KS16X Cutoff/Overlean - 29-30mph

[Chriull]

12 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I did some pretty thorough testing here:

...

 

Great! Thanks!

Your numbers give a perfect line -  50 km/h limit at 100% downto 30 km/h limit at 30%

So the table changes to

 

kv ((km/h)/V)

lift cut off speed 10% charge (km/h)

lift cut off speed 30% charge (km/h)

lift cut off speed full battery (km/h)

Max Tiltback/3rd Alarm Speed (km/h)

factor at 10% charge

factor at 30% charge

factor full battery

KS16X v1.07	0,78	50,97	54,26	65,77	50			1,32
KS16X v1.07	0,78	50,97	54,26	65,77	30		1,81

 

Looks better and much more comforting now!

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

57 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Your numbers give a perfect line -  50 km/h limit at 100% downto 30 km/h limit at 30%

Either I get it wrong or something's wrong.

At one of my tests with 1.0.7 I had:

44km/h (limit) @23% battery

42 km/h (limit) @20% battery

30 km/h (tilt back) @4% battery

[Mike Sacristan]

2 hours ago, buell47 said:

Either I get it wrong or something's wrong.

At one of my tests with 1.0.7 I had:

44km/h (limit) @23% battery

42 km/h (limit) @20% battery

30 km/h (tilt back) @4% battery

Is this with Darknessbot? Darknessbot sees 66V as 0%. You would have to add 10-15% units for Darknessbot to be right.
At 20% or 67V the most I could do was 34km before soft tiltback.
I don't know how wheellog presents % but I do know that it can do it in 2 ways.
This is why I always show the value in voltage. Hopefully it's precise enough and more universal.

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

Great! Thanks!

Your numbers give a perfect line -  50 km/h limit at 100% downto 30 km/h limit at 30%

So the table changes to

 

kv ((km/h)/V)

lift cut off speed 10% charge (km/h)

lift cut off speed 30% charge (km/h)

lift cut off speed full battery (km/h)

Max Tiltback/3rd Alarm Speed (km/h)

factor at 10% charge

factor at 30% charge

factor full battery

KS16X v1.07	0,78	50,97	54,26	65,77	50			1,32
KS16X v1.07	0,78	50,97	54,26	65,77	30		1,81

 

Looks better and much more comforting now!

At 20% or 67V I was still doing 34kmh.

I was just out riding.

I got throttled  with soft tiltback at 45kmh, 42kmh and 40kmh during my trip home.
I also got throttled when I did a quick acceleration going up a small hill. During the climb I flicked the pedals and got a 4 beep alarm.
During the rest of the ride I flicked the pedals at soft tiltback and did not get the 4 beep alarm.
During the last soft tiltback at 40kmh and ~69V I flicked at soft tiltback and got hard tiltback.

My numbers for my night cruise:

Time - Voltage - Speed (soft tiltback)

23:08 - 71.48V - 45.6kmh (flicked several times with no result)

23:14 - 69.08 V- 40.7kmh (flicked to hard tiltback)

 

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

26 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Is this with Darknessbot?

No, with King Song App. 

 

3 hours ago, buell47 said:

44km/h (limit) @23% battery

42 km/h (limit) @20% battery

30 km/h (tilt back) @4% battery

@ 23% (68V) not reached soft tiltback

@ 20% (67,32V) not reached soft tiltback

 

@ 4 % (? V) soft tilt back

 

 

[Mike Sacristan]

It sure would be fun if my Kingsong for iOS didn't just show 100% and 50kmh forever lol.

Here is some testing I did a few weeks back with FW 1.07.

At 67.5V and 38kmh I hit the alarm.
A bit later also at 67.5V at 34kmh I got light tiltback. Pushed to 35.

I sure wouldn't been doing those speeds at 67.5V on my MSX.

 

 

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

Here is some testing I did a few weeks back with FW 1.07.

