Face plants

[Ande]

Hi all. I’ve done quite a bit of trawling through these forums for the last few days, and reports of face plants seem to crop up with alarming regularity. I’m 56, and don’t bounce anywhere nearly as well as I once did, so am naturally a bit concerned.  If I crash, and face plant due to my own ineptitude or stupidity then I can accept that.  However, what concerns me most is all of the reports of wheels conspiring against the riders by suddenly initiating deadly amounts of tilt back, or just plain glitching out.  How worried should I be?  Is this something that is inevitable, and all riders are bound to experience it sooner or later, or are the incidents rare?  I’m hoping that all wheels aren’t Jeckyl and Hyde as I don’t really need that seed of doubt nagging away at me.

[LanghamP]

We cannot put your mind at ease because faceplants are inevitable, that is, on a long enough time scale every wheel will cut out. Now that time scale may be hours, or years, and less likely with newer wheels with better quality control, or very likely with older wheels with weaker older batteries, but the basic idea is to fix or replace your wheel before the inevitable cutout occurs.

For example, if you buy a newer Kingsong or Gotway with the upgraded mofets (magical pieces of circuitry that are sorted by quality by elves) then those are less likely to break your wheel.

So, you will faceplant. Accept it. Practice it, even. Wear wristguards and a helmet that can protect your face. Learn to roll.

[Sergei Dubovsky]

Generally, if you ride cautiously, it is unlikely to get a faceplant. It usually happens when rider is bit too confident in his abilities. Look where you go. Don't ride fast on a road that you don't know well. Be aware about potential hazards, like ice patches or wet leafs or mud.  

[Ande]

Well, I bought a Kingsong KS18L, so was rather hoping it wouldn’t be too much of a dog.  I do have the protective gear,  but am still acutely aware that even that will only lessen the degree of injury, not totally eliminate it.   Might have to do a bit of soul searching...

[Smoother]

@Ande it depends on what kind of 56 year old you are.  If your the typical, out of shape, inactive, couch potato type who breaks a wrist tripping over a crack in the pavement, then sell your wheel on.  But, if you're somewhat active, or at the very least have no fear of not getting up again after a typical fall, then go for it.  You are right in the median age group for this activity, so, you're not taking on a young man's sport.  Just remember to wear your protective kit from the start.  Training falls, low speed though they are, can be quite injurious.

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Ande said:

Well, I bought a Kingsong KS18L, so was rather hoping it wouldn’t be too much of a dog.  I do have the protective gear,  but am still acutely aware that even that will only lessen the degree of injury, not totally eliminate it.   Might have to do a bit of soul searching...

My "escalator" theory is that if you can get up a moving escalator going the wrong way with little difficulty then you should be just fine at 12 mph and under cutouts and faceplants even though you'll hit the ground.

[that0n3guy]

It's inevitable.  If you want to not faceplant, don't use a 1 wheeled vehicle :).  If you really like the one wheeled vehicle, then prepare yourself by wearing lots of pads (and lifting weights ..)

[Gadgetfann]

I had a fear of face planting when I started riding too, but don’t fear falling as much now hat I have the right gear.  Get the right helmet, wrist guards, elbow pads and knee pads and maybe even a body protector.  I’ve found that  Leatt makes some great CE certified products for motorcycle riding and motocross that work very well for EUC riding.  As long as I’m riding with my gear on, I feel pretty safe.

[meepmeepmayer]

Modern wheels like your KS18L don't just cut out in the same way that modern planes just don't have their wings break off mid-flight and plunge to a fiery death. Yes, it can happen theoretically, but it just doesn't actually happen.

If you're absolutely unable to live with the theoretical possibility of a hardware-failure-caused faceplant, EUCs are not for you. It's good you understand the possibility and therefore how EUCs work and where the weak spots of the concept are. Every rider goes through this uncomfortable realization. But in the end, realistically, a sudden hardware failure faceplant just won't happen, so accept the (tiny tiny tiny but existent) risk and enjoy riding

Otherwise, the real danger is crashes because you did something wrong or were simply unlucky. If you ever faceplant, it will be because of this, not hardware failure.  To guard against these crashes, you should wear wrist guards, knee guards, and a full face helmet (at least these three) and they also happen to protect as much as possible against theoretical instant hardware-failure-caused faceplants (not that they're going to happen).

