Where do you ride mostly? Street or Sidewalk?

[LanghamP]

On 11/16/2019 at 6:15 PM, Mono said:

And you are not alone, obviously:

In his spring 2001 article, John Forester argues that separate facilities for cycling are unnecessary and dangerous.  He claims that cycling in mixed traffic on roadways is far safer than any sort of bike lane or bike path. Thus, he strongly opposes the current efforts at federal, state, and local government levels to construct systems of bike paths and lanes. Furthermore, Forester opposes special provisions of any kind for cyclists, such as turning lanes at intersections or priority traffic lights. His recommendation is that all cyclists be forced to cycle on the roadway and learn to operate their bikes as they would motor vehicles. Forester calls this concept “vehicular cycling.”

Although Forester makes a number of theoretical arguments why bikeways are unsafe...

http://bikeped.rutgers.edu/ImageFolio43_files/gallery/Bicycling/Documents/Pucher_2001_Safety_Bikeways_v_Roads.pdf

John Forester is just an old fart who has been proven wrong again and again, but just doubles down on his false beliefs. Vehicular bicycling, where cars and bikes share the road, don't work when bicyclists aren't very fast and drivers aren't specifically trained not give bicyclists the same rights as drivers have.

NYC is awesome. If you are in a separated bike lane and you get doored by a driver and you end up in the road, then you get ticketed. If you are avoiding doors by staying in the road then you'll get ticketed for not using the bike lane.

https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-voids-ticket-issued-doored-cyclist-lying-street

[null]

Bikelane

[winterwheel]

Most of our newer bike lanes have a median that separates them from the road. Bike traffic has gone up exponentially since they went in. I use those in inclement weather. On nice days I ride with cars on the main roads so that people can see that there is another new option for getting around, to get cars used to driving around wheel riders, and to make the case that wheels are better suited to sharing roads with cars than bikes, for many reasons but primarily because they have motors and are better able to keep pace with traffic.

[ir_fuel]

I think it all depends on the speed.

Bike lanes aren't suited for anyone going 25+mph. No even cyclists.

[seage]

5 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

I think it all depends on the speed.

Bike lanes aren't suited for anyone going 25+mph. No even cyclists.

40km/h in a bike lane? Where do you live that people are flooring it that hard on average in a bike lane? I see most people going that fast usually ride a mix of bike lane and traffic. But at least here, thats not even close to the average speed. 

[winterwheel]

It's not at all unusual to see cyclists doing 40kmh in our bike lanes. My cruising speed is in the 40-44 km/h range and I'm just a smidge faster than some of them, quite a bit slower where they have a downgrade. 

Edited December 25, 2019 by winterwheel

[seage]

On 12/25/2019 at 2:29 PM, winterwheel said:

It's not at all unusual to see cyclists doing 40kmh in our bike lanes. My cruising speed is in the 40-44 km/h range and I'm just a smidge faster than some of them, quite a bit slower where they have a downgrade. 

Not that I dont see it. People have passed me while im averaging the same speeds as yourself.

But i actually misread @ir_fuel's post as them saying that its not suitable for anyone whos NOT going 24mph or over. My bad!!! 

I am guilty of going above that on a clear lane, but usually i'll hit the street at that point. 

[Hsiang]

On 11/17/2019 at 12:28 AM, houseofjob said:

This street vs bike path vs sidewalk debate is heavily dependent on the country/culture I think, ie the likelihood of bad actors.

In my neck of the world in NYC, no one is to be trusted, but the cars are much more predictable and restricted in movement than cyclists and pedestrians. And unfortunately, our bike lanes double for 1. delivery truck double parking, 2. pedestrians who cross without looking, 3. Cyclists going the wrong way, 4. Hotel car dropoff. Combine that with the fact that our bike lanes have no borders, sometimes disappear randomly, and for many stretches have some awful pavement/potholes, and this is why we in NYC stick more to the roads amongst the cars. Traffic jams are a blessing, restricting car movement even further so we can whiteline past them.

 

@Nitecrawler

I've found over my 4 year, nearing 20 wheels owned experience that my street/sidewalk ratio is heavily dependent on the max speed of the wheel.

22mph and below max speed means I'm seeking out sidewalks and bike paths as much as possible, avoiding the often 30mph moving car traffic.

