Face plants

[phatmike]

I had a faceplant in April and I broke my arms. I consider my self an experienced rider (1500 km on a V5F+, 3000 Km on a V8 and 2800 Km on a Ks18L). After the crash I learned the lesson and I was very cautious driving the wheel. But two weeks ago (Italian meet up in Naples) I crashed again. In a totally flat and smooth pavement I took the only hole in the area (as you can see on the video). I was sure about the good condition of the pavement and I stop watching it and, like a stupid, I concentrated on shooting a video! Fortunately I was wearing protections under my jacket.

So: It does not metter how good you are in driving,  if you are not super concentrate on watching the street you will fall soon or later. Any single small hole or bump can be dangerous if you are not aware of it.

This is from another point of view. You can see the only small hole in 5 km of street:

 

 

[Ande]

Wow!  That didn’t give you much warning. Glad you’re okay.

[Smoother]

26 minutes ago, Ande said:

Wow!  That didn’t give you much warning. Glad you’re okay.

Plenty of warning... to not get into trouble in the first place; it's the only dark spot in a sea of grey asphalt.  As I have said before on face plan threads, watch out for changes in color in your riding surface, especially dark spots.  I'm glad @phatmike didn't re-injure himself, or he might have called it quits.

@Ande I'm sure you are aware the wheel did not do this, not paying attention (as phatmike admits due to filming) is the cause here.  Have I done the same thing? Hell yeah! No finger pointing here without three pointing right back at me.  Also please be aware that at least 80% of the time a pop like that is save-able.  I've hit a full blown speed bump I didn't see  and wobbled and flappeed my way out of it.  But I was riding fairly slowly.

EDIT I wonder if the fat tyre of a Z6/8/10 would have reacted so violently to that narrow hole; probably not.

[Ande]

Yes, I did realise that it was rider error.  Still surprised at how quickly it went from incident to impact though.

[Smoother]

Just now, Ande said:

Yes, I did realise that it was rider error.  Still surprised at how quickly it went from incident to impact though.

It called a face plant for a reason  If there was time to do anything we'd call it a foot plant. 

[Girth Brooks]

@Ande  This hobby is like a damn drug. It gives you so much self satisfaction that you want more, but it will also remind you at times to not go too far.

[phatmike]

The best way to fall on a wheel, in my opinion,  is trying not to open your arms and just go down with a little twist. All the "falling techniques" that are coming from martial arts are not usable on a wheel. The big difference is that yours feet , when you are falling from the wheel, are not starting from the ground but they are 20 cm in the air.  This is a big big difference. 

[Smoother]

1 minute ago, phatmike said:

The best way to fall on a wheel, in my opinion,  is trying not to open your arms and just go down with a little twist. All the "falling techniques" that are coming from martial arts are not usable on a wheel. The big difference is that yours feet , when you are falling from the wheel, are not starting from the ground but they are 20 cm in the air.  This is a big big difference. 

Did you really break both your arms in your previous fall?

[Smoother]

9 minutes ago, Girth Brooks said:

@Ande  This hobby is like a damn drug. It gives you so much self satisfaction that you want more, but it will also remind you at times to not go too far.

A bit like internet porn?

[phatmike]

32 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Did you really break both your arms in your previous fall?

Just One!

[Smoother]

6 minutes ago, phatmike said:

Just One!

You're too modest.  Breaking "just" one is still a huge deal.  How do you feel after your meeting with that hole in Napoli, still riding, still videoing?

[winterwheel]

I wonder sometimes if heavier riders have a little bit less serious falls because we don't have to lean so much to keep the wheel moving.

[Girth Brooks]

I guess I can see that comparison LOL

[Girth Brooks]

55 minutes ago, Smoother said:

A bit like internet porn?

I guess you can make that comparison as well LOL

[Smoother]

34 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I wonder sometimes if heavier riders have a little bit less serious falls because we don't have to lean so much to keep the wheel moving.

No.  It's definitely this:

 

 

[winterwheel]

Wheelers wobble and they do fall down occasionally.