I disagree with the notion that a hardware failure faceplant is only a question of time (though it is technically true as every EUC will break at *some* time, like everything else, and unfortunately for EUCs any electronics failure means faceplanting, so there we go). Even a regular "that was my fault" faceplant isn't at all guaranteed (but unlike the hardware failure faceplant, can realistically happen).

But there is something to be said for using common sense and "knowing" when to get a new wheel (if your wheel is really old or abused, or shows any irregular behavior). But in general the batteries will lose their strength, the shell will be banged up horribly, and there will be much better shiny nice new wheels available, and you'll want to upgrade long before you need to worry about the hardware failing. Maybe just say "after 7 years, get a new wheel". That will be more than enough. People have tens of thousands of kilometers on much older, worse electronics wheels and still none of them just failed out of the blue.

Enjoy your 18L, a great wheel!

Edited January 24, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[meepmeepmayer]

5 hours ago, LanghamP said:

My "escalator" theory is that if you can get up a moving escalator going the wrong way with little difficulty then you should be just fine at 12 mph and under cutouts and faceplants even though you'll hit the ground.

My "EUC" theory is that if you can successfully learn to ride a EUC in the first place, it can't be that bad that you shouldn't ride a EUC

Though I guess the risk #1 is being overweight, because all that mass makes any impact much more powerful. More specifically, the impact travelling from the arms (hopefully you have wrist guards) to your shoulders.

[travsformation]

Another thing worth taking into account, as well as the incidence of faceplants, is the cause. But before I ramble on about the different scenarios where they can occur, I think it's worth noting that the term faceplant is often used rather loosely. To me, a faceplant is when the downward inertia of one's face is such that failing to put your arms in front of you (which you don't have much time to do) results in your face being planted in the ground (which generally only occurs when the gyroscope switches off while you're leaning forward). But a lot of people also use the terms for falls where your face risks hitting the asphalt; to me, those are wipe-outs, spills, etc. not faceplants (your face, be it the front or the side, can find itself bound towards the ground in a number of scenarios, but to me, that doesn't qualify as a faceplant). Then again, who am I to argue with the community's definition?

So to over-simplify, in my experience there are two kinds of faceplants:

Falls/wipeouts that end in a faceplant, and wheel/cut-out related faceplants (which are attributable to user mistakes in most cases; wheel malfunctions are a rare occurrence with modern, non-knockoff/imitation wheels).

Falling, I agree, is inevitable and will happen sooner or later. It's a risk you have to accept the second you hop on a one-wheeled electric beast. The scenarios where I can most easily envision "face greets floor" are hitting an obstacle (pothole, seed bump, etc.) unexpectedly (particularly at speed) and not having enough time to react, falling at a speed that's faster than you can run, or falling at an awkward angle (while turning, trying to regain control of a wobbling wheel, etc.). This isn't exactly what you were asking about, but since your post was about safety/injury concerns, I thought I might as well bring it up.

Faceplants (and butt-plants) caused by wheel cut-outs are a different animal altogether; on the negative side, the risk of injury is quite high; on the positive side, they can easily be prevented by knowing your wheel's limitations, respecting the beeps and riding cautiously. Understanding that cut-outs are a safety mechanism designed to prevent battery overcharge (aka the wheel catching on fire) is essential, as is understanding the cases where this can occur. During my first 600 km of riding, I've had one butt-plant, and one face-plant, and they were both entirely my fault. The butt-plant was caused by ignorance on my part; I set off down a steep hill with my battery at 100% charge. The excess energy caused by the regen (regenerative braking, which charges the battery) of going down the hill was more than the battery could absorb, and the hill was steep enough (and regen intense enough) that the wheel didn't even have time to warn me before it cut out. After @meepmeepmayer kindly took the time to explain why this had happened and gave me some pointers about how to prevent it in the future, it's never happened again. Now I charge my wheel to 90% so the batteries have enough capacity to absorb the energy created by the power regeneration of going down a steep, 1 km hill to the town center. If I accidentally charge my battery to 100%, I proceed down the hill at very slow speed to give the wheel (V8) the time to warn me with its characteristic "Overload, please dismount". Then I turn around, go back up to the top of the hill, accelerating aggressively to burn off as much battery as I can (but careful not to overlean), then go back down a few hundred meters again, either accelerating a bit or zig-zagging from side to side to prevent regen, then repeat: back up again. This takes me a couple of minutes at most, and in my case, is enough to mitigate the risk.  Do note that I ride slowly down the rest of the hill, just to be on the safe side, or alternate between accelerating aggressively, then braking with moderation, in an attempt to minimize regen on my way down (the former is probably the safest approach; the latter might be counter-productive; correct me if I'm wrong, more-knowledgeable-users).

