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We've decided to take on The Man


pArmitage
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It is a lot to process but I applaud you for taking this up. I think EUCs have a place on both the road and the sidewalk and I think the key factor in determining which is appropriate does not come down to the potential power of the motor, the size of the battery or the wheel but the speed the device is being operated.

I have no problem with either a Luffy or a Monster being ridden on a sidewalk if they are at speeds sensible for the environment, probably less than 10mph when within 100 feet of pedestrians or areas if reduced visibility (alley entrances etc) for the safety of pedestrians. If a bike lane is available then the EUC rider should have the option (but not be forced) to use it at whatever speed they see fit. Want to go faster than 10mph? Get in the bike lane. Roads without bike lanes should also be legal for EUC use just as they are push bikes but if a bike lane is available it should be used to show consderation for other faster road users. Like bikes EUC riders should keep as far right as safe and ride single file.

Mixed use paths are in my eyes a terrible idea in general either for bikes or EUCs. Not seperating humans from bikes/eucs by some kind of median just invites the issue of inatentive kids/excited dogs/phone zombies running into your path. But that is a larger issue beyond EUCs specifically.

Edited by WARPed1701D
Added text about sidewalk speed limits
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I love your text:

1) It goes into detail of rules and makes it clear the EUC is not (well) legislated.

2) You trying to help legislation/ rulings along.

I would say that the EUC should be classified as small personal transport. A whole new category that enables you to go where pedestrians go AND where bikes go.  

I also think that different speedlimits (for different situations) should be imposed. Like 8km/h on sidewalks, 25km/h inside the city and 40km/h in the open. But it would be wrong to limit the max-speed of the EUC itself. If you go quicker, you get a speedingticket, just like cars.

 

In the Netherlands, all these rules are quite different, and much more detailed. To the letter of the law, it is clear that the EUC is officially not allowed on public roads. At the same time, it is clear what course of action is needed for an EUC to become legal on the road. The manufacturer has to put in a request for its vehicle to be allowed as a special category of bike. The manufacturer(s) must prove (per EUC model) that steering, braking, lights, etc. is all in order. It is quite a list of requirements, but is also a list from which it becomes clear that this law is ill suited for EUC's (mainly because of steering requirements). 

The problem is that existing laws, that are perfectly fine for almost all vehicles and traffic, must be adapted to include EUC's, and that is complex lawmaking for just a few EUC enthousiast. I do not see it happen (in the short term).

I hope you will succeed to get the rules in place that will allow the EUC's in your part of the world. 

Best of luck with it :) 

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1 hour ago, pArmitage said:

I am okay with all EUCs being classified as Toy Vehicles for now, but I don't think that such a solution would be good for the community in general for very long. 

I'd avoid that.  In Florida EUcs are classified as Toy Vehicles and the result is that, technically, in Florida an EUC is neither permitted on roadways nor on sidewalks nor on bicycle paths or trails (unless administered by a local entity that sets its own access policy).  You'd be going from a gray area to an explicitly defined area in which EUCs could inadvertently become illegal anywhere except on private property.

Right now if you ride in Colorado there's a good chance law enforcement will ignore you or even acknowledge you, simply because an EUC is not well defined yet.  This happened to me at a state park in Colorado.  I talked to a LEO in the park and after a few basic questions he said to go ahead and ride the trails.  If there was an EUC definition in the law he probably would have known it and told me to stay off.

Take a look at what was done in Arizona by @dbfrese.  The law was slightly amended to broaden the definition of an EPAMD to include one-wheeled devices and drop the 750 watt limitation. This made EUCs legal on any public property suitable for pedestrians, without insurance, registration, or lighting requirements.

For sample legal wording, check this post.

Good luck!

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3 hours ago, Ombre said:

I'd avoid that.  In Florida EUcs are classified as Toy Vehicles and the result is that, technically, in Florida an EUC is neither permitted on roadways nor on sidewalks nor on bicycle paths or trails (unless administered by a local entity that sets its own access policy).  You'd be going from a gray area to an explicitly defined area in which EUCs could inadvertently become illegal anywhere except on private property.

wow, if what u say is true, and i’m not doubting u, that pretty much puts the euc out of business in my state. i’m sure people will ignore the law and continue to enjoy their “toy” without getting hassled, until there’s enough out there and a bystander gets hurt by one, or fires etc. this is why i think a device like the kiwano k01 might could be passed off as an electric mobility device. kind of a motorized cane. if i were selling them, one of my sponsored riders would be an 80 year old granny.