[Smoother]

3 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

Wheelers wobble and they do fall down occasionally.

Very good!

[phatmike]

1 hour ago, Smoother said:

You're too modest.  Breaking "just" one is still a huge deal.  How do you feel after your meeting with that hole in Napoli, still riding, still videoing?

I was ok. After that crash I did another 30km in Naples. The day after I woke up with a lot of pain all over my body. But nothing was wrong. After a week I was on my wheel again. This is the link (with piatire) to my first accident when I broke my arms

 

[Scatcat]

5 hours ago, phatmike said:

The best way to fall on a wheel, in my opinion,  is trying not to open your arms and just go down with a little twist. All the "falling techniques" that are coming from martial arts are not usable on a wheel. The big difference is that yours feet , when you are falling from the wheel, are not starting from the ground but they are 20 cm in the air.  This is a big big difference. 

My experience is that a triangle arm impact is pretty likely to leave you unharmed (or close to) if you fall straight forward on a flat road. If you're off road, I suspect rolling would be better, as gliding is central to this concept.

The six "impact points" are wrists, elbows and knees. They are all protected. The wrists by flexmeters with a gliding pad, the elbows by CE-1 padding, the knees by cushioned hard plastic pads.
The hands are held fairly much together and angled up, hitting the glide pad as much as possible, to minimize the strength needed to control them in a glide and avoid abrasion. The elbows are forward and out, to minimize the impact power transfer to the shoulders, while still not allowing the head to go boom into the ground. Most of the body will not really touch the ground, since you rely on the knee pads to both take the impact and glide. It is a good case for good wrist guards, elbow- and knee-pads.

The effect if you succeed and glide a bit, is that your muscles will be sore as hell, as they take much of the force. But in return almost no force will travel along your bone structure. If your head hits, it does so after the force has been partly absorbed already. And yeah, it is also a good case for being fit, as the stronger you are, the less you'll hurt.

I've fallen like this from my EUC three times, one at almost no speed, one slightly skewed to the side at moderate speed, and once at 30kph. The worst I got hurt those three times was a knuckle scratch when falling skewed. After falling at 30kph I rose and managed to haul my 18kg broken wheel almost a kilometer to work without pain or problems (other than a sour mood and overheated body). I've rolled in another fast fall going sideways, which worked well. But it wouldn't have worked in a straight cut-out.

Let me illustrate with a very ridiculous little sketch.

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, Scatcat said:

 

I agree with this analysis, both logically and from personal experience.  When my ks14c threw me at about 30kph, on black top, this is exactly how I went down, not by choice; that's just what the superman pose looks like right down to the ground..  It's the one time my face (chin) hit the ground slightly.  My sternum hurt, and my fingers stung and went numb from slapping the ground, but I got up and rode off within 20 seconds.  And I continued to ride for over 30 minutes after that. I don't remember hurting the next day either. I think I've gone down like this 3 or 4 other times.  Every time I dust myself off and ride away.  Sliding on these 6 contact points.  Transitioning from speed to stopped in a progressive manner is much less shocking to the body than sticking the landing gymnastics style. When you stick the landing, bones break and tendons snap.

Seven points of contact if you include some part of your torso, chesty, stomach, etc

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Scatcat said:

The elbows are forward and out, to minimize the impact power transfer to the shoulders

Parkour class emphasized this point of keeping elbows high. They just went round and round this point, because the high elbow encourages rolling.

I did have opportunity to use this in a few faceplants including one at around 14-18 mph, and I will say if you can get the ground side elbow up and roll it out then despite it being terrifying there's not much impact forces, but I did suffer weeks long road rash. I didn't even get bruised.

I believe the idea of using wrist guards to arrest your forward motion, as in doing a push up, is very very badly thought out by most riders because of the energy involved. While I agree wearing a helmet and wristguards is important, I think the method of splatting on the ground with hands out and hoping you slide it out on your belly is ludicrously dangerous.

As an example, jump in the air and land just on your hands; you're likely not strong enough to stop your head from following into the ground. And a 20 mph crash has many times more energy to dissipate, and that is not possible with your arms. Broken wrist or broken collarbone, pick your poison.