The only faceplant I've had (gryoscope switching off) was intentional. I overleaned on purpose to see just how much I had to push the wheel for it to cut off. No injuries, but I suddenly became aware of why people are so scared of faceplants: despite knowing it was about to happen and thinking I was prepared for it, it happens so fast you still barely have time to react. The realization of how hard it is to react in the face of a cut-out, and the fact I barely managed to put my hands out in front of me (going 10 km/h...), is what prompted me to start digging deeper into how EUC motors work.

And I think that's the key to preventing faceplants. Cut-outs are the wheel's safety mechanism to prevent sudden current surges from damaging the wheel (at the expense of the rider, in this case). Any kind of current surge, overpower, etc., might end in a cut-out, and said surges can occur in a number of scenarios: when accelerating too fast, braking too hard, or unbeknown to me until  @meepmeepmayer (member of the High Council of EUC Wizards) pointed it out to me: the torque reduction at near-top-speeds constitutes another high risk of the wheel cutting out; it takes much less leaning for the wheel to deem it an overlean, and even going over a bump when near top speed can cause a power surge, whether it's because the tire momentarily loses contact with the ground, or because the rider doesn't land completely upright, but leaning forwards, and the wheel can't cope with what the electronics consider a very sudden, pronounced demand for power (Once again, Council of the Wizards, correct me if I'm wrong).

Ever since I learned this, I've been particularly cautious with my V8. Max. speed is 30 km/h, so I'm very gently with acceleration anywhere from 25 km/h upward, and when riding on bumpy roads, I don't exceed 25 km/h--20 if they're really gnarly. And although I've had a few falls, I've had zero cut-outs. Since I wanted to ride faster, I upgraded to a KS18XL, so I can comfortably ride at 35 km/h in areas where I used to slow down to 25 for safety's sake, knowing that I'm not near top speed and the wheel has the extra safety margin to deal with power surges that would make a less powerful wheel cut out if I go over a pronounced bump at that speed.

So to me, information is power, or in this case, safety. Cut-outs are easily preventable if one takes the time to learn how EUC motors work, and the limitations of their wheel. So in that sense, I believe cut-out related faceplants are entirely preventable, and almost always caused by users' lack of understanding of how their wheel works. And random cut-outs are, as others have pointed out, a very rare occurrence that I don't think is worth worrying too much about.

So my advice would be: keep reading, keep learning, keep riding, be safe and enjoy your (excellent) wheel!

--- End of soliloquy ---

 

 

[Smoother]

@Ande there are other sides to all this face plant reporting too.  One is bragging rights (see my "face plant wall of infamy"), and another is reporting a situation to educate. It's also a bit like the news; all the bad stuff is reported at a much higher level than anything good.  For every idyllic video, photo, or verbal report of a good ride, there are 1,000 other good rides that aren't shared. A rider rides for weeks or months without posting anything, then one day a face plant occurs, and the report is on the site before he's finished taking off his pads.

 I think if you read ALL the face plant reports and internalized the lessons into your riding, you will (almost) never face plant.  I know, from personal experience that if I face plant these days, it's 99% likely because I did something I already know I shouldn't do.  I write it off to the "how to confirm a mistake by repeating it" principle. 