At 67.5V and 38kmh I hit the alarm.
A bit later also at 67.5V at 34kmh I got light tiltback. Pushed to 35.

I sure wouldn't been doing those speeds at 67.5V on my MSX.

I have no problem going 40km/h on my MSX at 67.5V riding voltage. It will of course continue the annoying 15% battery beeps whenever I ride below 15% (68.7V?). But just like you said about the 16X pedals, the MSX pedals are just as hard at 66V as they are at 84V.

Something you said about the MSX isn’t quite correct though. There is a tilt-back, and it’s turned on by default. Turning it off is a (IMO questionable) user decision. And to ”where’s my safety margin there”, From the revealing analysis by Chriull on the previous page: The MSX has a ~40% safety margin between the alarm and the no-load speed, at any battery level. That is a lot more than KS has at any battery level. And as you mentioned, the alarm on the MSX works similiar to the 16X tilt-back. But if one turns off the GW tilt-back and doesn’t hear the alarm, only then is one riding somewhat blind.

If only there was a switch in the GW app to enable tilt-back with the third warning beeps. Actually, it doesn’t need to be a switch at all, it should be always enabled.

I keep the tilt-back setting at 48km/h, and it suits me well. I have only reached it once though. The MSX does a slow tilt-back whenever the voltage is below 66V. So it won’t let me accelerate very fast from a 67.5V resting voltage, but it doesn’t limit the speed directly, only by the voltage. If the voltage recovers past 66V, the tilt-back goes away.

At the end of the day, all wheels behave exactly the same: You can’t ride fast or accelerate aggressively with a low battery. The difference is just in how the wheels remind you of this fact.

[Mike Sacristan]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

I have no problem going 40km/h on my MSX at 67.5V riding voltage. It will of course continue the annoying 15% battery beeps whenever I ride below 15% (68.7V?). But just like you said about the 16X pedals, the MSX pedals are just as hard at 66V as they are at 84V.

Something you said about the MSX isn’t quite correct though. There is a tilt-back, and it’s turned on by default. Turning it off is a (IMO questionable) user decision. And to ”where’s my safety margin there”, From the revealing analysis by Chriull on the previous page: The MSX has a ~40% safety margin between the alarm and the no-load speed, at any battery level. That is a lot more than KS has at any battery level. And as you mentioned, the alarm on the MSX works similiar to the 16X tilt-back. But if one turns off the GW tilt-back and doesn’t hear the alarm, only then is one riding somewhat blind.

If only there was a switch in the GW app to enable tilt-back with the third warning beeps. Actually, it doesn’t need to be a switch at all, it should be always enabled.

I keep the tilt-back setting at 48km/h, and it suits me well. I have only reached it once though. The MSX does a slow tilt-back whenever the voltage is below 66V. So it won’t let me accelerate very fast from a 67.5V resting voltage, but it doesn’t limit the speed directly, only by the voltage. If the voltage recovers past 66V, the tilt-back goes away.

At the end of the day, all wheels behave exactly the same: You can’t ride fast or accelerate aggressively with a low battery. The difference is just in how the wheels remind you of this fact.

Thank you for the clarification! Looks like I was putting too much focus on the actually battery alarm and being too skeptical regarding the 45 kmh 5 beeps despite lower voltage.
Me and riding past alarms you know! 

I have been on low battery on the MSX only a couple of times and wasn't really brave enough to push it to speed when I was getting battery beeps at 20 kmh. I know the speed reduction thread as well as many other reports say 45 kmh but that's quite a jump. I don't mind beeping my last km home but I do mind crawling at 20 so I will suit up and give it a try so that I feel confident in the mechanisms and so that I also can feel the low voltage tilt-back which I have never reached.

My problem with the tilt-back on the MSX is:

It's a slow creeping tilt-back with a fixed value isn't it? If I set it to 48 kmh which ironically is the highest.. then it will start to creep on me. As soon as I start passing 35 kmh I already get a veeeeeeery slow tilt in the MSX which requires more intent from my side to defeat. At 45 kmh I am in "very high intent mode" and a creeping tilt-back that starts at 48 kmh could be easily confused with me not having enough intent, ending up more on the balls of my feet and wobbling.

