look at the road then that would rule out one thing at least. Hey thanks for the comment, i can 100% sort out potholes or the road in general.. I knew the track very good its one of the main commuting ways here. does the latest fw reduce the max speed at 60% battery?? kingsong offered me a new motherboard and housing for the ks16x, looking forward to the retailers solution. I will def. add photos off the accident spot, sry that I havent managed it until today :0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon EUC Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, EUC Endurist said: does the latest fw reduce the max speed at 60% battery?? kingsong offered me a new motherboard and housing for the ks16x, looking forward to the retailers solution. Fantatsic news to hear about the motherboard. You basically got a brand new device esp with the a shell too. Nothing to worry about for future rides now. Just quickly check the rim and smooth down any rough edges.all you have to do is run you finger around it and if there is any rough spots use a simple $1 nail file to smooth it over. Pretty sure the rim is 100% ok as they are hard to bend. Also with the top speed, it decreses when the battery gets lower just as a safty measure. But with the new board you will be up and running in no time. If possible do a video of the repair including close ups of the wires and where they hook up as that will be a life saver for others if possible and if you have the time. I did that with the windrider on YouTube in real time.. didnt help anybody tho as it wasn't a popular brand lol Edited June 19, 2020 by Neon EUC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alj Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 9 hours ago, EUC Endurist said: How fast can a 120kg driver drive really with the KS16X? If you think about testing out... be carefull. You have to understand that electric motors lose its torque as speed goes up, also due to coil inductance it requires more voltage from control board to produce the same torque at higher speeds. At low RPM motor has max torque which can create false impression about what motor power is going to be when at higher speed. So when riding at speed need to be very careful to not overpower motor or controller or battery. That means smooth ride, no power spikes, flat road. I, personally don't want to test those limits, i limited my wheel to 25mph in software till i learn better skills to be smooth at higher speeds. I also slow down on any rough terrain, hill or when its windy to create more headroom for extra power needed to balance through the obstacles and I always charge my wheel if it gets closer to 50%. That said, still, this cutoff should not have happened like that. Maybe it is software bug or partial problem with battery/controller or motor is too powerful for components that supply power to it (battery, controller). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davinche Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 What is most concerning is that some of these issues are not as big of a concern depending on which batch of KS16x you have. I had the same concerns, and Jason assured me that due to the multiple revisions Kingsong has made to their 16x line, the newer batches have a more reliable control board, more powerful motor, more water/dust proofing etc. All of which leads to an overall increase in safety and reliability. So while I still have my alarm at 25mph and tiltback at 28mph, the cutout issue seems to be predominately earlier versions of the 16x. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 14 hours ago, Neon EUC said: Pretty sure the rim is 100% ok as they are hard to bend. What? The rim is made of very soft inferior aluminum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 20, 2020 Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 1 hour ago, buell47 said: What? The rim is made of very soft inferior aluminum. i think this is sarcasm but im not sure^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 No, absolutely not. Never saw so soft aluminum. I was able to bend my bent rim back effortlessly. I have worked a lot with aluminium in my life, but this was the softest I have ever come across. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 On 6/19/2020 at 10:25 AM, EUC Endurist said: I wonder how long it will take until european manufacturers came up Never. They will make a KS 16X equivalent, but with less vmax (safety) and it will end up costing $4000. If you want to see why non-Chinese can never compete with Chinese, because the price dictates everything in this market, look at what has happened to Boosted with their skateboards. They got obliterated by Chinese e-skates that had the same performance for literally half the price. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted June 20, 2020 Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, ir_fuel said: Never. They will make a KS 16X equivalent, but with less vmax (safety) and it will end up costing $4000. If you want to see why non-Chinese can never compete with Chinese, because the price dictates everything in this market, look at what has happened to Boosted with their skateboards. They got obliterated by Chinese e-skates that had the same performance for literally half the price. I fear you could be right(not sure about safety tho, as quality and safety tend to go hand in hand). Until people look past the bottom dollar and shop with OTHER considerations first, the sketchy chinese market will always win. Well, until some OTHER country can get their hands on even cheaper materials and use slave labor. THEN, everyone will buy those instead. @EUC Endurist The metals that China is using to cut costs, is not of high quality. All of my local 'landfills' collect metal (unsorted) and ship it in containers to china to be reused and sold back to us. I seriously doubt that these euc companies are paying a premium for quality. More than likely, they are using the cheapest mixture of bs metals they can find, that will BARELY get the job done. Surely you've ran into a TON of 'metals' from china that seem more like crushed up paperclips and baby diapers, before? Be good to your rim and it will more than likely be fine. Assuming its of high quality and treating it as such.... youll be buying rims regularly. Edited June 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 20, 2020 Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 7 hours ago, buell47 said: No, absolutely not. Never saw so soft aluminum. I was able to bend my bent rim back effortlessly. I have worked a lot with aluminium in my life, but this was the softest I have ever come across. sry I meant the comment you cited, I have seen that wheel flying through the air and one of the impacts was directly on the tire, its pretty deformated now. So I´d like to say again that there was really much force in every impact. so I cringed a little bit when I read the alu rim is 100% intact. I will try to add fotos of the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 20, 2020 Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, ir_fuel said: Never. They will make a KS 16X equivalent, but with less vmax (safety) and it will end up costing $4000. If you want to see why non-Chinese can never compete with Chinese, because the price dictates everything in this market, look at what has happened to Boosted with their skateboards. They got obliterated by Chinese e-skates that had the same performance for literally half the price. ok but you cant deny the fact that an "automotive quality" euc could be way easier get licensed/insuranced in european markets. so if you manage to build it with safe speed 50km/h for under 100kg drivers it would be definitely a second thought for many riders. and there isnt a premium brand right now as it seems, you cant count many other than KS, Inmotion and GotWay. ok maybe vet sherman, but its a Gotway platform isnt it? before you say "safe speed 50kmh, idiot" please think about the many technical solutions there are to limit current flow, it would be possible that there is a safe throttling in anycase, nobody will lean more in when the pedals drop a few % in or to a safe tilt back up and this is definitely possible. only some thoughts On 6/19/2020 at 10:41 AM, DjPanJan said: Watch my profile i am who you looking. 132KG full geared(include heavy tools in backpack). I have similar acident like you. I post all logs my overlean situation. Explaining all details solution etc. I just no want repeat my posts graphs data here again. @EUC Endurist is nothing against you crash is always bad and hurt i wish you no permanent health problems. I stop belive my 16X on 100% after "my "accident. (what trigers because i panic try ride away staford dog chasing me and i hard/overhard push my 16x ) . I not fall because i acelerate by leaning knee not my full body and when i lost balance i naturaly lean back and 16X catch ballance again (LUCK and my GUARDANGEL save me because i have 2 kids ). @DjPanJan thank you very much for the reply, sorry for my harsh answers but I was really upset about people saying its the drivers fault when something happens. I would never have thought that this is possible. Chinese manufacturers had alway had a bad reputation, but this is about to change in so many fields already. they really catched up with quality in so many fields, and I automatically decided that Kingsongs KS16X for 2250€ would be one of the things where they really catched up with quality standards. The accident happened because none of the expected 3 alarms set in. I may have leant to much in but Darknessbot Data showed about 36A max current. This is ridiculous versus many other tracks with 50A +. So I see no logical or technical reason for not giving at least one of the alarms. Wow I dont want to think about how many times I would have crashed in my 600km KS16 riding when I would have had your weight!! Im pretty sure I was on the limit many times due to not knowing this shit. Your accident sounds pretty scary. When I dropped I was stressed to search my body for bad injuries, not minding a stafford running behind me^^ I am really happy that neither you nor me did have "serious injuries" in that cases. Hope you do well now and I hope I will get a nice EUC soon again Edited June 20, 2020 by EUC Endurist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 20, 2020 Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 Ok guys here are some photos because everybody likes photos: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Endurist Posted June 20, 2020 Author Share Posted June 20, 2020 GRAPHICAL, dont go down when eating or something.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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