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my driveway is about 2000 feet long. my mailbox and deliveries are at my gate. i need to go check my mail because i might have something worthhile in my mailbox. i can walk, probably what i’ll do because that’s what Bob wants, drive my truck or take a polaris. if my driveway was cleared, and i was proficient at euc riding, would i suit up with wristguards, gloves, kneepads, helmet etc etc just to get the mail, i rarely put on clothes. i’m thinking for this short trip iin flip flops and shorts, the k01 might be the thing i grab. if it’s easy and saves me time and pennies to run without much maintenance, i’m in.

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7 hours ago, Ombre said:

You'd be going from a gray area to an explicitly defined area in which EUCs could inadvertently become illegal anywhere except on private property.

The problem with that is that EPAMDs aren't allowed basically anywhere either in Colorado, and even have a speed limit no other vehicle has.  Legally speaking, you can't ride a Segway down a sidewalk.  But as I said, the Toy Vehicle classification is a stop-gap measure.  A restrictive one, yes, but actually just as much so as EPAMDs, if not a little easier.  Colorado law states that cities have the ability to make their own laws when it comes to EPAMDs and Toys, which has resulted in complete bans of certain vehicles in some cities.  And Denver especially is notorious for banning or controlling all sorts of devices that are legal everywhere else in the state.  Having a grey area might be fine for now, but again, as soon as that first collision happens, Denver-Metro is going to start banning them altogether, I guarantee it.  I feel it would be best to work with the state in this regard than to work around them, especially when it ends up coming down to a cop's own judgement whether to allow or disallow something they are unfamiliar with.  I am still committed to designing a specific EUC classification, based around maximum speed.

The way I see it, either we help to make the definitions ourselves, or we let legislators eventually make them for us, likely after someone gets hurt, which won't work in our favor.  Look at how "hoverboards" are banned in NYC, and heavily restricted in California state.  In fact, there's a list: https://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/every-place-in-the-world-that-has-banned-hoverboards-1750187617

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3 hours ago, novazeus said:

wow, if what u say is true, and i’m not doubting u, that pretty much puts the euc out of business in my state.

Well, sort of.  It does seem that Florida has put EUCs and electric scooters, etc. in a legal box, but there are exceptions:

s. 316.008 – Powers of Local Authorities

(7) A county or municipality may enact an ordinance to permit, control, or regulate the operation of vehicles, golf carts, mopeds, motorized scooters, and electric personal assistive mobility devices on sidewalks or sidewalk areas when such use is permissible under federal law. The ordinance must restrict such vehicles or devices to a maximum speed of 15 miles per hour in such areas.

This is the key loophole I've found so far.  Apparently local jurisdictions can allow "motorized scooters" when they want to.  (An "electric personal assistive mobility device" is a Segway.)

This trick is to figure out which jurisdictions allow them.  But there's good news: According to the article below, if Federal or State funds were used in the construction of the trail, the governing body has to explicitly prohibit e-bikes and other motorized vehicles.

From "Electric bikes, Segways spark trail-access issues", Denver Post 9/29/2010:

While some towns have created their own regulations, others have done nothing, thinking that trail signs prohibiting motorized vehicles cover the matter.

That’s not true.

Federal and state laws lump electrical-assisted bikes in with muscle-powered bicycles rather than with motorized vehicles — as long as they don’t go over 20 mph or have more than 750 watts of power. They are allowed on trails built with federal and state funds unless a local jurisdiction decides differently.

So Beal and Audry Trahan of Littleton are in the clear when they pedal with electronic assistance past signs reading “no motorized vehicles.” Their town even has four police officers patrolling on e-bikes.

 I'm trying to find a statute or ruling from an official source that backs up this report.  There's also a question of whether an EUC is covered by the same law as e-bike, or if they fall in a "gray area".

It might be a matter of contacting the jurisdiction for a trail you want to ride and seeing if they have an opinion on it.  But it's probably more practical to avoid interactions with cops and other trail users that might inspire a "discussion".  I know @Jason McNeil has ridden his electric unicycle every day for about five years on trails in the Miami area (he commutes to work) and as far as I know it has never been a problem for him.
 