25-31mph max means I'll start mixing in more street car traffic, but be more cautious, letting the car traffic pass me to avoid holding up traffic.

Above 31mph max means I'm maximizing street car traffic as much as possible (almost no sidewalks), often overtaking and passing cars.

As much as we argue about riding style (hugger rules!) I agree with Chris 100% when it come to riding in traffic.

A lady was recently killed on Broadway when a truck reverse for 2 blocks before hitting her. she was 100% in the right but unfortunately it doesn't help her one bit.

I slow down even when I have the light since I trust no one. I also mix with the traffic when I am above 20mph, more so on the monster since I have additional head room to speed away when I encountered a reckless are angry driver.

I also ride on the sidewalk quite a bit; I find that as long as I remain respectful, and go no faster than jogging speed (crawling speed around kids) no one minds, not even NYPD.

And yes, very much cultural based, and I totally get that some of the things we do here in NYC will not be acceptable else where. 

[houseofjob]

14 minutes ago, Hsiang said:

As much as we argue about riding style (hugger rules!) I agree with Chris 100% when it come to riding in traffic.

Again, why are you responding to me? 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

And yes, very much cultural based, and I totally get that some of the things we do here in NYC will not be acceptable else where. 

NYC doesn't allow EUC or scooters with a throttle.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/12/26/21038257/electric-bikes-scooters-veto-illegal-new-york-andrew-cuomo-ban

It also doesn't treat bicyclists as vehicles, as riding outside a NYC bike lane if available is illegal. If a bike lane is blocked, it's illegal to move off it.

It's also illegal to get doored, that is, if a bicyclist who is in the bike lane gets doored, then he gets a ticket for not staying in the bike lane.

However, most people don't realize how dangerous motor vehicles are, as per NYC street blog...

It is always worth remembering: there are roughly 230,000 injury- and non-injury-causing crashes in New York City every year, roughly 630 per day. Roughly 60,000 people are injured in car crashes every year, with 200 to 300 dying every year.

[winterwheel]

Just as an aside on the legal/illegal thing...bicycles are illegal on our (Edmonton) sidewalks and yet cyclists ride on sidewalks all the time, generally for the same reason everyone else does -- they don't feel safe riding with cars in areas where there are no bike lanes. Police give out an average of 300 tickets per year (in a city of about 1M people). Most of these are concentrated in low-income areas, so likely tickets are being given for other reasons than safety concerns.

Many e-bikes are illegal (being considered to be motor vehicles) according to the highway traffic act, and yet they are becoming quite popular here.

Scooter-share came to our city this year and were specifically prohibited from riding on sidewalks. Yet virtually everyone  who rode one rode on the sidewalk at some point, despite a substantial campaign by the  city to stop this. Again for the same reason, only a crazy person would ride an 18km/h scooter on a street with 50km/h cars.

It's in this environment that we choose whether and where to ride our wheels.

[null]

France recently updated their transportation law to include PEVs, mostly in reaction to sharing operators.

PEVs are allowed on bike lanes and roads up to 50km/h. That’s ok IMO. The stupid part is you’re supposed to be locked to 25km/h max, while most city sprees are 30km/h. So in stead of letting us follow the flow, we’re constantly endangered by cars passing.

[RockyTop]

5 minutes ago, null said:

France recently updated their transportation law to include PEVs, mostly in reaction to sharing operators.

PEVs are allowed on bike lanes and roads up to 50km/h. That’s ok IMO. The stupid part is you’re supposed to be locked to 25km/h max, while most city sprees are 30km/h. So in stead of letting us follow the flow, we’re constantly endangered by cars passing.

When you say locked to 25km/h, what does that mean? If I were told that I had a speed limit of 25km/h I would set my wheel to tilt at 30km/h so that I can ride at 25km/h without tilting. Are they checking your settings?

[null]

11 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

When you say locked to 25km/h, what does that mean? If I were told that I had a speed limit of 25km/h I would set my wheel to tilt at 30km/h so that I can ride at 25km/h without tilting. Are they checking your settings?