Therefore, in a high speed EUC faceplant, you really have only one choice. You have to use your wrist and elbow to roll while keeping your head off the ground, with your wrist and elbow guards protecting you from frictional damage. Now in a motorcycle crash you can get your knees under you, and that is a comfortable way of crashing, but these EUC crashes always seem to start with your head below your waist. Unless an EUC rider crashes around a corner or catches his footpad, I'd bet almost all EUC faceplants don't involve the knees at all. How can they, when the crash has already started with the head below the waist?

This is the Parkour roll, appropriately named the safety roll.

 

[gon2fast]

The truth of it is if you fall stiff you will break bones/have massive injuries. If you can fall relaxed/& roll you will most likely walk away. 

I have fallen two time in the wilderness, lol. no injuries though!

[Seba]

9 hours ago, Scatcat said:

My experience is that a triangle arm impact is pretty likely to leave you unharmed (or close to) if you fall straight forward on a flat road. If you're off road, I suspect rolling would be better, as gliding is central to this concept.

The six "impact points" are wrists, elbows and knees. They are all protected. The wrists by flexmeters with a gliding pad, the elbows by CE-1 padding, the knees by cushioned hard plastic pads.
The hands are held fairly much together and angled up, hitting the glide pad as much as possible, to minimize the strength needed to control them in a glide and avoid abrasion. The elbows are forward and out, to minimize the impact power transfer to the shoulders, while still not allowing the head to go boom into the ground. Most of the body will not really touch the ground, since you rely on the knee pads to both take the impact and glide. It is a good case for good wrist guards, elbow- and knee-pads.

The effect if you succeed and glide a bit, is that your muscles will be sore as hell, as they take much of the force. But in return almost no force will travel along your bone structure. If your head hits, it does so after the force has been partly absorbed already. And yeah, it is also a good case for being fit, as the stronger you are, the less you'll hurt.

I've fallen like this from my EUC three times, one at almost no speed, one slightly skewed to the side at moderate speed, and once at 30kph. The worst I got hurt those three times was a knuckle scratch when falling skewed. After falling at 30kph I rose and managed to haul my 18kg broken wheel almost a kilometer to work without pain or problems (other than a sour mood and overheated body). I've rolled in another fast fall going sideways, which worked well. But it wouldn't have worked in a straight cut-out.

Let me illustrate with a very ridiculous little sketch.

I think you forgot about seventh "impact point" that is naturally equipped with impact protection. It's size, location and inherent shock adsorbing ability makes this one of the best protection you can have, for free and always with you! 

 

[travsformation]

9 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I believe the idea of using wrist guards to arrest your forward motion, as in doing a push up, is very very badly thought out by most riders because of the energy involved. While I agree wearing a helmet and wristguards is important, I think the method of splatting on the ground with hands out and hoping you slide it out on your belly is ludicrously dangerous.

[...]

Therefore, in a high speed EUC faceplant, you really have only one choice. You have to use your wrist and elbow to roll while keeping your head off the ground, with your wrist and elbow guards protecting you from frictional damage.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Rolling seems to me like an effective method for low-speed falls, but in a fall at speed, I think doing so would pose a much higher risk for the the rider (unless you've got plenty of experience and can link several rolls in a row); I fear most of us clumsy mortals would manage the first role at most and then transition, by inertia, into a series of involuntary and arbitrary rolls and tumbles where many more body parts would be susceptible of being injured (side of the head, hips, side of knees, etc.). I think the outcome would be much less predictable and potentially, much more dangerous. And not only because of that, but after several hours of practicing low-speed rolls, I have the impression rolling and wearing a full-face helmet aren't compatible; when practicing (falling intentionally) I'm very conscious of the protruding chin-guard and visor as I tuck my head in (an essential part of rolling).

In an unexpected fall, the mind would be trying to calculate tons of variables and outcomes at once (or just panicking and going blank ), and (unless one is VERY experienced at safety rolling) I don't think taking the helmet into account when rolling would be one of them. I can't shake off the feeling that there'd be a very high risk of the helmet getting caught on the ground and forcing one's head/neck in one direction while the rest of the body continues its roll in the opposite direction...