This is somewhat off-topic.  Colorado is the topic here, and just to be clear I'm mentioning Florida only as an example of how things can get worse if we (a) do nothing;  (b) do the wrong thing.

 
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8 hours ago, Ombre said:

I'd avoid that.  In Florida EUcs are classified as Toy Vehicles and the result is that, technically, in Florida an EUC is neither permitted on roadways nor on sidewalks nor on bicycle paths or trails (unless administered by a local entity that sets its own access policy).  You'd be going from a gray area to an explicitly defined area in which EUCs could inadvertently become illegal anywhere except on private property.

Good luck!

As I read current Florida Statutes, EUCs do not meet the definition you say they do.  There does not, in fact, seem to be any current classification that fits them.  I've talked to several police officers, and a couple have told me that since it has a motor, it is technically supposed to be in the bike lane, but some of what I have read statutes wise seemed to contradict that and said it should be in the sidewalk.  But no specific category of vehicle fully describes an EUC according to current Florida Law, unless maybe I missed something.  

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1 hour ago, Catlord17 said:

As I read current Florida Statutes, EUCs do not meet the definition you say they do.  There does not, in fact, seem to be any current classification that fits them.

You're right that EUCs are not defined in Florida law.  But that's exactly the problem (underlines below are added by me for emphasis):

s. 316.1995 – Driving upon Sidewalk or Bicycle Path

No person shall drive any vehicle other than by human power upon a bicycle path, sidewalk, or sidewalk area, except upon a permanent or duly authorized temporary driveway. A violation of this section is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a moving violation as provided in chapter 318.

And there's this:

s. 316.003 – Definitions

(82) Motorized Scooter – Any vehicle not having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider, designed to travel on not more than three wheels, and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground.            [Most EUCs meet this definition!]

s. 316.2128 – Operation of Motorized Scooters and Miniature Motorcycles; Requirements for Sales

(1) A person who engages in the business of, serves in the capacity of, or acts as a commercial seller of motorized scooters or miniature motorcycles in this state must prominently display at his or her place of business a notice that such vehicles are not legal to operate on public roads, may not be registered as motor vehicles, and may not be operated on sidewalks unless authorized by an ordinance enacted pursuant to s. 316.008(7) or s. 316.212(8).

See the problem? Lacking good legal definition is nearly as bad as being outlawed.  By these rules, an EUC is a "motorized scooter" and not legal on roads or sidewalks in Florida!  It's a similar mess in Colorado.

The original poster on this thread ( @pArmitage) has the right idea.  Defining EUCs explicitly at the state level and giving them legal rights to travel on public sidewalks and/or roads is the best way to avoid a mish-mash of "gray area" definitions across municipal, state, and federal lines.

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14 hours ago, Ombre said:

You're right that EUCs are not defined in Florida law.  But that's exactly the problem (underlines below are added by me for emphasis):

s. 316.1995 – Driving upon Sidewalk or Bicycle Path

No person shall drive any vehicle other than by human power upon a bicycle path, sidewalk, or sidewalk area, except upon a permanent or duly authorized temporary driveway. A violation of this section is a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a moving violation as provided in chapter 318.

And there's this:

s. 316.003 – Definitions

(82) Motorized Scooter – Any vehicle not having a seat or saddle for the use of the rider, designed to travel on not more than three wheels, and not capable of propelling the vehicle at a speed greater than 30 miles per hour on level ground.            [Most EUCs meet this definition!]

s. 316.2128 – Operation of Motorized Scooters and Miniature Motorcycles; Requirements for Sales

(1) A person who engages in the business of, serves in the capacity of, or acts as a commercial seller of motorized scooters or miniature motorcycles in this state must prominently display at his or her place of business a notice that such vehicles are not legal to operate on public roads, may not be registered as motor vehicles, and may not be operated on sidewalks unless authorized by an ordinance enacted pursuant to s. 316.008(7) or s. 316.212(8).

See the problem? Lacking good legal definition is nearly as bad as being outlawed.  By these rules, an EUC is a "motorized scooter" and not legal on roads or sidewalks in Florida!  It's a similar mess in Colorado.