That part is particularly stupid, the véhicule is supposed to not be able to go over 25km/h, (not clear how) and the user must not be able to unlock it. This, in itself, is ridiculous: for safety you sometimes need to be able to go faster, to get away from a dangerous situation or for large crossings with cars. To top it of the fine for not being locked to 25 (even if you don’t go faster) is 1500€, the same as for a car driving 100km/h in a 50km/h zone. Talk about disproportionate.

Luckily they never check, but it leaves you at the mercy of the cop who for some reason want to mess with you..

Edited December 28, 2019 by null

[RockyTop]

24 minutes ago, null said:

the véhicule is supposed to not be able to go over 25km/h

Can you imagine a car not being legal if it can go over the speed limit? 

Should we put speed limiters on bicycles? Maybe electric brakes that apply when you hit 25? 

We should mechanically limit the speed on the politician’s cars. 

well? At least they are somewhat legal. 

[mrelwood]

I was surprised to read three pages of replies without a hint to check the local law, since it is fundamentally different in different places. No-one still hasn’t replied with the obvious:

#1: Check what the local law says about where to ride PLEVs and bicycles. I’m not saying to blindly follow it, but it is something you need to know.

 

#2: No matter where you ride, most drivers, riders and pedestrians have no idea how fast or slow you can accelerate, brake or even steer. Even if you are seen, they might react dangerously. It’s always crucial to

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Be thinking ahead.

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No car is expecting a THIRD lane going as fast or faster than them on the bike lane/shoulder.

We were taught early on at the motorcycle licence lessons that we should never trust others giving us the right of way, even if they should yield. This is also crucial. Car drivers don’t have much invested, crashing in city traffic is rarely physically harmful for them. Everyone else though, it’s our asses on the line. I don’t tend to trust a stranger with my life, and absolutely will not if the stranger is behind a steering wheel.

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you better hope a car isn’t side by side with you at that point or you’ll have to slam the brakes

Which is why I ride in a way that I don’t have to ”hope” much from others.

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When I’m in a bike lane with car congestion, I either ride at a predictably slow average cyclist pace of 10mph (good time to start texting 😄) which is slow enough to be able to react to drivers cutting you off when making turns, drivers coming out of alleys or driveways, and cars that are edged out into the bike lane.

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I slow down even when I have the light since I trust no one.

 

#3: Local behaviour and habits. They vary a lot already between different cities, let alone countries. NYC for example seems to be a hellhole of everything traffic related, so NYC EUC riders might not have tips that would translate all that well to a peaceful Canadian village. Riding like everyone expects from a bicycle/PLEV is much safer than following the rules very closely.

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If you're in a small town/village like me, you'll have no problem riding on the road tho. Its visiting the major cities that the game changes. 

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You’re so blinded by looking at the data and studies that you forget that none of them apply to US

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And yes, very much cultural based, and I totally get that some of the things we do here in NYC will not be acceptable else where.

 

 

In EU it’s common that eBikes and PEVs may not have propulsion from a motor when riding above 25km/h. For EUCs this is obviously a hard speed limit, but eBikes can be pedalled without motor assistance just as fast as regular bicycles. And the regulation sort of makes some sense too. Would you consider a 30km/h segway or a hoverboard safe for the rider or others? I don't.

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Can you imagine a car not being legal if it can go over the speed limit? 

Yes, if it is allowed to drive on streets without a drivers’ licence or any regulations related to manufacturing, features, etc. In which case I would cap the speed limit to city centre speed limits. Or lower.

On 11/14/2019 at 11:51 PM, Darrell Wesh said:

What fun is there riding slowly on the sidewalk??

Come on now, many of us have started with slow wheels yet having the times of our lives for months!

Edited December 29, 2019 by mrelwood

[LanghamP]

Riding a bicycle in NYC, along with other highly congested cities where single occupancy vehicles are moving very slowly, is pure pleasure with an urban bicycle (and presumably an EUC), and feels very safe, because the collision speeds are extremely low.

On the other hand my borrowed (expensive) urban bicycle had this insane NYC bicycle chain. When the owner of the bicycle handed me this chain, I thought she was joking, but apparently even that bicycle chain only has an expected life of under an hour in NYC.

Anyway, slow moving traffic in congested cities aren't bad because collision speeds between us and drivers is quite low. On the other hand any urban area, village or small town, which has high speed stroads, is deadly to bicyclists.