If it's set on 48 kmh though and I am at the point where I battery beep at 30kmh and 80% beep at 45 kmh then the tilt-back doesn't move down does it? So potentially I could still be doing 48 kmh (which is achievable at 5 beeps 80% and the extra +3kmh and tilt-back maybe fitting in there + another few kmh as the tilt-back also creeps). I can ride tilt-back + 6 kmh at low speed... at high speed I imagine I would run out of ankle dorsiflexion.

Also as I understand it now the MSX when getting "beyond power capacity" does not cut but instead gets soft and some riders have even been able to detect this and recover by pulling their posture back and retreating.

Like you say I would prefer a tilt-back that is in line with the 80% alarm. People are doing 60 kmh on the MSX... even a little more.
The fastest I have done is 56 kmh and that was for a full minute  or two totally clueless and not hearing the alarm.
The total amount of times I have gone faster than 50 kmh though is maybe 20... so it's not like I am pushing the wheel to the max. I'm not that kind of person.

16X for me works like this (in the non voice mode):

Set alarm to X speed (in my case 45 kmh).
Get 5 beep alarm at 45 kmh.
Push until I get soft tilt-back and if I like push to 88% 4 beep alarm and/or hard tilt-back (I rarely do this beyond 45 kmh).
At a bit lower voltage:
Not be able to achieve 45 kmh because of soft tilt-back starting at 44 kmh. Push on the tilt-back. Hit 45 kmh. Push a bit more. Maybe get 5 beep alarm or 4 beep alarm or hard tilt-back.

The soft tilt-back on the 16X has always been reliable but if I set the alarm at for instance at 50 kmh the wheel sure does get very quiet.  

As for Gotway, are we still stuck at 48 kmh as the highest tilt-back value regardless if it's a 100v or not?
 

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

wasn't really brave enough to push it to speed when I was getting battery beeps at 20 kmh.

After 8000km on a KS, it also took me a long time to better understand the GW family behaviour. The low battery beep is very simple: Whenever the battery is below 15%, -> beep. If battery is 20% at rest, it will quite easily dip below 15%, -> beep. I often ride home beeping all the way, but while I stay far away from the 45km/h beep, I don’t even ride that carefully, since when the MSX is at around 10% the 18XL would still allow (almost?) full speed.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

so that I also can feel the low voltage tilt-back which I have never reached.

Darknessbot 0% is the same as MSX 0%, so until the level reaches zero, you won’t get a tiltback. When you do, it’s also very simple: When 0% (or less), -> tilt. If the 0% was reached during an acceleration, the voltage will recover instantly as the rider eases up, so -> tilt off.

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

My problem with the tilt-back on the MSX is:

I can see how it can suit some people much worse than it suits me. I have a hard time pushing when the wheel resists. Be it wind, incline, tilt-back, deep sand, etc. When the MSX starts to resist at 48km/h, I sure as bell won’t start pushing through. My acceleration at those speeds is so slow, that I don’t even notice the pedals rising. I just hang at the 48-49 and feel that this is as fast as I’m comfortable going.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

a creeping tilt-back that starts at 48 kmh could be easily confused with me not having enough intent, ending up more on the balls of my feet and wobbling.

I don’t know how you would feel about the behaviour, but I do suggest you try it out! It could behave or feel quite different to you, since you ride differently.

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

If it's set on 48 kmh though and I am at the point where I battery beep at 30kmh and 80% beep at 45 kmh then the tilt-back doesn't move down does it?

It does. IMU, battery beep, 80% beep, and tilt-back are all separate entities. Meaning, the user set tilt-back only and always comes up when you ride past 48km/h. Nothing affects that. The 0% battery tilt-back only and always comes up at 0% battery, and nothing else affects that. Etc.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

at high speed I imagine I would run out of ankle dorsiflexion.