I'm older than you, I wouldn't recognize the inside of a gym even with annotation, and I'll only run if a guy with a big gun is chasing me, and after about 100 feet I'll be turning to take that gun off him because i'm not running any further.  So if someone like me has no qualms about getting up on one of these crazy machines, you should have no problem. Do I occasionally get hurt? sure.  Just yesterday while practicing backwards riding the wheel flopped over on its side (at ZERO mph) scraping the skin off my shin bone with the edge of the trolley handle as I tried to cushion its fall. .  Will that stop me practicing today fluck yeah     absolutely not.

[meepmeepmayer]

23 minutes ago, travsformation said:

--- End of soliloquy ---

Holy wall of text! (Also I had to look that word up)

I'd clarify, you talk mostly about a faceplant due to overpowering the wheel. That can happen with a weak motor or (worse) small battery, which certainly doesn't apply to the 18L. It happens due to overpowering the wheel, that is a high extra stress when it is already at its limits (like a pothole at top speed). Given that the 18L is capped at 50kph, which is crazy fast and still quite far away from what it can do, that is not going to happen.

Also, these faceplants aren't exactly from a power surge and the wheel protecting itself, just from the wheel not being able to deliver what would be needed (with the exception of the downhill overcharge, there the wheel indeed has to shut off to prevent damage, but even then there's a warning, just maybe too slow like on your V8). So the problem is rather the lack of a power surge (because that would be more than the wheel can do). I think the V8 just may have a problematic firmware limitations to protect the not-too-strong board, but stronger wheels like the 18L won't ever have to switch off to protect themselves (with the possible exception of downhill overcharging).

The other type of faceplant would be from a sudden electronics failure, that also won't happen with an 18L.

So @Ande unless you ignore any warnings or do anything absolutely unreasonable with your 18L, it's hard to see how you could possibly have a problem due to the wheel. Any fall won't be caused by the wheel itself. Worry about what you do

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Holy wall of text! (Also I had to look that word up)

"holy wall of text-Batman!" As for solill solul sowlilli  that word, I didn't have to look it up but it did make my brain hurt.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Smoother

[Ande]

Thanks all.  Lots of information there to absorb. Firstly, I should point out that I’m not particularly cowardly, and am no stranger to “risk” sports. I was a paraglider pilot for many years, and successfully managed the risk element.  If I ever got into difficulty, it was always my own fault.  And I accepted that gladly. If, however, I had been told that there was a fair chance that my wing would tear in half, my harness have the the arse drop out of it, or the lines snap mid-flight then I would have never left the ground.  And, thank to your input, I now feel sufficiently confident that my wheel conspiring to kill me would be a very rare event.  I now have a better understanding of why the wheel might throw a hissy, and can now go about managing the situation. 

 

Particular thanks to @meepmeepmayer, @travsformation, and @Smoother for pointing out some of the technical reasons why my wheel might object to any inappropriate treatment

[Smoother]

1 minute ago, Ande said:

. I was a paraglider pilot

Me too.  Well powered paraglider to be exact.  I'm looking to get my CP rating in paragliding soon.  Why did you stop?

[pico]

@Ande

I sensed a lot of fear and self doubt in your post. I could be wrong. (Oooops just read your post)

Keep in mind this. In euc training your biggest enemy will be what your brain tells you. Beginner or experienced rider.

A 5 five year old has no self doubt. He just wants to do what he saw an adult do an GOES for it. 

I saw a video of a toddler that wanted to step off a wheel. No experience. He just walked off the damn thing and let it go and crash on a wall. No fear!

When I am initiating  adults how to step off a wheel for the first time (hop from four inches high!) I have to coerce them to step off...

Learning EUC is going to be one of the most soul revealing experience of your life as it will teach you a lot about of your own self and how your brain processes information from your senses. Of courses there will be a few bumps and bruises along the way...

 

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by pico
Corr

[Ande]

I was a postman for many years, and was able to complete my round and get on the hill most flyable days.  However, my hours slowly changed, and the work got more demanding, meaning that I could only get on the hill high-days and holidays, which meant sharing the hill with every bugger else.  The Mynd was my go to site if it was blowing a westerly, and that gets so much traffic on weekends.  Just lost heart in the end.  Oh, I’ve got my paramotor rating too.  Owned a Bailey V5 for a short while, but found the landings too tough on my knees with the extra 20-odd kilos on my back.  Much preferred free flight. Who are you training with?

