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mike_bike_kite

Is there a code of conduct?

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In the UK we have regular articles in the news where we're told we need to pick lower carbon forms of transport and it seems like EUC's should be part of the solution but instead we find that EUC's are illegal here and semi illegal in many other countries. For a while I wondered why that was then I managed to click on 3 youtube videos in a row where EUC riders are riding as fast as they can either in bicycle lanes or in parks. The last video had a guy riding as fast as he could down a narrow wooded path, his speed prominently on display all accompanied by the sound of rock music and his speed limiter beeping away. People had to jump of his path and he even managed to hit a dog but obviously didn't stop. 

Should there be a "code of conduct" that people can at least understand if not follow?

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23 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Should there be a "code of conduct" that people can at least understand if not follow?

If you kill someone, then you have one day to say goodbye to everyone before being executed. It doesn't matter if it's murder or manslaughter, you take a life then you pay with your own.

Would that make people's actions more deliberate?

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3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Should there be a "code of conduct" that people can at least understand if not follow?

Unfortunately there's no code of conduct for stupidity.  I'm pretty sure there isn't.  Just look at some of the car drivers in your area and mine.  If I had a dashcam, I'd post up some pretty crazy antics of people driving dangerously and all sorts of road rage.  It's crazy out there!  :eff04a58a6:  Besides, people who do those things likely wouldn't spend a half second reading a "code of conduct" and even less attempting to follow it.  :efeff54d4a:  It's just not in their nature.

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17 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

EUC's used to be in a legal grey area but have now been made illegal.

As I have said before, euc's were never in a grey area. They had always fitted into the 'motorized vehicle' classification, just as segways and eboards had done since inception.

Just because euc's are now specifically added as examples to the ever growing list of vehicles as technology advances, doesnt mean they were any less illegal or 'grey' than before.

Some people seem to think that if a vehicle isnt specifically listed on the .gov pages it's grey. This isnt the way to look at law. Reading the actual wording of the law is all you need to understand whether the vehicle in question is legal or not. Jet powered rollerblades arent shown as an example (yet) but I can assure you they arent legal either.

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45 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Jet powered rollerblades arent shown as an example (yet) but I can assure you they arent legal either.

Damn! do you suppose it's too late to can cancel my amazon order?

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42 minutes ago, Planemo said:

As I have said before, euc's were never in a grey area. They had always fitted into the 'motorized vehicle' classification, just as segways and eboards had done since inception.

Just because euc's are now specifically added as examples to the ever growing list of vehicles as technology advances, doesnt mean they were any less illegal or 'grey' than before.

Some people seem to think that if a vehicle isnt specifically listed on the .gov pages it's grey. This isnt the way to look at law. Reading the actual wording of the law is all you need to understand whether the vehicle in question is legal or not. Jet powered rollerblades arent shown as an example (yet) but I can assure you they arent legal either.

So everything is illegal until your government gives you permission. 

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No. In the case of vehicles, there are classes. If your vehicle doesnt/cant fit into a class because its so wacky then its illegal. The classes are there to prevent crazy shit from driving on the public highway. Crazy shit that could potentially harm eithers, either in the case of a collision or its simply too unsafe to have around others (yes I know how many cars kill people, thats not the point).

If there wasnt a framework to adhere to we would be living a life of being surrounded by Mad Max vehicles. Now whether you would be happy with that or not is up to you, but I can understand why the government has to provide some direction as to what people can and cant just slap on the road.

I am not for one minute saying I agree with this when the same laws/class system outlaws euc's, I am just trying to give an insight as to why rules have been put in place. :)

I had imagined that most developed countries around the world would have similar restrictions. We just need the UK to wake up to the viability of euc's.

 

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2 minutes ago, Planemo said:

No. In the case of vehicles, there are classes. If your vehicle doesnt/cant fit into a class because its so wacky then its illegal. The classes are there to prevent crazy shit from driving on the public highway. Crazy shit that could potentially harm eithers, either in the case of a collision or its simply too unsafe to have around others (yes I know how many cars kill people, thats not the point).

If there wasnt a framework to adhere to we would be living a life of being surrounded by Mad Max vehicles. Now whether you would be happy with that or not is up to you, but I can understand why the government has to provide some direction as to what people can and cant just slap on the road.

I am not for one minute saying I agree with this when the same laws/class system outlaws euc's, I am just trying to give an insight as to why rules have been put in place. :)

I had imagined that most developed countries around the world would have similar restrictions. We just need the UK to wake up to the viability of euc's.

