Jump to content

A Good Look at Gotway's New Control Board!


Recommended Posts

After initially installing the new board in a Monster case, I am now less certain that the new bullet connectors on the board will be compatible with the currently used 4.5mm male bullets on Gotway motors... They are just a liiiiittle too loose for my liking. I think Gotway actually have moved up to a 5mm connector, and I should be able to get my hands on some later today to test that theory out properly.

Also, due to the shallower depth of the connectors the motor phase wires are now sticking so high up out of the board that I cannot seem to install the side panel properly! Hmmm... :confused1:   :facepalm:

Will update when I have new information!

Edited by Arbolest
Link to post
Share on other sites

Great informative post Wesley. It is interesting how the MOSFET's are a bit closer, but I suppose as long as they're not touching the air gap will be sufficient.

Your custom wheel project sounds interesting :popcorn:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Excellent! :thumbup:

3 hours ago, Arbolest said:

As to the murmuring I have heard about the capacitors, I can confirm that these are indeed the same caps Gotway has been using on its larger 84v wheels for several years now. They match the ones I have on the control boards for my old MSuper V3S+, the MSX control board, and all 3 generations of the Monster's control board.

Could someone check (or make a photo) what capacitors they use on the 100V board? Just to be sure. Never trust a manufacturer. Etc.;):ph34r:

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nick McCutcheon said:

From the MSP I've opened, they do in fact use 160v caps.

Fantastic, thank you! I was wondering because the supposed MSP board showed these 100V capacitors. But if Gotway has a new design that's also used for their 84V wheels, that explains everything.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Fantastic, thank you! I was wondering because the supposed MSP board showed these 100V capacitors. But if Gotway has a new design that's also used for their 84V wheels, that explains everything.

If you look at the MSP board via my 4k video you can clearly see that they are 160-volt capacitors. What MSP board were you looking at???

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

If you look at the MSP board via my 4k video you can clearly see that they are 160-volt capacitors. What MSP board were you looking at???

I was just remembering the photos of the supposed MSP board in the MSP thread, which had 100V caps and everyone was curious about that. Now we know why, it's Gotway's new board  in an 84V version:)

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Arbolest said:

Ok, small update! I installed the new control board in my old Monster Chassis (more on that later) and went for a spin around the block. Actually, I went for MANY spins around the block (god I love these wheels). Whatever firmware they installed on it has that same confidence-inspiring authority when it comes to power delivery when in hard and medium mode, but I detected a... words fail me here, but what almost seemed like a subtle, momentary jittery-ness or lack of surety in its responses sometimes when I was riding it in soft mode. Now, I primarily ride my monster in soft mode, so I don't think it's my imagination, but it might just have been the excitement playing tricks on my mind. We'll see... I'm going for a nice long ride with it tomorrow :wub:

Anyway, a couple things I ran across while installing, testing and riding the board:

1) The 5-volt fans used on many older generations of wheels are NOT compatible with this board! This new board feeds the fan 12v, not 5v! I had plugged in the 5v fans that originally came with the Monster, and oh man, those things were SCREAMING :shock2:   Luckily I had a small 12v fan to swap in which allowed me to continue my testing...

2) On startup, the fan will ALWAYS turn on in a strange, quick-paced rhythmic pattern (tested with multiple fans). It ramps up to full speed, then lets itself die back down to near idle/stall speed, then repeats on an approximately 2-second cycle. I originally thought the board was malfunctioning, but after I gently heated the board with a small hair dryer to raise its temperature, the fan ramped up and held its speed until it cooled off, then repeated its strange "breathing" cycle. I'm guessing that the control board's active cooling algorithm is simply tuned to never actually turn the fan off for one reason or another. :confused1: 

3) I have confirmed that the bullet connectors on the new board are still 4.5mm connectors (too small for the 5mm bullets I tried out with them today). I was wrong... :P    They are, however, definitely made for shorter male connectors than I have seen on other wheels in the past. Because of that, if you ever have the opportunity (or need) to install one of these boards in one of your wheels make sure to take proper care when putting the side panel back on, because your motor phase wires will be sticking up out of the board significantly higher (1/4" or more) than they were with past boards! If you're not careful, you could damage the board/connectors/wires!