Since your mentioned motorbikes, note that in high-speed falls, those who sustain the least injuries are those who manage to slide and prevent any kind of roll; when you see someone fall off a 500cc bike in a MotoGP race and start rolling uncontrollably, you instantly know the risk of him suffering a myriad of contortion-related, skeletal-damaging injuries is very high.

But back to EUCs, despite having trained in several martial arts that involve rolling (I know it's not the same, but you do practice lots of jump&rolls (falling from a higher height than that of a wheel's pedals), and practiced them for several hours on my wheel, in all of my actual real-life falls, I've instinctively done what @Scatcat pointed out (and so skillfully sketched ), and came out with nothing but sore muscles and a slight blow to the ol' ego. It just seems like to most natural, instinctive reaction with the most predictable outcome. ( @Seba, my beer belly hasn't been nurtured enough to prove useful yet, perhaps I should give a wearable airbag a try)

Sore wrists (I use fairly cheap wrist guards) and biceps are to be expected, but so far I've never experienced anything that would keep me from hopping right back on the wheel and still riding the next day too. It is worth pointing out, though, that even though the slide dissipates part of the impact, the wrists do take a considerable impact (and are a very delicate and complex articulation); that force then gets transferred upward towards the elbows and then the shoulders, so there is a certain risk of shoulder injury/dislocation, especially if you only manage to stretch out one arm only, or land with your arms in a V-shape (which has the added bonus of facilitating your chin hitting the ground in a split second).

In fact, the spill where I experienced the least amount of post-fall discomfort was one in which, the minute my foot touched the ground, I shifted my weight backwards, flexed my knees and landed knee-first. If you lean backward enough, you can just slide on your knees (supposing you're wearing hard-shell, skate-style knee-pads over your clothes, and they don't come loose). Knees are not nearly as delicate than wrists, but additionally, this system has the added benefit that your hamstrings fold back onto your calves, taking away most of the stress from the knee articulation itself (a lot of stress on the quads though):
 

If your knee-pads get "stuck" at some point, because their "sliding power" isn't sufficient or the asphalt is too coarse, and you end up flying forward anyway, most of the impact will have already been dissipated by your knees and there will be much less strain on your upper body, particularly your wrists, which are the most delicate link in the chain, and incidentally, the first part of your arm to hit the ground. And needless to say, the impact will also be much less severe because your wrists will hit the ground from a (lower) kneeling position, as opposed to a standing position.

I've only "pulled this off" once, and it wasn't even intentional, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes: When bailing at speed, our first instinct is, contrary to common sense, to try to fight/resist the forward momentum by hitting the ground running...and our inability to match that momentum is what sends us flying, face-first, towards the floor. This "system" seems much more logical: since our legs aren't fast enough to go from a standing position to a running position capable of overcoming the forward momentum in a split second, it makes much more sense to give in to the inertia, let our legs bend backwards (which is what they're trying to do but we're fighting against), and slide, baby, slide!

(Obviously, this only works for forward, "face-first" falls, but that's the domain of face-plants, after all)

Not sure whether I'll be able to replicate this again anytime soon (and I hope I don't have to), but I'll be sure to update y'all on the outcome whenever it happens, as it's a possibility I hadn't considered that feels quite promising

What do you guys think about this approach?

--End of Wall of Text no. 2--

 

P.S.  @Ande Sorry for side-tracking your thread...some of us have a knack for doing that. I hope that at least the info provided is helpful enough to compensate for our scatter-brained, side-tracking posting habits

 

[Scatcat]

4 hours ago, Seba said:

I think you forgot about seventh "impact point" that is naturally equipped with impact protection. It's size, location and inherent shock adsorbing ability makes this one of the best protection you can have, for free and always with you! 

 

Not enough of a beer belly yet for that to happen  
And if this pesky infection I'm carrying around can just stop, I'll go to the gym and try preventing one from developing.