 

Thanks,   :thumbup:    I am OK with that as long as WE the people of said government control said government. I just think that the government needs to prove its case on the danger being an actual danger and that the danger is greater than the alternative.  

In my state EUCs are defined as bicycles and it is illegal to discriminate against them in any way you would not discriminate a bicycle. Until they have proof that they are more dangerous than a bicycle they can't/should not make laws against them.  If you say that three people have died or have been killed by EUCs you would have to look up the number on bicycles to see if they did any better by percentage. 

 " If it saves just one life '" ..... we should do what ? sit at home and do nothing? die of inactivity? 

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15 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Until they have proof that they are more dangerous than a bicycle they can't/should not make laws against them.

I get what you are saying, in the UK its kind of the other way round. Its up to the user to prove that the vehicle (if unclassified) isnt dangerous. Its called the SVA (Single Vehicle Approval). Get your vehicle through an SVA and you're golden. Admittedly the SVA focus is on mechanical and legal suitability but some very weird stuff can and has passed in the UK such as motorized sofas and dodgem cars.

I take my hat off to your state for being so chilled, allowing everything and just 'seeing what happens'. Personally, even despite being an avid euc fan I would struggle to accept they are the same or less dangerous than a bicycle. Dont tell your state governor that though :cry2:

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So is there a path in the UK that's likely to succeed that would make these things legal? Electric bicycles are fine, electric motorcycles are fine and so are electric cars and trains. 

Electric bicycles in the UK are limited to 15mph to be legal. If your bicycle goes faster than this then you need to be registered, insured and taxed plus you also need a drivers license. I'm not sure if any have been declared as faster though. I'm pretty sure the one electric bicycle I did own did 20mph but that's another matter.  There's also a strong argument that EUC's need the extra power for safety though being able to sustain a max speed of 30mph might be harder to argue. Maybe something could also be argued for being allowed to go faster if you have full protection and a license and allowing riders to purchase 3rd party insurance (insuring others rather than yourself and your machine). 

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21 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

So is there a path in the UK that's likely to succeed that would make these things legal?

We have covered this before on the forum but in a nutshell it's unlikely an EUC could pass SVA. Lack of 'proper' braking for a start. Theres a whole host of other requirements that are unlikely if not impossible to be met. The best hope we have is for the UK gov to provide a specific exemption as per ebikes. Like you say though, it won't be as easy to implement due to the requirement for power to self-balance. How much power to (safely) allow for this? For all body weights? It's a tricky one. Maybe they would see sense and just say a max of 1000w (to cover most uses) at 15mph max. That's all assuming of course that they feel a single wheel is ever going to be 'safe'.

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51 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

There's also a strong argument that EUC's need the extra power for safety though being able to sustain a max speed of 30mph might be harder to argue.

How about the need to outrun dogs? ... seems like a good reason to me. :popcorn:

You can email the DfT (email: futureofmobility@dft.gov.uk) to ask them about their plans for legalising PLEVs ... the more emails they get the more they will perceive that there is a real demand for these vehicles. They did carry out a review earlier this year, but as yet no indication of a change to legislation. I emailed them last year, but the more emails they get the better.

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40 minutes ago, Nic said:

You can email the DfT (email: futureofmobility@dft.gov.uk) to ask them about their plans for legalising PLEVs ...

Nice one. I will do that right now. Can't hurt :)

 

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Before I pop this off via email, can anyone think of any bonus points I haven't covered?

===========================================================

Dear Sirs,

 

I am writing to you to ask what considerations are currently being discussed around the use of PLEV’s (Personal Light Electric Vehicles). Specifically, I will refer to the EUC (Electric UniCycle).

 

Having now used an EUC for some time I am absolutely confident of the long term viability of them for personal transport. Indeed, I am struggling to think of a more efficient means of green powered transport that has the benefits of:

 

  1. Portability

  2. The ability to carry on/off public transport

  3. The ability to easily store at place of work

  4. Minimal carbon footprint

  5. Zero emissions

  6. Zero noise

  7. Minimal size

  8. Affordability

     

    The nearest equivalent that is currently legal is the electric bicycle which I also have much experience with but as I am sure you will agree, they are unable to meet at least four of the points above, and as a result are not viable for many people despite their obvious benefits.

     

    I believe EUC’s to be the smallest, most ideal, simple, convenient means for a person to travel under power. Further, current models are capable of around 70 miles before recharge which takes them beyond the ‘last mile’ use into a full means of transport for most people from home to work (and beyond if required) thereby negating the need for any internal combustion or heavy electric vehicles whatsoever.