4) The slight looseness I mentioned before concerning the new bullet connectors seems to be a non-issue. It appears to have simply been due to the particular connectors I was using as stand-ins for the ones that come from the Gotway factory (can't seem to find them anywhere online somehow...). I tried using the motor connectors from my old MSuper and they fit nice and tight, so no worries there. 

5) This next one is a behavioral note that likely won't affect anyone, but I figured I'd throw it in here as well: When doing some lift tests to verify good operation of the board (one of the first things I do), I found that while the acceleration is smooth and power-delivery is exactly what you would expect from a modern Gotway, they seem to have adjusted how quickly the motor slows itself and stops when it reaches its no-load max speed! I performed the lift test a few times to be sure, and I found that the new board only holds its top speed for about a second now before REALLY slamming on the brakes. Like, the deceleration maneuver is WAY more emphatic than before. I don't know if Gotway is just getting less shy about using all of the power their hardware provides, but jeebus... :blink:     Anyway, this is in contrast to all of my other wheels and the videos I've seen online of other Gotways which hold their max speed for about twice as long. Like I said, probably not going to affect anyone, but thought I'd mention it.

 

That's all I have to report for tonight! I'll drop back in and add anything I notice during my extended ride tomorrow!

 

Great information.

Regarding the "breathing" cycle of the, if I remember, that's in the Nikola too (but I could be wrong). I assumed this was happening because Gotway didn't properly implement hysteresis in their fan controller software.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Arbolest said:

This board allowed an 84v wheel to cruise comfortably up to 36mph while definitely NOT at 100% charge!

Shouldn't the no-torque speed and 80% of it only depend only on the motor? The motor is the same (MSX/Nik 2000W motor) right?

The 84V Monster 100% battery 80% alarm is at 55kph (34mph) so I assume, since you measured differently, the beeps haven't actually changed? Because if they have changed, how could that be explained?

(You could do a lift test at full battery and read the speed from the app at which the beeps appear.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

A couple things: 

55 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Shouldn't the no-torque speed and 80% of it only depend only on the motor? The motor is the same (MSX/Nik 2000W motor) right?

1) From my understanding of it, it's the no-torque RPM that is dependent on the motor, not the speed. The no-torque speed depends on a combination of the RPM and the circumference of the wheel the motor is driving. This means that even if the motors in the Nikola, MSX and Monster were all driven at the same voltage and duty cycle without any load (reaching the same RPM), they would still be "rolling" at different "speeds" .

2) The Monster that the new board is currently in (the one I was testing it in all day today and hit 36 before beeping) is actually an original Monster V1 built at some point after they started using the HB motors and the larger bullet connectors! Not sure if there are different winding setups within the motor manufacturer's HB classification, but if there are then that may explain something about the differences I'm seeing...

3) Taking point #1 into account, another possibility is that the firmware on the new board is actually designed for an MSX-type wheel (despite the sticker that clearly says Monster V3). This would lead to a situation where the difference in distance traveled per RPM of the motor would lead to the wheel going faster than it thinks it is --> beeping at a higher speed. Now, 22/19 (wheel diameters of Monster and MSX) is about 1.158, and if we multiply that by the assumed top speed of the 84v Monster (34mph) then we get something like 39mph. Add in the fact that I'm wearing bulky, drag-inducing riding gear and a backpack on a slightly windy day (headwind too xD) and I can absolutely see that 39mph getting cut down to 36mph! It makes one wonder...

55 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The 84V Monster 100% battery 80% alarm is at 55kph (34mph) so I assume, since you measured differently, the beeps haven't actually changed? Because if they have changed, how could that be explained?

