Side pads to accelerate

[Mono]

Some people have reported to use side pads to accelerate more quickly. Now I was wondering how this could work from the physics perspective. To solicit more torque from the wheel the rider must provide the respective counter force. Now, a torque or a force in general cannot be generated out to thin air. Consider the ways how we could push/force a door open.

1. lean against it, thereby using gravitational force
2. push against it, thereby using the floor as fixed reference and trying to increase the diagonal distance between the feet on the floor and hand or body on the door
3. swing the arms or legs towards it or run towards it, thereby using built up kinetic energy to generate an impulse force

Any other ideas? It seems the 2nd point is not available in the context of riding an EUC. The third point suggest that windmilling the arms backwards (opposite to the help-I-am-faceplanting forward flailing) would provide additional counter force to accelerate.

On the other hand, applying a force on the side pads instead of the pedals has in general the possible advantage of an increased leverage compared to pedals. That is, we could use the gravitational force more effectively to generate torque. Is this actually the main mechanism?

 

[Tazarinho]

Yet the principle is closest to 2. You brace yourself in order to be able to push harder. In this case against the pad instead of the floor, the floor (your toes) being the place where you push against, in this case.

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Tazarinho said:

Yet the principle is closest to 2. You brace yourself in order to be able to push harder. In this case against the pad instead of the floor, the floor (your toes) being the place where you push against, in this case.

The pad is the door in the example: that is what we need to apply the force to. The pedals is also what the door is in the example, say closer to the hinge.

If you use the pads as a fixed reference point to push the pedals or vice versa, you just apply a force between the shell and pedal arms, but that does not generate a torque on the wheel. You also would need to push backwards on the pads to get a forward force on the pedals or vice versa to be in scenario 2. If you are able generate a torque on the wheel by "bracing" you are in scenario 3, but I don't see exactly how to do this most efficiently. But then, bracing also pushes the upper body ahead of the wheel which is simply a way of leaning, that is, use of gravitational force. The pads may just be a way to prevent that you fall off in front of the wheel then.

[BarrettJ]

I think that even though it feels like I'm gripping the side pads to push down harder on the pedals what I'm actually doing is gripping the wheel tighter which is planting my feet/legs more firmly and giving a more solid base to lean forward from (which I think is just another way of wording your last two sentences)

Edited October 14, 2019 by BarrettJ

[Tazarinho]

Ideally you would brace backwards in order to push forward. Either the pad is behind your leg:

└─┘● →
and you are able to push forward

or it's in the side and you compress

│              │
└─/ ●\ ─┘
              \
                ┘
and you're able to push forward and to the side, which is not optimal, but still better than nothing.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Tazarinho
Clarification

[Mono]

Turns out, I don't really have an idea what "brace oneself" or "brace" in this context actually means. I seem to know bracing only from the safety instructions on airplanes.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Mono

[LanghamP]

You could temporarily make the wheel smaller while accelerating. Everyone raves about 14 incher's torque, so why not chop an inch or two off the circumference of the wheel right when you need heavy acceleration?

By the way, there is a rider here that does do that while not quite understanding how that works. I will admit that trying it out does dramatically increase acceleration (but not distance!).

[mrelwood]

20 hours ago, Mono said:

The pads may just be a way to prevent that you fall off in front of the wheel then

Stability is perhaps the key point of the powerpads. Standing on one’s toes on the floor, versus kneeling to the edge of a couch. Much more stability, and one can also shift the CoG further forward than without the couch.

13 hours ago, LanghamP said:

You could temporarily make the wheel smaller while accelerating. Everyone raves about 14 incher's torque, so why not chop an inch or two off the circumference of the wheel right when you need heavy acceleration?

By the way, there is a rider here that does do that while not quite understanding how that works. I will admit that trying it out does dramatically increase acceleration (but not distance!).

Are you perhaps referring to the pumping motion that is supposed to break the laws of physics (but only if riding on the Gotway soft riding mode though...  )

[Mono]

17 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Are you perhaps referring to the pumping motion that is supposed to break the laws of physics

TBH, I didn't have the slightest clue what this was about 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

TBH, I didn't have the slightest clue what this was about 

A few guys at the forum are convinced that pumping the pedals or swaying from left to right results in a much better, faster and safer acceleration. It sounded like LanghamP was referring to that but I’m not sure.