The original poster on this thread ( @pArmitage) has the right idea.  Defining EUCs explicitly at the state level and giving them legal rights to travel on public sidewalks and/or roads is the best way to avoid a mish-mash of "gray area" definitions across municipal, state, and federal lines.

i originally wanted an euc to exercise my dog on the ranch and the learning experience. i had only seen one in the wild in ft lauderdale at the docks in 2015. now  i have 3 and hopefully they are good ones, but the thing that surprised me the most was how heavy and dense little packages they are. when writing laws, they aren’t trying to protect u from a good euc with a good courteous safe euc rider, they are trying to protect u from the other end of the spectrum. could u imagine what morgan and morgan would do to u if ur euc got away from u and injured a baby. unlawful, unsafe device that u knew what u were doing was wrong and u did it anyway. probably criminal charges too. my, my. on the other hand, tampa, especially my 325 acres would benefit from light rail, and euc’s made me start thinking about the last mile. this Kiwano k01 might squeak through the legal snare because it does have a handle and at 33lbs and supposedly fireproof. i think kiwano is gonna fight this fight.

E6564E0C-4480-460C-8EBD-58A8EA040BA1.jpeg

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ask ur insurance agent if ur covered if u injure somebody riding ur euc on a sidewalk, multiuse path, trail, highway etc. they should know. maybe someday they’ll be euc insurance, like ama provided for me flying rc helis. as long as i was at an ama field. maybe they’ll build designated fields and tracks for euc riders. until then, have fun in ur driveway, legally. i can’t ride my ktm 525 exc on the roads, sidewalks, multi use paths, bike paths etc etc. yet they sell a bunch. if i don’t ride it here, i’d have to have permission at some other private owner or there’s state parks that allow them.

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1 hour ago, novazeus said:

C9D0FCA8-F677-4450-8E54-BD3B1E0AA8E0.jpeg

Oooh, so they created a pipe bomb instead having an environment where venting gases can properly escape, really??? (cynical)

 

I know you probably wont believe me...but, i can only warn to throw any money into this thing.

 Who ever had driven an 2 wheeled EUC, which tire wise is the same with, never ever will make a step onto a device, where the tire defines your complete ride....thats not only my opinion, other experinced riders like @Keith for example probably say the same

The smallest bump on a  ride, will get you away from the path you want to go....going down curbs, which make no problem for an nomall EUC at all, will get to an horrifying experience...with an Handle bar that will even get more ugly, as you now have this bar pendling or forcing you to the right or left side. 

This video shows the efect of the wide tire in combination with the handle bar quite good:

 

Just look at how, even on this straight road, the complete time the rider needs to adjust, react on the handle bar.

This device type is NO proper commuting or last mile device...its at maximum a nice toy.

 

Then the announced speed and range dates...

This thing has 15cells in 2times parallel...this voltage is pretty much outdated technic nowadys for a self balancing unit and i am pretty sure it has not much torque or power. First test devices that only run 15kmh...instead of the announced 15miles/h (at start they announced 20miles/32kmh,haha) speak for themself.

This is not meant to been bashing...thats an conclusion from driving 2wheeled EUC, Segways and mini pro‘s. Before spending ANY money at least i would wait for some reviews of experienced EUC or other SBU riders....Otherwise there will be a big disappointment...

Edited by KingSong69
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at 799 delivered it’s worth a look. euc’s aren’t going anywhere as last mile transportation. more likely get outlawed as their numbers increase. in america, with lawyers chomping at the bit, if u have any money, u had better not be riding an euc anywhere, except ur private property. because if an accident happens, u will be sued to the poorhouse.  my euc’s will never leave the ranch until a lawful place to ride them exists and probably not then. so anyway, money back guarantee if it’s junk.

77D5D131-8655-40C4-B68E-CFDDE943E3E0.jpeg

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I didnt speak about the legal issues, where btw this thing is no way better, i spoke about driving abilities and issues, where i got -a tiny bit- experience

But Ok, Some have to learn the hard way., luckily it are only thousand bucks. perhaps at least the right tire pressure is stamped onto the Go Kart tire...

Edited by KingSong69
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12 minutes ago, kasenutty said:

My wife is a city prosecutor in wa state and says no one in the US law community is concerned with my weird toy scooter. 

not until u hurt some one. ask her if u will get sued and will ur homeowners cover u? seriously, ask her.

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