4) I've actually never been able to get my trusty 84v Monster V2 to hit 34mph (as measured with my GPS speedometer) without beeping. The alarm would always go off at 32 or 33, sometimes lower depending on battery level. The fact that I was able to go so much faster with this control board on a Monster comprised of older hardware than my V2 tells me that, barring some kind of firmware mixup, the most likely cause is that they've managed to eek out a bit more efficiency in their new design somehow. I have no data on this of course, but I mentioned above that the ride sound was far quieter than even my V2 Monster, which points to them tuning the motor control algorithm even further than before. I'm not saying it's the reason, but it is certainly something I've been thinking about... 

55 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

(You could do a lift test at full battery and read the speed from the app at which the beeps appear.)

5) I actually tried when I got home after the extended ride, but if you recall that weird behavior thing that I mentioned in a prior post about the motor stopping much more quickly after it reaches its top no-load speed? Yeah, turns out that makes it darn hard to get an accurate read from the app :rolleyes:

Edited by Arbolest
Clarification
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Arbolest said:

This board allowed an 84v wheel to cruise comfortably up to 36mph while definitely NOT at 100% charge!

 

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Shouldn't the no-torque speed and 80% of it only depend only on the motor? The motor is the same (MSX/Nik 2000W motor) right?

The maximum no load speed (~lift cut off speed, no torque speed) depends on the motor and the (actual) battery voltage!

As it comes from the motor back emf reaching battery voltage. With no voltage difference no current can flow and so no torque can be generated anymore.

42 minutes ago, Arbolest said:

but if you recall that weird behavior thing that I mentioned in a prior post about the motor stopping much more quickly after it reaches its top no-load speed?

Cut off bahaviour at this max no load speed is still one of the unknowns. This need to cut the motor off could arrive from the motor driving algorithm? Or something different? Or is just some ancient artifact? Did never read, heard or found any specific reasoning for this...

46 minutes ago, Arbolest said:

Yeah, turns out that makes it darn hard to get an accurate read from the app

(EUC World) Logging is great for this!

Especially as one has the "real" voltage value with the measurement and not "only" some estimations from screen readings...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, since the MSX and Monster have had the same motor but the MSX is faster (at least the 80% alarm is) there must be something else anyways. It is how it is...

13 hours ago, Arbolest said:

It makes one wonder...

Yes, be safe:)

Isn't there a sticker on the board that says which wheel it is supposed to be?

13 hours ago, Arbolest said:

5) I actually tried when I got home after the extended ride, but if you recall that weird behavior thing that I mentioned in a prior post about the motor stopping much more quickly after it reaches its top no-load speed? Yeah, turns out that makes it darn hard to get an accurate read from the app :rolleyes:

Not the shut-off speed. The 80% alarm speed at 100% battery. You can creep up to it slowly, kph by kph, and it won't go crazy if you are a bit faster. So you can check what the app says about that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Well, since the MSX and Monster have had the same motor but the MSX is faster (at least the 80% alarm is) there must be something else anyways. It is how it is...

Msx has less diameter as the monster? So it must have a different firmware for 80% alarm.

But for max no load speed diameter is beside battery voltage and motor the third determining variable.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...
On 2/19/2020 at 9:51 AM, Arbolest said:

Today I got my hands on a new control board for an 84v Monster V3 that I intend to use in an upcoming custom wheel project (thanks a million @Jason McNeil!!!). Much to my delight, when I opened the package I found that it was one of the new-style boards that is being used in the MSP! Now, I know that there are a few pictures floating around of the new board (as well as some short video clips thanks to @Marty Backe and a few others) but since I couldn't find any that were close-in enough to let me see the detail I wanted, I figured I would take a few and post them here for everyone to check out!!

 

First up, a comparison with the MSX-style board that it is replacing! (MSX-style on the left, MSP-style on the right)

0219200539b.thumb.jpg.8b1fc3e59e2f00e992e2851af4812c8f.jpg

I was immediately struck by how much more compact the new control board is! By offloading the DC-DC converter onto its own daughter board they managed to really cram the components of this new board together! While I know it probably means nothing in practical terms, I worry about how much closer together the two rows of MOSFETS have come! especially their legs!