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Are you perhaps referring to the pumping motion that is supposed to break the laws of physics (but only if riding on the Gotway soft riding mode though... 

You don't need soft riding mode. The reason pumping gives you greater acceleration is entirely attributed to the considerably less circumference of the tire along its edge compared to its center. Any motorcyclist would know this, because RPMs rise when gently bending a bike into a corner.

I do now find myself using pumping motion for quick acceleration from stationary or slow, or for semi-hard braking.

 

[Mono]

Interesting. How much one could decrease the circumference this way? I don't think one can "pump" more than 10mm, that is 5% for a wheel of 20cm radius (roughly the outer radius of a 16" tire). I also wouldn't be surprised if 5mm is closer to reality. This let me think that the physical excitement about pumping is at least as relevant as this effect.

However, pumping adds momentarily quite a bit to the gravitational down force and hence can dynamically increase torque (and will decrease it in the up swing phase, I don't know whether these effects necessarily sum to zero).

Edited October 15, 2019 by Mono

[Declan acoustic-unicyclist]

The acceleration really comes from point #2 the most.

I am able to get 5 beeps on full battery with my MSX, using the pads and solely applying force in this way.

 

It works so effectively because you have greater leverage, by pressing the wheel down on a point that is near to it's circumference, whereas, the pedals are close to the center, a given force does not cause the wheel to accelerate nearly as much.

 

[redfoxdude]

What I know is that, for me, it makes it so that, rather than putting more weight on your toes and using your feet, ankle and calves to put force down on the front of the pedals, it lets me put pressure onto the pads instead, which reduces the amount of muscular effort and fatigue. This is especially noticeable when I'm climbing steep hills! I really like side pads.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by redfoxdude
Update photo display sizing

[Mark Lee]

31 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

What I know is that, for me, it makes it so that, rather than putting more weight on your toes and using your feet, ankle and calves to put force down on the front of the pedals, it lets me put pressure onto the pads instead, which reduces the amount of muscular effort and fatigue. This is especially noticeable when I'm climbing steep hills! I really like side pads.

 

Any chance you could produce and sell your EUC stands and other inventions?

[EvoKnvl]

58 minutes ago, redfoxdude said:

What I know is that, for me, it makes it so that, rather than putting more weight on your toes and using your feet, ankle and calves to put force down on the front of the pedals, it lets me put pressure onto the pads instead, which reduces the amount of muscular effort and fatigue. This is especially noticeable when I'm climbing steep hills! I really like side pads.

 

As @Mark Lee asked above.  Is this something you produce? I'd be really interested in a set.

[ZenRyder]

1 hour ago, Declan acoustic-unicyclist said:

It works so effectively because you have greater leverage, by pressing the wheel down on a point that is near to it's circumference, whereas, the pedals are close to the center, a given force does not cause the wheel to accelerate nearly as much.

I think you're right about the leverage, but I don't think the point's relation to the circumference makes much difference. Applying pressure with just your feet is like holding a short wrench to tilt the wheel forward. But using your shins as leverage you are able to generate more torque on the wheel's angle than you can with only your toes. This pictures explains it.

Using your shins is like using a wrench with a longer handle, it's as simple as that. Your lower leg is the "moment arm".

Some have argued that you should shift your weight entirely and only stand straight to achieve proper form. However, it's faster to tilt/torque just the peddles than it is to shift your whole weight gradually. That's why most riders who win EUC races use the pads to accelerate faster.

[Declan acoustic-unicyclist]

5 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

like holding a short wrench

I completely agree with you here, but there is also the effect of the front of the wheel being pushed down harder due where the force is being applied to it. 

Regardless, it grants you the ability to keep your weight completely upright, while still accelerating with a great amount of power **OR** put all your weight forward and force with your shins for the maximum possible acceleration 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Declan acoustic-unicyclist

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

Interesting. How much one could decrease the circumference this way? I don't think one can "pump" more than 10mm, that is 5% for a wheel of 20cm radius (roughly the outer radius of a 16" tire). I also wouldn't be surprised if 5mm is closer to reality. This let me think that the physical excitement about pumping is at least as relevant as this effect.