Edited January 24, 2019 by Ande
Typo

[Smoother]

3 minutes ago, Ande said:

I was a postman for many years, and was able to complete my round and get on the hill most flyable days.  However, my hours slowly changed, and the work got more demanding, meaning that I could only get on the hill high-days and holidays, which meant sharing the hill with every bugger else.  The Mynd was my go to site if it was blowing a westerly, and that gets so much traffic on weekends.  Just lost heart in the end.  Oh, I’ve got my paramotor rating too.  Owned a Bailey V5 for a short while, but found the landings too tough on my knees with the extra 20-odd kills on my back.  Much preferred free flight. Who are you training with?

answering in a PM so as not to clutter up the thread too much.

[Ande]

3 minutes ago, pico said:

@Ande

I sensed a lot of fear and self doubt in your post. I could be wrong.

Keep in mind this. In euc training your biggest enemy will be what your brain tells you. Beginner or experienced rider.

A 5 five year old has no self doubt. He just wants to do what he saw an adult do an GOES for it. 

I saw a video of a toddler that wanted to step off a wheel. No experience. He just walked off the damn thing and let it go and crash on a wall. No fear!

When I am initiating  adults how to step off a wheel for the first time (hop from four inches high!) I have to coerce them to step off...

Learning EUC is going to be one of the most soul revealing experience of your life as it will teach you a lot about of your own self and how your brain processes information from your senses. Of courses there will be a few bumps and bruises along the way...

 

 

Hi pico. Sorry if I gave that impression. I’m not fearful of the act of riding an euc. I am, however, fearful of that which I’ve no control over.  Which is why I posted about wheels failing.  As I said in my opening post, I’ve no problem with crashing if it’s self induced.  Just needed to know how reliable these things are on the whole.

[pico]

No prob. I wanted to kill my post, then,  as I stated this is good advice for all riders and I am no exception.

I still remember my first backward 360 turn and my brain wanted to tell me that everything was wrong and gradually telling me you are just fine...

So sooner or later my post will be useful

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by pico

[winterwheel]

I'm pretty much the same age, and fairly robust physically I suppose. I have been riding nearly every day for the last two years, often in extreme conditions, and have fallen quite a  few times, including a small number of times that fall into the 'faceplant' category. My injuries are many scraped knees, fewer scraped elbows, and a dislocated thumb (from a time I was really, really, really pushing my luck on the wheel,  far beyond what would be considered normal use). I have never  come close to hitting my head or face. 

Two things I do

1) I always 'respect the beep'. If I am heading into a situation where I think the wheel is being stressed I slow down and don't force the issue. Leaning forward on a wheel that is beeping at you is how the true, most notorious and damaging faceplants happen. If the thing is beeping at you, back off.

2) Use extra caution when riding an unknown new trail. My worst fall came when I was scouting a new trail, started having a bit of reckless fun, and encountered an unexpected ground feature on the other side of a blind corner. Our group rode the same path next day without incident.

3) Don't buy a crappy wheel. We had one in our  group for a while, and it was a faceplant machine for the heavier ones among us who tried it out.

Hope this helps.

[Girth Brooks]

58 minutes ago, pico said:

Learning EUC is going to be one of the most soul revealing experience of your life as it will teach you a lot about of your own self and how your brain processes information from your senses. Of courses there will be a few bumps and bruises along the way...

This is so true!!!!!!!!

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Ande said:

If, however, I had been told that there was a fair chance that my wing would tear in half, my harness have the the arse drop out of it, or the lines snap mid-flight then I would have never left the ground.

The chance that a wheel just stops working for no good reason is about the chance that one of the things above would just happen without good reason You don't hear that very often, do you? Yes it could happen, but with a good wheel, realistically it simply doesn't.

It's like this for most new riders, especially the more technical minded who understand the implication of "self-balancing" and want their tech to be predictable. They are uneasy about this uncertainty when they learn about EUCs, it's just there in principle, and there's nothing one can do. Very soon they (and you will) learn that the real danger is elsewhere aka dumb shit they or others do

Edited January 24, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[Ande]

“Always respect the beep”. I like that. I’m gonna make that my riding mantra