The second thing I noticed is that the bullet connectors used for the motor phase wires are actually a bit different! The walls are definitely thicker! I tested out how well they interfaced with the 4.5mm male bullet connectors Gotway currently uses on their motor wires, and while it is definitely still a good connection, it is actually notably less snug than on the older board, and it also doesn't sink in as far (a difference of about 2-3mm)! I don't have any 5mm connectors on-hand to try out, but perhaps Gotway is moving up to a slightly larger connector size in the near future!

 

Next, a straight(-ish :rolleyes:) overhead shot.

0219200540b.thumb.jpg.95ad9ada396d8754e227fd1e6d62ed71.jpg

You can really see in this shot how thick the walls of the new bullet connectors are! Also, while I am definitely a fan of color-coding all of the connectors for the switches, lights, power etc., I would just like to say I am NOT a fan of the super-similar orange and brown, especially with them sitting right next to each other... I mean come on Gotway!

 

From "Below"

0219200541.thumb.jpg.3772d3f84b1db1f6f53816022467a3a0.jpg

From what I understand in Gotway's wiring diagram for this board, the 4-pin connector beneath the black ribbon cable is used for the new dual headlight, which I heard runs at 24v! Does anyone know what the pinout on that is? Also, I have no idea what the brown 2-pin connector next to it is for... I can't  seem to find any reference to it!

 

From the MOSFET and capacitor side

0219200542.thumb.jpg.b5756900015779ee296671b917595b0d.jpg

As far as I can tell, the MOSFET packages haven't changed from the beefy TO-247 package we have come to love and expect. They are, however, now so close to one another that they might as well be considered touching, which makes me less comfortable... Also, as mentioned above, the two rows of MOSFETs are actually closer together now!

As to the murmuring I have heard about the capacitors, I can confirm that these are indeed the same caps Gotway has been using on its larger 84v wheels for several years now. They match the ones I have on the control boards for my old MSuper V3S+, the MSX control board, and all 3 generations of the Monster's control board.

 

And finally from the side of the new daughter board that holds the DC-DC converter

0219200542a.thumb.jpg.02fcedbfe38900935a8caa26518857ae.jpg

As @Marty Backe mentioned before, the DC-DC converter is WAY beefier.

From what I understand the 5v rail is capable of offering SEVERAL more amps of current than the anemic 1-amp or less that was previously available, which finally allows for fast charging via the USB ports, or even powering external devices  for you fellow modders out there. :efee6b18f3:

Also, if we now have a 24v (and possibly 12v based on a little rumor I heard recently) supply we can tap, then that opens up a whole new world of aftermarket devices we can now think about adding to our wheels! (12v automobile lights anyone?...)

 

Anyway, I'm terribly excited to get a chance to play around with this new board, so I'm gonna go do just that! Well... first I'm going to install it in my wheel and go ride it around, but then? SCIENCE!!!

i just received this v3 board to replace my v2 monster. I don't have a clue what connects where.

do you know where to find the diagram?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 5 months later...

Please guys, what are the name of the 2-3 pin connector they use on the board. looking for them on ali for a friend..

I replaced my nikola board and some cable are too short.  I did cut and lengthen my wires but a friend of me want to do the same but with longer connector instead.

- i shorted my old board, its still working but no more 12V, bluetooth or 5V so i ordered a new one from Ewheel, and an updated speakerbox at the same time!

Also, i noticed on the new board there is the double headlight connector and since i own a nikola i only have a single headlight!  I guess this is for the MSX double!  Could i add a double headlight on my Nikola to improve night riding, since the nikola one is poor  (or any other headlight improvment)

some picture of my old vs new board

 

 

 

 

Nikola_oldBoard_sm.jpg

nikola_original_speakerbox.jpg

nikola_new_speakerbox.jpg

Edited by Lavabo
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the connectors are called 'JST' type. Re the headlight, I am fairly sure that the later board (for use with MSP twin headlights) can also be used with a single headlight. Not sure where to plug it in (not the same place as twin headlights!), but I am sure it has been done with the late board on the single MSX/Nik headlight.

Link to post
Share on other sites

JST-XH 2 pin    (3-4-5 pin ecc...)

of course if you buy the "msp eyes" you can use them but you need to find how to fit them

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...