I actually think pumping adds little acceleration, but it allows you to accelerate a bit harder in the future. I mean, the problem with pumping is that you are constantly going back on the center of the tire.

My experience is that when the wheel is rolled into the edge of the tire, the whole wheel gets behind you a little more. That is, a 16 incher acts more like a 14-14.5 incher.

I read about the pumping and was very skeptical, but I have wheels and pavement, so why not try it? Damn, it actually works, but why?! Oh, that's right; the wheel is effectively a smaller wheel when rolled into its side. It has nothing to do with Magical Gotway Settings.

Pumping is still useless. You're just covering more distance and you will eventually drag a pedal and crash (guilty). It might have a tiny bit of use for super lazy riders, because instead of leaning forward more you just twist more.

Still, the science behind <useless> pumping is solid; by reducing the effective circumference of the wheel you get the better acceleration a smaller wheel affords you. 

In my opinion, really long footpads (OW style), Kuji Rolls, or a stick through the wheel are better solutions, being actual solutions instead of some ridiculous Salsa move.

[Matthieu Thegrey]

There is still a way to accelerate/decelerate as strong as you will dare: just lower your gravity center by really folding your knees.

No need to modify the wheel, and much better control / fine tuning and in the case of a bump / hole, you're very anchored to the wheel.

 

Never tried kuji pads but I can feel it probably would obstruct me if i want to go really low?!

Edited October 15, 2019 by Matthieu Thegrey

[Declan acoustic-unicyclist]

1 minute ago, Matthieu Thegrey said:

There is still a way to accelerate/decelerate as strong as you will dare: just lower your gravity center by really folding your knees.

No need to modify the wheel, and much better control / fine tuning and in the case of a bump / hole, you're very anchored to the wheel.

 

Never tried kuji pads but I can feel it probably would obstruct me if i want to go really low?!

They do not obstruct at all

The trouble with your method is that you will be forcing your face into the pavement if you wind up coming off the wheel.

[Matthieu Thegrey]

4 minutes ago, Declan acoustic-unicyclist said:

They do not obstruct at all

The trouble with your method is that you will be forcing your face into the pavement if you wind up coming off the wheel.

No i fact, it's quite the opposite you're much more stable. It needs training but you can really apply huge power / huge control / huge stability, much much better than anything you could do straight in my experience.

 

this is abut braking this way, but you can do the same for acceleration: 

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Matthieu Thegrey

[Mono]

37 minutes ago, Matthieu Thegrey said:

There is still a way to accelerate/decelerate as strong as you will dare: just lower your gravity center by really folding your knees.

I understand that body posture is important for control and stability and bent knees are quite effective to accelerate.

However, I can't possibly see how the height of the CoG changes the limits of possible acceleration. The (conventional) limit is by placing the CoG (accounting for acceleration and drag) right over the tip of the pedals. This can be done independently of the body posture.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Mono

[Matthieu Thegrey]

6 minutes ago, Mono said:

I understand the body posture is important for control and stability and bent knees are quite effective to accelerate.

However, I can't possibly see how the height of the CoG changes the limits of possible acceleration. The (conventional) limit is by placing the CoG (accounting for acceleration and drag) right over the tip of the pedals. This can be done independently of the body posture.

You're right it doesn't changes the limit of the wheel. But it changes the control you have in this. Yes you can brake or accelerate very hard straight. But never as precisely. And if you hit a bump or a hole at this moment,  you are more prone to lose balance as :

1/ youre are not grounded but extended to put max leverage force.

2/ You are already on an unstable stance.

 

Try to take a friend and make sumo like (you push him he has to resist). He HAS to crouch to have better resistance. It's the same for a bump/hole whatever...

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Matthieu Thegrey

[mrelwood]

 

5 hours ago, Matthieu Thegrey said:

Never tried kuji pads but I can feel it probably would obstruct me if i want to go really low?!

Spreading one’s knees a bit while crouching bypasses the powerpads. Although, I like to keep my pads enough forward that I will have to crouch to reach them. Even at the steepest of inclines I still  have to bend my knees to reach them, so I can keep the CoG low.