I’m pretty sure the tilt-back would finally do it’s job and slow down even you... 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Also as I understand it now the MSX when getting "beyond power capacity" does not cut but instead gets soft and some riders have even been able to detect this and recover by pulling their posture back and retreating.

No modern wheel cuts off until the wheel is at a ~45 degree tilt. Until that it will do it’s best to keep you upright. If it’s at it’s limits, the pedals will indeed feel soft.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The total amount of times I have gone faster than 50 kmh though is maybe 20... so it's not like I am pushing the wheel to the max. I'm not that kind of person.

Sounds like a 48km/h tilt-back might serve you quite well to save you from possible further ”clueless” moments. That’s exactly why I have it on.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

As for Gotway, are we still stuck at 48 kmh as the highest tilt-back value regardless if it's a 100v or not?

*sigh* We indeed are. It’s been the same since much slower models. The blame for people turning off the tilt-back on their 100V wheels does turn to GW quite a bit due to this. What’s the point in paying all that extra to have a wheel that feels and performs (almost) the same?

[Seba]

Seems that KS-16X is overrated in terms of speed capability. Just take a look at the first plot that I put in the following thread:

Clearly looks that it starts throttling just from about 80 % of battery charge (about 78 V).

[travsformation]

3 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

It's a slow creeping tilt-back with a fixed value isn't it? If I set it to 48 kmh which ironically is the highest.. then it will start to creep on me. As soon as I start passing 35 kmh I already get a veeeeeeery slow tilt in the MSX which requires more intent from my side to defeat. At 45 kmh I am in "very high intent mode" and a creeping tilt-back that starts at 48 kmh could be easily confused with me not having enough intent, ending up more on the balls of my feet and wobbling.

It looks like wheel manufacturers like to go with one extreme or another when it comes to tiltback: GW will give you such a slow, gradual tiltback that you might not realize it's a tiltback and will put in more intent to overpower it, and KS will try to throw you off the wheel....

[travsformation]

The 16X seems like a complete departure for KS’s usual approach, like they're trying to compete with GW on a level they hadn't until now, but are in unexplored territory and can't quite get it right. I may be wrong, but it seems to me like it all boils down to torque delivery. The folks at KS must be aware that they can't compete with GW in terms of speed (based on their approach to safety), so they want to hold on to the highest possible torque, which is the edge the 16X has over the Nikola, but haven't quite figured out how to keep the high torque without it being dangerous, but aren't willing to place all their chips on safety either for sales reasons. It looks to me like they're walking a line with safety on one side and sales/competition on the other, not willing to fully commit one way or the other. It would certainly explain the evolution of torque delivery from 1st batch release until firmware 1.0.7…

It seems to me like the safety assumptions that have always held true for KS, for how they've historically approached safety, aren't the case for the 16X. That must be why one of the local distributors in Barcelona is advertising its max. speed as 45 km/h...

Edited December 4, 2019 by travsformation

[Mike Sacristan]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

After 8000km on a KS, it also took me a long time to better understand the GW family behaviour. The low battery beep is very simple: Whenever the battery is below 15%, -> beep. If battery is 20% at rest, it will quite easily dip below 15%, -> beep. I often ride home beeping all the way, but while I stay far away from the 45km/h beep, I don’t even ride that carefully, since when the MSX is at around 10% the 18XL would still allow (almost?) full speed.

 

Darknessbot 0% is the same as MSX 0%, so until the level reaches zero, you won’t get a tiltback. When you do, it’s also very simple: When 0% (or less), -> tilt. If the 0% was reached during an acceleration, the voltage will recover instantly as the rider eases up, so -> tilt off.

I can see how it can suit some people much worse than it suits me. I have a hard time pushing when the wheel resists. Be it wind, incline, tilt-back, deep sand, etc. When the MSX starts to resist at 48km/h, I sure as bell won’t start pushing through. My acceleration at those speeds is so slow, that I don’t even notice the pedals rising. I just hang at the 48-49 and feel that this is as fast as I’m comfortable going.