     

    I am aware that numerous countries and cities have already embraced and legalized the EUC and other forms of PLEV. I would therefore appreciate your feedback on what the DfT is currently considering with regards to the future legality of this amazing new green technology in the UK.

Yours sincerely

 

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Sounds good. Also, compared to European or just about any electric bicycle they are light weight. ( lighter = less damage ) 

As shown in the News clip some people just don’t take EUCs seriously. They think that they are a circus trick and not a form of efficient transportation that almost anyone can learn if they just take the time. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Before I pop this off via email, can anyone think of any bonus points I haven't covered?

===========================================================

Dear Sirs,

 

I am writing to you to ask what considerations are currently being discussed around the use of PLEV’s (Personal Light Electric Vehicles). Specifically, I will refer to the EUC (Electric UniCycle).

 

Having now used an EUC for some time I am absolutely confident of the long term viability of them for personal transport. Indeed, I am struggling to think of a more efficient means of green powered transport that has the benefits of:

 

  1. Portability

  2. The ability to carry on/off public transport

  3. The ability to easily store at place of work

  4. Minimal carbon footprint

  5. Zero emissions

  6. Zero noise

  7. Minimal size

  8. Affordability

     

    The nearest equivalent that is currently legal is the electric bicycle which I also have much experience with but as I am sure you will agree, they are unable to meet at least four of the points above, and as a result are not viable for many people despite their obvious benefits.

     

    I believe EUC’s to be the smallest, most ideal, simple, convenient means for a person to travel under power. Further, current models are capable of around 70 miles before recharge which takes them beyond the ‘last mile’ use into a full means of transport for most people from home to work (and beyond if required) thereby negating the need for any internal combustion or heavy electric vehicles whatsoever.

     

    I am aware that numerous countries and cities have already embraced and legalized the EUC and other forms of PLEV. I would therefore appreciate your feedback on what the DfT is currently considering with regards to the future legality of this amazing new green technology in the UK.

Yours sincerely

 

Looks good to me ... very well-balanced and sensible. :thumbup: You could mention that you ride a EUC but didn't know they were illegal when you bought it and you don't like breaking the law.:ph34r:

Just don't expect to get a reply because it takes a lot of effort to reply to all the emails they get because they follow a formal process. They will read your email and consider the points raised, but they don't like to give away too many clues on what they intend to do. Their biggest concern is public safety, and the reason PLEVs are becoming important is because we need to reduce dependence on cars and reduce pollution,  by giving people choices, so those were the things I pushed in my email. If more riders can send them emails they will soon get the message that they really need to act so that all those that already purchased PLEVs don't need to be breaking the law and fear being stopped by police by riding them. Finally, Brexit will be one reason that is stopping progress being made in changing UK legislation because parliament has its hands full at the moment and any changes to UK law needs to go through parliament.

Edited by Nic

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49 minutes ago, Nic said:

Looks good to me ... very well-balanced and sensible. :thumbup: You could mention that you ride a EUC but didn't know they were illegal when you bought it and you don't like breaking the law.:ph34r:

 

That's a good point. I might labour the fact that I was not only amazed but saddened to find out that such a green vehicle wasn't legal :)

I appreciate I am not going to get a reply but like you say the more we prod the more chance we have. Cheers!

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Young people sometimes ride to get a thrill, almost like a fad. These guys take greater chances. They'll crash and if it's bad enough maybe quit in a short time.

If only we could reach out and expose the life changing opportunity here. It's not just a short thrill, it's a lifelong assistance. A revolution like the bicycle. Sure we're still in an early stage and we're mostly enthusiasts but soon enough we'll be all ages and be old and experienced riders. There'll be a short list of "suggestions for a long term happier and more harmonious riding".

 

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2 hours ago, alcatraz said:

only we could reach out and expose the life changing opportunity here. It's not just a short thrill, it's a lifelong assistance.

Automobiles are life-changing, not only to the person run over but also to the driver who might have to pay slightly higher insurance rates. Also, thrilling to both parties.

It's this enthusiasm that the automobile provides that EUC don't, and that is an uphill battle.

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1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Automobiles are life-changing, not only to the person run over but also to the driver who might have to pay slightly higher insurance rates. Also, thrilling to both parties.

It's this enthusiasm that the automobile provides that EUC don't, and that is an uphill battle.

Is an euc like an automobile? I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

If anything they are most similar to bicycles/mopeds.

Pedestrian vs car, car wins.

Car vs bus/truck, bus/truck wins.

Bus/truck vs train, train wins. 

Planes crash, boats sink.

There's always something out there to fear. Putting that aside, lets talk euc's instead. :)

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