 

I don’t know how you would feel about the behaviour, but I do suggest you try it out! It could behave or feel quite different to you, since you ride differently.

It does. IMU, battery beep, 80% beep, and tilt-back are all separate entities. Meaning, the user set tilt-back only and always comes up when you ride past 48km/h. Nothing affects that. The 0% battery tilt-back only and always comes up at 0% battery, and nothing else affects that. Etc.

 

I’m pretty sure the tilt-back would finally do it’s job and slow down even you... 

No modern wheel cuts off until the wheel is at a ~45 degree tilt. Until that it will do it’s best to keep you upright. If it’s at it’s limits, the pedals will indeed feel soft.

 

Sounds like a 48km/h tilt-back might serve you quite well to save you from possible further ”clueless” moments. That’s exactly why I have it on.

 

*sigh* We indeed are. It’s been the same since much slower models. The blame for people turning off the tilt-back on their 100V wheels does turn to GW quite a bit due to this. What’s the point in paying all that extra to have a wheel that feels and performs (almost) the same?

Awesome post as always Mrelwood! Very enjoyable reading. Thank you!

[ZenRyder]

11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

*sigh* We indeed are. It’s been the same since much slower models. The blame for people turning off the tilt-back on their 100V wheels does turn to GW quite a bit due to this. What’s the point in paying all that extra to have a wheel that feels and performs (almost) the same?

Why don't they let the user set the tilt back where we want it?? If I want to set it at 56 km/h (35 mph) and stay below 39 mph, then I should be able to do that. Instead Gotway says "It's all or nothing!". OK 48 km/h, whatever.

There is Gotway, then the...

Somebody needs to let Gotway know that the customer's way is always the right way. At least they let us turn it off, unlike KingSong.

[mrelwood]

8 hours ago, ZenRyder said:

At least they let us turn it off, unlike KingSong.

This is changing though, 16X already lets you go faster than the wheel is capable of. 

[Mono]

17 hours ago, ZenRyder said:

Why don't they let the user set the tilt back where we want it?

Sure, that's how it is on my InMotion, a slider which can be set to any speed between zero and a given maximum.

[travsformation]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

This is changing though, 16X already lets you go faster than the wheel is capable of. 

MSX / Nikola: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 50 km/h, and can ride faster than that at your own risk

18L/XL: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 50 km/h. End of story (If you want to ride faster, buy a GW) 

16X: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 40 km/h, and can ride at 50 km/h at your own risk

Edited December 5, 2019 by travsformation

[Dmitry Zlotsky]

New here - thoroughly entertaining read!

Getting back to the post that spawned this thread - the hard lean/cutout on ks16x - my wheel had exact same failure at 27mph, luckily (for me) under another rider.

Now I'm facing (and dreading) the perspective of swapping the board for the newer one (batch 2 -> batch 3).

Did anyone here do that, was that hard and is that possible to get help as my both hands are left ones and my faith in my skills have been long debunked.

[DjPanJan]

13 minutes ago, Dmitry Zlotsky said:

in my skills 

Give more details S/N etc. You make bluetooth patch? Fall with or without music? gps speed or app speed ? baterry % weight rider. 

[ZenRyder]

On 12/5/2019 at 8:53 AM, travsformation said:

MSX / Nikola: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 50 km/h, and can ride faster than that at your own risk

18L/XL: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 50 km/h. End of story (If you want to ride faster, buy a GW) 

16X: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 40 km/h, and can ride at 50 km/h at your own risk

I disagree.

We always ride at our own risk. There are a ton of things that can impact your ride and cause an overlean. However, the MSX/Nikola wheels (especially the 100v) can be ridden up to 62-64 km/h. They are not the same as the 18L/XL and 16X. It is well documented that they have a 12-14 km/h higher rated speed. You're trying to say apples and oranges are all round, so they are exactly the same.

[Dmitry Zlotsky]

1 hour ago, DjPanJan said:

Give more details S/N etc. You make bluetooth patch? Fall with or without music? gps speed or app speed ? baterry % weight rider. 

Hey - thanks for the ask

Rider's weigh - 145 lbs

Battery - 77%

Speed - 27.8 mph

Music - not sure, BT is fixed (methinks, 2nd batch)

How's S/N important (locating now)

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

1 hour ago, Dmitry Zlotsky said:

Now I'm facing (and dreading) the perspective of swapping the board for the newer one (batch 2 -> batch 3).

Did anyone here do that, was that hard and is that possible to get help as my both hands are left ones and my faith in my skills have been long debunked.

Yes, I changed my board from V1.4 (1st batch) to V1.5 and afterwards I had a completely new wheel. 

I found the exchange easy, but fortunately I was also born with 2 right hands and technically skilled.  But I think you should be able to do it with two left hands and our help.

I rode 1200 km with it until it suddenly started to lean forward at high speed.

With the new V1.5 board I have now done almost 700 km and I am very excited. Not only that the problem is gone, it is a completely different riding experience.

But I can't say if my old board had a defect from the beginning or if there is really such a huge difference between V1.4 and V1.5. 

[Dmitry Zlotsky]

3 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Yes, I changed my board from V1.4 (1st batch) to V1.5 and afterwards I had a completely new wheel. 

I found the exchange easy, but fortunately I was also born with 2 right hands and technically skilled.  But I think you should be able to do it with two left hands and our help.

I rode 1200 km with it until it suddenly started to lean forward at high speed.

With the new V1.5 board I have now done almost 700 km and I am very excited. Not only that the problem is gone, it is a completely different riding experience.

But I can't say if my old board had a defect from the beginning or if there is really such a huge difference between V1.4 and V1.5. 

Very encouraging, thanks!

Will keep you posted!

[DjPanJan]

2 hours ago, Dmitry Zlotsky said:

 

How's S/N important (locating now) no just batch.

Witch firmware you are?

Looks like typical overlean he ignores beep propably and whell no have enouch power to tiltback.

Or he hit obstacle and motor give up propably because low % battery or he go from incline acelerate too hard.

This is only my teory i no own Ks16x. Setup new conservative tiltback/safety setings and enjoy you wheel.

[Dmitry Zlotsky]

30 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

Witch firmware you are?

Looks like typical overlean he ignores beep propably and whell no have enouch power to tiltback.

Or he hit obstacle and motor give up propably because low % battery or he go from incline acelerate too hard.

This is only my teory i no own Ks16x. Setup new conservative tiltback/safety setings and enjoy you wheel.

FW 1.07

What you describe is very likely. I wheel enjoy it (clever wordplay) - Thanks

[travsformation]

5 hours ago, ZenRyder said:

On 12/5/2019 at 5:53 PM, travsformation said:

MSX / Nikola: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 50 km/h, and can ride faster than that at your own risk

18L/XL: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 50 km/h. End of story (If you want to ride faster, buy a GW) 

16X: Advertised as 50 km/h, you can safely ride at 40 km/h, and can ride at 50 km/h at your own risk

I disagree.

We always ride at our own risk. There are a ton of things that can impact your ride and cause an overlean. However, the MSX/Nikola wheels (especially the 100v) can be ridden up to 62-64 km/h. They are not the same as the 18L/XL and 16X. It is well documented that they have a 12-14 km/h higher rated speed. You're trying to say apples and oranges are all round, so they are exactly the same.

I actually think my comment was fairly self-explanatory. I specifically stated that the MSX & Nikola (which are in a category of their own) can go faster than advertised, whereas the 18L & XL cannot. But the point of the comment was that the 16X is the only wheel that should be ridden slower than advertised to be on the safe side.

In any case, the comment was meant to be humorous, don't read into it too much